Humans

Post anything on anything here

Moderator: Moderators

Postby ai » Tue Jul 21, 2009 8:57 pm

Flying Steel wrote:Can you prove or provide evidence of that?

I can't prove anything, I don't even know exactly what you would want me to prove. But anyway, we know that we can die and that we are going to die. I believe animals knows this as well, why else would they want to protect themselves or their 'children' from other species? And don't just say 'instinct', cause we have that instinct too (even without our intelligence) and if that's the case, then it's this 'instinct' that is the proof.
I've had a female cat who had kitties, my parents killed them, she went for days and days looking for them, making noises (meow meow and some others) and generally going around mourning for not finding them. (PS on this note, dolphins do also know they can die and do mourn their own kind)

The next time she had two more kitties though, we kept them (thank goodness) and she didn't have to feel that pain again.

We can never get any proof that animals know they will die unless we actually ask them, and we can't do that as we don't understand them. But just because we cannot understand them we cannot _assume_ that they are stupid 'fers' who doesn't understand anything. Give them more credit for pete's sake. People should stop thinking we are so damn special, we really aren't.
ai
Forum addon
 
Posts: 2131
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 3:54 pm
Location: Behind you

Postby Captain Haddock » Tue Jul 21, 2009 10:14 pm

ai wrote:I've had a female cat who had kitties, my parents killed them, she went for days and days looking for them, making noises (meow meow and some others) and generally going around mourning for not finding them. (PS on this note, dolphins do also know they can die and do mourn their own kind)

The next time she had two more kitties though, we kept them (thank goodness) and she didn't have to feel that pain again.

That's quite sad...
Odd-toed ungulate!
Captain Haddock
Forum addon
 
Posts: 1000
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2006 3:57 pm

Postby morfar » Wed Jul 22, 2009 7:18 am

Yes, evidence show that other animals miss and mourn their dead family and friends.
Yes, evidence show that other animals protect them self and the others around them against dangers.
But there's an explanation to this. It's called Evolution by Natural Selection :)
While I am not a biologist. I have read and seen biologist talk about this.

But they claim there is no evidence they know the concept of death by age, for example. Animals know that fire and cliffs is dangerous, they are raised that way. And their ancestors had cute babies because they avoided these dangers.
morfar
Site Admin
 
Posts: 938
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2006 6:08 pm
Location: The Island

Postby ai » Wed Jul 22, 2009 8:33 am

morfar wrote:Animals know that fire and cliffs is dangerous, they are raised that way. And their ancestors had cute babies because they avoided these dangers.

Yes, they were raised like that, but that's not the only reason. Why avoid danger if you think you'll live forever? Why run if a predator tries to kill and eat you?
This is not only because of how they were raised, this is instinct as well. If you didn't know you can die you would just stand there like a morron when a cliff rock falls right on top of you. If one didn't know you can die why would you want to get out of quicksand or bodies of water from fear you'd die/drown?

Well, for me, there's enough evidence that the animals know about (their own) death. However, science might need really hard evidence before going the same route. Why do we even assume they don't know in the first place? As Flying Steel said, is it because we want to justify killing them? That we don't want to feel guilty? Are we so arrogant in thinking we're so damn special that we're the ONLY ones that know anything about life? Give me a break, as I said, give the animals (and insects) more credit than this.

I think that assuming animals don't know about their death is as stupid as assuming that if you buy a drink to a girl at a bar she will sleep with you.
ai
Forum addon
 
Posts: 2131
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 3:54 pm
Location: Behind you

Postby The mysterious Mr. 4m » Wed Jul 22, 2009 9:29 am

Why do you try to avoid death, anyway? What makes you think it's bad? I don't believe other animals understand the concept of dying as in not existing anymore like we do. After all, it's one of our advantages that we are capable of grasping complicated and surreal concepts. Any phobics around? Fear isn't always reasonable or an indicator for outstanding intellect. Even _i_ am phobic! Not much, tho, because my fascination for spiders is a strong motivator to overcome my fear.

Oh, and what is intelligence? Is it building cars and streets? Does the usefulness justify the many that die in accidents? Or overweight? I was shocked recently when i discovered what was considered "far". And i'm at home most of my time! The number of transportation units should be limited.... ah, hear me rant.
4m [PB] (amoebios)

This is Your world.
The mysterious Mr. 4m
Forum addon
 
Posts: 1402
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 6:03 pm
Location: germany

Postby AnArKiSt » Wed Jul 22, 2009 11:59 am

4m wrote:Even _i_ am phobic! Not much, tho, because my fascination for spiders is a strong motivator to overcome my fear.


No matter how badass you think you are, there is always a spider to prove you wrong. :(
My will be done.
AnArKiSt
Alien
 
Posts: 176
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 6:41 am
Location: Behind a firewall.

Postby ai » Wed Jul 22, 2009 12:17 pm

4m wrote:Why do you try to avoid death, anyway? What makes you think it's bad?

I personally am not afraid to die and I don't actually see it as a bad thing. I can't wait to die and see what happens (although I have a pretty good and accurate idea) -_^, just that I will not go down without a fight.
But the concept 'fear of death' is more along the lines 'preserving the species'. Oh and also, fear of pain, not the actual death part. Death is nice compared to the pain before it, unless you're lucky and go down really fast. :P
ai
Forum addon
 
Posts: 2131
Joined: Sun Mar 05, 2006 3:54 pm
Location: Behind you

Postby Flying Steel » Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:09 pm

morfar wrote:Yes, evidence show that other animals miss and mourn their dead family and friends.
Yes, evidence show that other animals protect them self and the others around them against dangers.
But there's an explanation to this. It's called Evolution by Natural Selection :)
While I am not a biologist. I have read and seen biologist talk about this.


Right, and that all applies to us as well.

But they claim there is no evidence they know the concept of death by age, for example.


You don't think they've seen members of their pack succumb to old age? To die without a dramatic and obvious cause?

Animals know that fire and cliffs is dangerous, they are raised that way. And their ancestors had cute babies because they avoided these dangers.


And once again, this applies to us human animals as well.
Flying Steel
Keyboard killer
 
Posts: 623
Joined: Fri May 08, 2009 9:13 pm

Postby morfar » Wed Jul 22, 2009 5:04 pm

Flying Steel wrote:And once again, this applies to us human animals as well.

Yes, we all have the same origin. But we share most history with chimpanzee of course.
morfar
Site Admin
 
Posts: 938
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2006 6:08 pm
Location: The Island

Postby tundramagi » Wed Jul 22, 2009 6:40 pm

Taiyo.uk wrote:Decentralised cerebellum


Imagine if you took the diffrent parts of a CPU and placed them, rather than micrometers away from each other, feet away from eachother. That CPU would be slow. You do not want a decentralised cerebellum, unless you want to slowwwww in thought.
tundramagi
Forum addon
 
Posts: 974
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 4:53 pm

PreviousNext

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron