IllFonic's Nexuiz

[Urcscumug]

[First of all, a disclaimer: I'm nobody. I don't play Nexuiz regularly, I can't claim to be a member of this community, I'm not a developer, nor a contributor of any kind. I have no affiliations to anybody related to Nexuiz.

I'm just a guy with some understanding of the issues regarding the Nexuiz relicense and a hobby-level interest in FOSS and software licenses. I'm also part of a fellow game community (Tremulous) so I can empathize with you guys.

I'd like to share my knowledge. I'm hoping it will clear the air. I'm putting some time and thought into this so please read it through at least once. (If you don't have the time, I've marked key ideas so you can skim through.) Thank you.]

1 IS WHAT HAPPENED LEGAL?

What makes up Nexuiz, the game:
* The engine (Dark Places).
* The game data (artwork, maps, models, textures, sounds etc.)
* The name.

1.1 IS TRANSFERING OWNERSHIP OF THE ENGINE AND DATA LEGAL?

Yes.

The engine and the game data fall under copyright law. Since Illfonic claims to have signed contracts with certain legal entities regarding the engine and game data, it automatically means (in order for the contracts to make sense) that the legal entities they signed with were the sole copyright holders for their respective stuff (source code, artwork etc.)

It has been mentioned above that SVN access to the Dark Places engine source code was conditioned by assigning all copyright to Forest Hale or Alien Trap (the company). That would make Forest Hale/Alien Trap and ID Software (the original developer) the sole copyright holders. Also, it has been mentioned in this thread that Illfonic got in touch and secured rights from the relevant copyright holders for the game data (maybe all of it, maybe just the parts that interested them).

If all that is true, it means that Illfonic now has a legal right to the engine and the game data. Of course, that may mean lots of things. The terms of the contracts are unknown; there may be more (or less) involved than full copyright transfer. There may be just licensees, with certain rights.

Nevermind. What it means is that Illfonic got a copy of the engine and data with which they can do as they please.

Note: If something slipped by and there are pieces of code or artwork for which Illfonic doesn't have the rights, the copyright holders for those pieces may raise some legal claim. That is pure speculation without any proof. Occam's Razor suggests that Illfonic will have taken all precautions. Then again, there's human error, laziness and stupidity. If any of you wishes to investigate further, do so.

1.2 IS TAKING OVER THE "NEXUIZ" NAME LEGAL?

Yes.

Names/brands fall under trademark law, not copyright. To have the rights to a trademark, you have to register it, and you have to actively protect it, in order to be able to claim rights to it and not lose those rights by being idle about it.

AFAIK, Alien Trap owns a trademark for "Nexuiz". Presumably, they have transferred it to Illfonic (or otherwise permitted them to use it, possibly exclusively). That means that Illfonic has a legal right to the name "Nexuiz". You, the community, have none. You have a moral right, sure, but I'm afraid that doesn't count, legally.

2 WHAT HAPPENS NOW?

2.1 WHAT HAPPENS TO THE NAME "NEXUIZ"?

The trademark owner gets to decide who can and who cannot use the name. I have no idea what Illfonic intends to do, but please understand that as the trademark owner they could very well require everybody else to simply stop using "Nexuiz" dead cold. Even more, as a commercial company they will be forced, to at least some extent, to aggressively protect this brand they now own, from their competition.

If that happens, the community won't be able to use it anymore. They will have to find another name. And Illfonic will be able, legally, to make sure it's not too similar a name. Sorry. You have no choice in the matter. So you might as well stop proposing that Illfonic give up the name or let you use it. It. Won't. Happen.

Of course, I don't know what will happen. Since Kedhrin talks about a "GPL Nexuiz" it might hint that the community may be permitted to keep on using the name, at least for a while. Again, it might not.

Worst case scenario: the game you know and love as "Nexuiz" will have to be called something completely different in the future. Live with it.

2.2 WHAT HAPPENS TO THE ENGINE AND GAME DATA?

Nothing. Yes, that's right.

Why nothing? You have to understand how licensing works.

A person (or other legal entity, such as a company) creates something (code, artwork, etc.) In most countries, the creator automatically becomes the copyright holder. You can also aquire the copyright from the holder (presumably that's what Illfonic did).

The creator has full rights to the stuff they created, and other people have none. So, in order for other people to be able to do anything with that stuff, the creator gives them a license which allows them to do certain things.

The creator can give how many licenses he wants, and they can be different licenses for different people.

In this case, Alien Trap and ID Software already gave the world at large the Dark Places engine under the GPL license. Then they also issued another license (or transferred copyright ownership altogether, which would mean they stop being the holders) to Illfonic.

But the interesting thing is that copies of the stuff that was already distributed under GPL cannot be "recalled". You cannot go back and say that you want all those copies destroyed, returned, require people to stop using them or developing them etc. Same goes for the game data.

Basically, there's absolutely nothing anybody can do to stop the community from picking up from the last official release of Dark Engines and the release of the game data and keep on going.

Look at it like this. Nexuiz, as you all know and love it, is now twins. One brother goes to live with uncle Illfonic and one stays at home. They both start from the same place. They are identical. But they will evolve in different ways in the future. How -- that depends on you, the community, vs Illfonic. Each party will take their twin in a different direction.

You haven't lost anything. Illfonic cannot take anything from you. If their game becomes a success and yours dissapears it will be mainly because of what you do, not about what they do. Here's hoping they both will do great.

2.3 WHAT HAPPENS TO THE WEB SITES AND DOMAINS?

Unfortunately, the trademark owner controls all kinds of uses of the brand. This includes domain names. This means that, worst case scenario, all domains that contain "Nexuiz" and are deemed undesirable by Illfonic can be asked to give it up or get sued otherwise.

Nexuiz.com is currently owned by Lee. I assume it will be formally passed over to Illfonic representatives. They own the website now and Kedhrin has already mentioned some of the plans they have for it. Be content with the small type mention of "GPL Nexuiz". IMHO, it will be gone at some point.

alientrap.org is also owned by Lee, and the website too. This means the forum, the website etc. You, the community, have to ask yourselves what ties remain between you and Alien Trap. Because, should the worst come to pass, you may discover that you are now strangers on a stranger's website. This means that an important part of what makes the community (the website) may cease to exist.

I'm not saying it will happen (soon, or ever). But it can and it might. You have to face reality.

3 WHAT SHOULD THE COMMUNITY DO

Please note that these are just mere suggestions.

* Keep the goodwill going between the community and Illfonic/Alien Trap. If for nothing else but for the fact that you can do a lot of harm to them and them to you. But it doesn't need to be like that. They don't have to wipe you out, and you don't have to call them names and say they "stole" things.

* Identify your de-facto leaders. Then see which of them will take responsability in these trying times and are willing to actually lead you.

* Start thinking of a new name. Pick one ASAP.

* Get organized. You will need a domain name, a website, and a forum first of all. Get cracking on moving the forum contents from Alien Trap to your own site and your own install of phpBB (if Alien Trap will be willing to assist you). Start migrating contents (downloads, screenshot galleries etc.) to the new site. Then you will need all kinds of developer tools (code repository, bug tracker etc.) Here's a suggestion: you can start at SourceForge, which offers all of these things (and more) for free.

* Learn from what happened here. If you don't want this to happen again, make sure in the future that no single person or group of persons has full control. I don't know if the Nexuiz community is big enough, strong enough and dedicated enough to put together a legal entity to represent their interests in the future. I'm talking about an organization, an association, a foundation etc. with a publicly elected board of directors. There are other FOSS projects that do this. It certainly would simplify legal matters and make sure the community is represented from now on properly. Or, you can put your trust in a handful of people and hope for the best. There's even more FOSS projects that do that.

Thanks for reading.

[cortez]

We have many things planned for the community existing, including giving away some of our hard work on the source code - for free, crediting the original community in the credits (as supplied by the community) as well as Beta Invites and potentially free copies of the game. These are things I can talk about and want to talk about. As well as much much more, including features, how we work, what our work flow is etc.

firstly, i would like to thank you, that you start a real conversation with us and do talk about the for US relevant questions like the future of or beloved pc version.
secondly, for my side i appreciate your offers something like beta keys, but just to let you know im one of many who dont own a console, so it seems to be useless for the ones without a console. A small texture pack or some improved player animations (eventhough its just one animation for all models) seem to be a more usefull offer, from which the whole community will gain profit

[Silica Gel: Do Not Eat]

@Kedhrin
I disagree with the decision on the name, but I will keep my grievances out of this thread .
I did check out some of the concept artwork on your myspace and it looks really nice. Perhaps you could post some of it on the forums.
I am also curious to what weapons you are using in the console version and if you modified them at all .

[Kedhrin]

We have many things planned for the community existing, including giving away some of our hard work on the source code - for free, crediting the original community in the credits (as supplied by the community) as well as Beta Invites and potentially free copies of the game. These are things I can talk about and want to talk about. As well as much much more, including features, how we work, what our work flow is etc.

firstly, i would like to thank you, that you start a real conversation with us and do talk about the for US relevant questions like the future of or beloved pc version.
secondly, for my side i appreciate your offers something like beta keys, but just to let you know im one of many who dont own a console, so it seems to be useless for the ones without a console. A small texture pack or some improved player animations (eventhough its just one animation for all models) seem to be a more usefull offer, from which the whole community will gain profit

The texture pack may not be relevant as most textures that could be used for BSP are rather simple. Almost all of our textures are made for custom unwraps, some are tiling but I don't see how you could use them without a massive global revamp of all your assets (like what we're doing). The player models may be possible - keep in mind when we acted these animations out we kept in mind the armor on our character concepts. So they may not be too good. However, we do have a shit ton of extra mocap animations that do require animations. We can also potentially offer tutorials on how to use the new animation system (which allow for upper and lower body blends as well as other improvements). This is further down the road, however.

[tZork]

I was about to make a lengthy reply to Kedhrin's reopening post here, but while reading it, it looks hes saying "say things i want to hear or i wont listen" and thus making it a fruitless conversation. (hes a professional btw. scnr). its nice to hear your finally considering some flowback, tough be it strange you tool until now to mention it.

Heres a some advice for you, if your honest about wanting a dialog. things like:

I am already talking about WAY more than any other publisher would ever talk to you guys about. Most people in the industry would call me insane for even getting on your IRC room and opening myself up like I am to an open source community.

Will not further that goal. In fact im fairly sure it will piss some ppl off. Or can you explain why we should accept that you behave rudely just because the ppl in your biz usually do? And the parallel to other publishers is somewhat irrelevant since this is far from a normal situation.

[Kedhrin]

@Kedhrin
I disagree with the decision on the name, but I will keep my grievances out of this thread .
I did check out some of the concept artwork on your myspace and it looks really nice. Perhaps you could post some of it on the forums.
I am also curious to what weapons you are using in the console version and if you modified them at all .

we'll be doing some releases of the concept artwork soon, there is much more.

here are the weapons being kept and whats going on

This is being tweaked for team based game play - think Gears of War or Killzone 2 how there are 2 factions, however, it is pretty much only a aesthetic and fiction setting oversetting

All weapons now have melee combat at any time

Shotgun - Forsellian and Kavussari both have their own Shotgun they spawn with
Machine gun - it is the weapon the Kavussari is holding on the website (red team)
Hagar - Kavussari weapon - small white gun in screenshots
Rocket Launcher - Kavussari weapon - controlling the rocket after fire left on by default
Mortar - Kavussari Weapon
ElectroGun - Forsellian Weapon
Nex - Forsellian Weapon, he is holding it on the website (blue team)
HLAC - Forsellian Weapon - the other blue colored weapon in the pictures
CryLink - Forsellian Weapon

This is it for now, please keep in mind a lot of things (such as InstaGib) is part of the new dynamic mutator system. I will talk about this later it is just not fully designed yet. Right now we have things initially in, its still very early to tell what adjustments we'll be making. Yes we did take the laser out, only because it isn't as useful when using thumb sticks as well as the keymapping of a controller being too filled up.

[MirceaKitsune]

As I said before, the name will remain Nexuiz for now. This will not change right now. It is not up for debate. We as IllFonic want you guys to be apart of our community and to be happy. Some things we cannot do. If the name not changing is one of those things, I cannot do anything to change your mind. I am sorry - but it is what it is. If you think an NDA is useless and how it prevents me from saying things is an excuse - i have nothing to say to you either. I appreciate those of you who are asking us about the name change and giving suggestions very politely. Please understand we are not going to change the name right now.

Just for the sake of it, I'm tempted to ask why. Why can't the name be changed, given that this is the main issue that upsets us most (and the effort that would be most highly appreciated on Illfonic's side)? Is it because of a signed paper? I know we keep bugging you about it, but this is the issue which affects us most. We'd like to know why you can't do such a small effort that could fix more than half of this story? And why so strongly determined to have no debate on it?

This thread was hijacked about complaints about us taking the name, which should have been brought to me in private or on another thread - not blasted on a thread where people will look to it for information on what we are doing. THIS is why it was locked. It is not a censorship issue. If I wanted to censor you, I would've just deleted the thread. I can be a complete dick and flex my muscle but I'm not going to do that, that is not our company lifestyle. People are insulting us on our own areas as well. We do not delete these things. We are professionals.

I agree some people were rude. I myself try to be nice, but you must understand that many people in the community are VERY upset about this. It is to be expected, even if our community is generally nice (or so it seems to me and other members). Even if you might really not meant any harm, you do appear as someone who has hijacked us and ripped us. It's difficult for many members to force theirselves to stay calm while envisioning you as that... this has hurt some of us badly.

And (nothing harmful nor hateful intended) I am totally and beyond doubt sure that no person (who is at a normal level of consciousness) could have possibly not guessed that doing such a thing would hurt us greatly. I mean think about this: If you had your own project you have been working on for years, then one day another project named the same way started and that project took your website, how would you feel? Would you not feel like us once you suddenly found out about it? It's IMPOSSIBLE that anyone would not predict this.

I came on the IRC channel and was way willing to talk about the project and what we are doing (http://nexuizfiles.com/illfonic/kedhrin ... iscussion/) - BTW I am not the Lead Programmer
I am already talking about WAY more than any other publisher would ever talk to you guys about. Most people in the industry would call me insane for even getting on your IRC room and opening myself up like I am to an open source community. But I did it and I'm trying. I'm hearing from all over my peers in the industry to just stop talking to you guys but I insist on not giving up. This is not marketing mumbo-jumbo. If you don't believe it, I cannot convince you.

If you want to threaten me with press threats or otherwise, I have nothing to say to you. Do what you want, I wont even try to stop you.

I admit I find it a nice and rare thing for the owner of a commercial company to be this open, so at least for that I congratulate you. But once again, you must understand that most of us are (rightfully) upset at you, and the scars are too deep to be healed easily.

We have many things planned for the community existing, including giving away some of our hard work on the source code - for free, crediting the original community in the credits (as supplied by the community) as well as Beta Invites and potentially free copies of the game. These are things I can talk about and want to talk about. As well as much much more, including features, how we work, what our work flow is etc.

But, if you choose to ignore this, i will gladly return the favor and ignore you.

Thanks.

That is a nice thing, but sadly cannot fix the harm that was done. It's like stealing a wallet with 1000$ in it and giving 5$ back to whom you stole it from.

Lastly, in the hope that this wasn't done only and only for the money... the only thing I can ask you openly is to learn from this mistake, and know not to do it again. No community would ever be happy if their project got copied and partly stolen, unless that community has enough mental issues to keep them from developing anything at all. In case you might have not predicted the harm this would cause (again, I find that impossible to not predict) at least keep this in mind and not hurt other opensource project with a similar approach.

[Silica Gel: Do Not Eat]

Hey look a free copy of Nexuiz for the Xbox360!

http://www.gamespot.com/xbox360/action/ ... index.html

[Irritant]

Kenhdrin, obviously the biggest source of contention is the name. I think everyone can agree with this.

Initially, you said you cannot change the name. Now you're saying, you won't change the name "at this time". I sense a small backtrack here. Why?

As I said before, this console project has started off on a very bad note, due to the reaction of the community, and the news of such spreading through the interwebs faster than a wildfire. Maybe if you gave a good reason as to "why" you cannot change the name, to something that includes the word Nexuiz, but also separates it from the original game, people might be more understanding. Right now, people think it's not a matter of can't(because frankly, that makes no sense), but a matter of won't.

You say you're a businessman, but if you do not have the vision to see how this is unfolding, and why, than I really cannot help you, and believe it or not, I am trying to help you, and the Nexuiz community at the same time. I have nothing invested in Nexuiz, I did not work on the game, and am not really a true part of the community. Well I'm fairly sure you know who I am anyway, but that is beside the point. I would like to see the console project benefit the original game, and vice versa, but the rigidity in regards to the name will in fact undo it. Clearly you have to see that this poor relationship that exists with the Nexuiz community over the name will harm your project. So how will you work to rectify the situation?

[Lee_Stricklin]

Look, I've spent thousands of hours working on my own engine, I know what kind of effort went into this project. However I also know that contribution doesn't guarantee you'll get complete say in what happens. Truthfully anyone who contributes to a project like this is a pawn for the real people in charge (the AT ). You don't see people over at Polycount complaining about id using some of their concepts as a base for a project (in fact they are usually flattered) you people are just to attached to your toy, it's time to let it go and see it grow up.


EDIT:
Also, the source code is GPL'd not the name, if a big name company like EA came buy and gave you a C&D because you are using the name of a project they just started guess what! The courts will automatically side with EA if a suit starts because they own the Trademark.

You really just pissed me off with that comment about being attached to this "toy".