As i heard in Nexuiz 2.2 the nexgun will be reballanced. It makes less damage (140) and reloading lasts longer. (It can be tested on the RBI-servers).
I think reducing damage is ok, but i still don´t know, if i like the new shooting-speed. You have to follow the opponent very long with the crosshair, before being able to shoot again. You have to get used to hit the right moment when nexgun is ready again. Maybe it could help to have a visual effect on the nexgun model, so you can see that it has reloaded.
Maybe you get used to it during some hours. Don´t know.

So what do you think of these changes?

Btw, is it faster to switch from nex to another weapon and back to nex, than waiting for the nex to reload? Can´t test right now.

I'm in favor of the new weapon balance. The Nex gun was often used as some sort of assault weapon - that can be annoying. There are other guns, too - and they should be used from time to time, too.

Many people complained that regular matches (especially CTF) turned into a semi-minstagib. That's not always fun.

According to my server stats, the Nex is still the #1 weapon, but with only about 5% advantage to the RL. Before the difference was more like 15% to 20%...

So I think the change does work out.

SavageX:
I read your post before you edited. I could not get the point.


I agree, that using the nexgun can sometimes be annoying. Mainly if you play against someone who has great skills in using it. Reducing the damage should help in that case and that´s ok for me.
We should not forget, that if you wanna be real deadly with the nex, it takes great skills and practise. In my opinion you can´t compare that with "snipering" in CTF. It´s just the point, that the nex is probably the best weapon for defending.

Right now, i think that changing the speed of reloading is not the right way. But maybe i see it different, if i get used to the new nexgun.

Someone who has good skills in using the RL (not me ) or the mortar can be as deadly as someone who uses the nex. That can be annoying, too.

Gut_Eater wrote:SavageX:
I read your post before you edited. I could not get the point.

That's why I edited it

The point was that I am in favor of the new nex values.

The problem is just that the nex was able deal 1500 damage in 10 seconds with rocketlauncher 1300 with point black hits, electro 888, mortar 920. The rocketlauncher is a close range weapon because of the slow rockets so its ok it can deal much damage because its very hard to do all that damage. The other guns are fine, the electro is a bit weaker then mortar but has its combo which makes up. But the nexgun had insanlly high damage/time. Also consider that fact that 5 years ago instant hit weapons were a art but these days ping gets lower and lower which makes it easier to hit.. Also you can play hide/shoot with the nexgun so you get very hard to hit with other weapons. Just hide, get out shortly and fire. Unless its done stupidly you are hard to hit over a long distance with other guns. Now it can no longer spawnkill and its also slower. Its still a good gun for defending and stopping people but its longer the BEST ATTACK weapon.

I think it is good to lower the usefulness of the Nex. In 1on1 the Nex is dominating. And spawnfrags should be greatly reduced now; so more skill and smarter weapon selecting is in front of us

The alternative would be reducing damage below 100, but that makes it much less useful for snipers since it doesn't "usually" instant kill any more then. So when doing that, the Nex will stay an assault weapon and get less used for long range (maybe in favor of the MG).

Hmm i get your point, that you want to make the nex a bit weaker, so that it fits better to the damage of the other weapons.
I also think it´s good to get rid of spawn-kills.

I am a bit afraid of what the lower reloading-time will do to minstagib.

I'll also try and make my t-Nex if i manage to find the time to learn QC during the holidays.. I know I've tlked about this for a year or so, but now i hope to relly do it (the t-nex is the continued work of the charging nex tryout that was made some time ago)

Gut_Eater wrote:I am a bit afraid of what the lower reloading-time will do to minstagib.

Right now it defaults to the same timings but they have extra variables so one can change them easily..
However i think it will not change anything, just make instagib a bit slower. You just aim like now and if you hit, well you, if you miss you have to wait longer before you can fire again but that is true for everyone.. I do not think you will become a 'sitting duck' while waiting for the reload..

esteel wrote:Right now it defaults to the same timings but they have extra variables so one can change them easily.

I think it would not be good to have other nexgun-settings in minstagib than in normal game.

esteel wrote:However i think it will not change anything, just make instagib a bit slower.

Now that is what i am afraid of. Nexuiz itsself is a real fast game, but playing minstagib is even more fast action. And that´s what i like.

esteel wrote:I do not think you will become a 'sitting duck' while waiting for the reload..

Otherwise i might look very cool, if all would do it like this. We could impose penalty points for players who don´t crouch after shooting.

It's a lot better with the rebalanced nex. If people want to play Instagib, fine, play Instagib, the standard play should not be like it though. I think the rocket launcher is better than the nex, you just have to know how to use it. It doubles as a defensive weapon which the nEx really can't.

Interesting, in my hands the Mortar is much better than the RL...

divVerent wrote:Interesting, in my hands the Mortar is much better than the RL...

That's part of the point. People have different preferences so different people will use different weapons. Weapons should be balanced like this so that people have to experiment with the weapons in different situations and find their favourite. That's much better than everyone using the Nex. I would say RL is my best weapon, then electro, mortar, nex.

Firstly, thanks to ai to linking me here.

So the damage is going to be reduced, by how much?

Seems reducing the re-fire rate, trying to make the gun more rail-like...

was there a vote for these changes? if so where can i find it, if not, why not?

i agree that the damage should be lowered, ive said this for a long time now, then again
nexuiz should have some kind of proper COLOUR armour system like 200/100/50 maybe, but i can imagine the armour rot will have some effect with that.

and why has it taken like a year for this to be changed, and now in such a late version of the game?

The weapons are constantly changing with each release, so I have no problem with this. The game and balance keep getting more and more refined but it still has it's basic idea.
Currently the Nex isn't being used like it should, and other weapons should dominate it in certain situations. With the new config I think the Nex will still keep it's main power, which is long range timed out sniper like shots, but will lose some of it's strength in fast assault type battles, which was the original indent of the weapon.

Ok fair enough, but i'd like someone to answer my other questions from before.

The case with esteel posting the strength of each weopen, shouldn't the shotgun value be lowered as well?

i can't remember the exact damage each pellet does, but dont you think the secondary fire is too powerful compared to the other weopens if were talking about its potential damage.
need

As i see it a few of the weopens refining not just the nex, so why not refine ones that need to be, all in one go.

I think I'm in favor of nerfing it a bit. Even though I'll admit I'm one of the type to use it for assault, I know that it throws weapon balance off quite a bit, weighting it almost entirely towards the nex.

k0jak wrote:and why has it taken like a year for this to be changed, and now in such a late version of the game?

Gaming behaviours change over time. Nexuiz now has a pretty stable community with a fair amount of experienced players. It has become quite obvious that more and more people are using the Nex gun as a weapon that slices and dices in all situations. That's not what the Nex is supposed to be.

divVergent collected some pretty conclusive statistics that pointed towards the imbalance. Toning the nex down a bit improved weapon balance, as can be seen over at http://mensa.ath.cx/~polzer/nexlog/totals.html

We're claiming that Nexuiz is focused on "perfect weapon balancing". To keep this true we have to react.

The Nexgun is used most because it is powerful and it can be used for sniping as well as closer combat. Therefore, it really doesn't have that many limits compared to other weapons. As a comparison, the RL is powerful, but it launches more slowly and you can accidently kill yourself with splash damage if you're not careful.

I know the Nexgun is a knockoff of the Quake Railgun, but I wish that it would be split into two offshoot weapons. One of them would be for a less accurate and less powerful run-and-gun type of weapon, like a mini-rail gun with a little less power and faster reload than the Nexgun. The other one would be a legitimate sniper weapon. The sniper weapon would take longer to reload and would require that you are standing still to aim well. It would use up more energy points. It could even slow down your speed while you are using it. It should be intended for sniping, which should include some downsides. Right now, there aren't that many downsides to sniping with the Nexgun, and it is extremely powerful, so lots of people use it.

It seems like a lot of things in Nexuiz are taken from Quake. I think Nexuiz could be more enjoyable if it became more unique and less quake-like. That was my thinking when I made the suggestion of removing telefragging[/url]

shouldn't the shotgun value be lowered as well?

The shotgun's secondary should be two shots instead of three, because it is a two-barrel shotgun.

Dokujisan wrote:

shouldn't the shotgun value be lowered as well?

The shotgun's secondary should be two shots instead of three, because it is a two-barrel shotgun.

Not true for Nexuiz 2.2

Ahh, you're using that three-barrel model that someone suggested? That's a cool model.

Leave shotgun alone. But maybe raise power of primary I like that you start with a very good weapon. So the underdog in a 1on1 can come back... And not like Warsow when 1 player dominates all the time.
I like that Nexuiz tries to be unique, and should not copy other games. If we start copy other games, then we can just play the other games.
I agree with kojn on the armor part, 2-3 different armors would be nice (but a max value of 200-250, so one can't stack to immortality).

I think the shotgun's primary is okay. It's got just enough kick to let you not get face-owned when you spawn if you use it right. I wouldn't want it to become an easy mode gun, especially with how strategically it can already be used.

Really, what's the difference between primary and secondary fire of the shotgun? Afaik the secondary is exactly the same but fires three shots.. I is less accurate or what's the downside? Cause if there is none why even use primary?

I like the armour idea too and I also kinda liked Doku's nexgun idea, though not all of it. I like that you could switch back between fast railgun +less accurate, to sniper which gets lot stronger and kill anyone with one-two shots, and that it should take longer to reload. I'm not too keen about that "drop-speed" thing or that you would need to stand still to aim well. That starts to sound more like WW(2) games, I'm thinking more of UT2004 kinda sniper.

I wonder if part of the excessive strength of the nex derives not from hit damage or reload rate, but from the way it is incredibly easy to hit targets in Nexuiz? I know I can pull off shots regularly in Nexuiz that would be memorably lucky in other games (Q3, UT99 etc.). Is there a case for reducing the hitbox size on the player models to reduce the influence of the instant-hit weapons (the machine-gun secondary is also imo way too powerful due to this)?

No, the hitbox can't be reduced, player models ALREADY are partially outside of it...

but a second hitbox for the head and doing head shots might be nice (and lowering Nex damage for non-headshots) - if only it weren't direct copying from UT...

As for the stats on http://mensa.ath.cx/~polzer/nexlog/totals.html:

The numbers in the parentheses are some measure of winning probability - if weapon A has a score of a and weapon B has a score of b, the probability that someone holding weapon A kills someone holding a weapon B as opposed to the other way round is 0.5 + a - b. Of course, such a simple model doesn't hold perfectly, but it worked nicely for sorting the weapons. The actual numbers there are calculated as these numbers which fit the model best after a least squares sum estimate.

So Nex is still the strongest with about 0.13 more strength than the "explosive trio" of RL, Hagar, Mortar; Uzi is just slightly below them. Then, after 0.06, Crylink and Electro come (BTW, why is Electro so weak in the stats, can nobody use the combo right?), followed by shotgun. The very bottom place is held by the laser, which is to be expected since it is a special purpose weapon but often held by people who ran out of shotgun ammo.

So one could make the Nex still a bit weaker, but I think that would annoy players too much. Maybe in some later release.

A nice idea was also by someone in the IRC channel - to make the Nex only strong after a certain distance. If someone makes us a nice graphics effect for that (two beams hitting each other after some distance and then fusing into one), why not?

BTW, I wonder why the Nex doesn't dominate face any more... see http://mensa.ath.cx/~polzer/nexlog/tota ... s_nex.html

k0jak wrote:nexuiz should have some kind of proper COLOUR armour system like 200/100/50 maybe, but i can imagine the armour rot will have some effect with that.?

Can someone explain what is meant exactly with the colour armour system, please.

I like the idea of the nex unfolding max damage over a special distance and being less powerful in close range. So if you get attacked while aiming on someone in the distance, you can defend yourself basically with the nex without having to switch weapon. Also you don´t have to split the nex in two guns like Dokujisan suggested.
I don´t like the idea of having to stand still while using the nex. You would be easy prey for the Mortar or RL.