Gut_Eater wrote:Can someone explain what is meant exactly with the colour armour system, please.

He means like for instance yellow piece of armour would give you 50, green 100 and red 200.

divVerent wrote:A nice idea was also by someone in the IRC channel - to make the Nex only strong after a certain distance. If someone makes us a nice graphics effect for that (two beams hitting each other after some distance and then fusing into one), why not?

That would be awsome, I would have suggested that but didn't know if it could be done and if it could, how easy it would be to do that.

Gut_Eater wrote:

k0jak wrote:nexuiz should have some kind of proper COLOUR armour system like 200/100/50 maybe, but i can imagine the armour rot will have some effect with that.?

Can someone explain what is meant exactly with the colour armour system, please.

I like the idea of the nex unfolding max damage over a special distance and being less powerful in close range. So if you get attacked while aiming on someone in the distance, you can defend yourself basically with the nex without having to switch weapon. Also you don´t have to split the nex in two guns like Dokujisan suggested.
I don´t like the idea of having to stand still while using the nex. You would be easy prey for the Mortar or RL.

Color armor system: Having different armor types like in quake. Typical are yellow/red with 50/100 armor or green/yellow/red 50/100/200 armor. In some games you can't pickup a 'lower' armor if you still have more then what it would give you. Thats to let the underdog also get some armors. Yes its bad that some guys can manage to grap all the armor in Nexuiz with their perfect timing and this leaves the underdog too vulnerable. But I'm not sure how such a system would fit into Nexuiz though i see the need for it.
Also all the armor placement would have to be redone which is not that hard but requires someone to do it and the coding..

I'm against changing the nex to be affected by distance. One can only see AFTER the shot if it was high or low damage. The new reload timing already leaves one vulnerable after having missed. All the other guns are faster now, the mortar can even shoot twice in the meanwhile.. This already makes it weaker for closerange fights. And as Savage noticed on facing worlds its no longer the weapon number one. I must admit i'm puzzled by this but i guess one can see other guns are now useful too over some distance

On the other hand.. do the new settings really stop spawn kills? i have the impression the remaining 10 health (at most) are not enough to survive the 'grounding' from the shot..

i see what you mean with armour placement would have to be redone, but not on all maps surely?

and 200/100/50 was just an example, i think values such as 225/150/75 or 200/100/50

might be more fitting but it will depend upon a few things.

Such changes would make 1on1 more interesting since it should make the games more skilled.

another thing i often...well always think the armours are too small...i even hop over them at times, can the size be increased slightly? there too small in my oppinion.

morfar wrote:Leave shotgun alone. But maybe raise power of primary I like that you start with a very good weapon. So the underdog in a 1on1 can come back... And not like Warsow when 1 player dominates all the time.
I like that Nexuiz tries to be unique, and should not copy other games. If we start copy other games, then we can just play the other games.
I agree with kojn on the armor part, 2-3 different armors would be nice (but a max value of 200-250, so one can't stack to immortality).

Yea but the shotgun in 1on1 anyhow is way too powerful at times.. i've been next to a freshly spawned player and died with 80 odd health and some armour after 3 secondary fire hits...i mean come on

k0jak wrote:Yea but the shotgun in 1on1 anyhow is way too powerful at times.. i've been next to a freshly spawned player and died with 80 odd health and some armour after 3 secondary fire hits...i mean come on

Yes, but you have the same chance of doing that And should be more interesting.

it's way too powerful and you know it!

k0jak wrote:it's way too powerful and you know it!

Sorry, but the statistics disagree. They are clearly showing that the Shotgun is a better weapon than the Laser and sorta similiar powerful as the Crylink, which is powerful but needs skilled hands to be effective. It looses against all other weapons by a large margin.

I really don't see the problem to have a remotely usable weapon as starting weapon. If it's too powerful then just stick to it and enjoy this fair "advantage" as everybody has that weapon.

Gut_Eater wrote:Btw, is it faster to switch from nex to another weapon and back to nex, than waiting for the nex to reload? Can´t test right now.

Well, it is. Just tested on RBI-server. Don´t know if it will work in 2.2. Right now you can shoot and switch from nex to another weapon (works very fast with the mouse-wheel) and back to nex and shoot again without waiting for reload. Lol, you can shoot two or three times while your opponent shoots only on time.

Shotgun dmg is fine, but the amt of start ammo for it is to high, How often do you run outa sg ammo?

Hell it could be interesting to bump up the sg dmg even more and spawn with say 5 shells.

divVerent wrote:but a second hitbox for the head and doing head shots might be nice (and lowering Nex damage for non-headshots) - if only it weren't direct copying from UT...l

I brought this up in a thread a long time ago, and I still think it'd be a good idea. Yeah, it copies off of UT a bit, but I don't think it's that big of a deal, and in this case probably would help out a lot with weapon balance.

please DO NOT do this ... imo giving more damage tp headshots than to body hits is NOT good ...

The one point that I want to make is to not trust the statistics. I constantly see playerse use weapons and not know what they are doing, such as those who use the RL but never use the right-click feature. There are many, I'm sure, who use the shotgun but don't use the secondary fire. This does not mean that the shotgun isn't too powerful, for those who know how to use it. The stats don't always tell the whole story.

"I don´t like the idea of having to stand still while using the nex. You would be easy prey for the Mortar or RL.

Well, that's sort of the idea. You have to have some sort of downside to using a weapon to create balance. If you are going to establish a weapon as a sniper weapon, that weapon would be both powerful and accurate for long distance. Such a weapon needs to have compromises or it will throw the game off.

I suggestion splitting the Nex into two weapons so that you could have a weapon similar to the existing Nex that wasn't as powerful, but you could also have a good sniper weapon that made you more vulnerable. It is possible that the solution provided by others might have a similar effect. I'm talking about the idea where the Nex is more powerful at distances, but less powerful close up. Personally, I don't think that covers all of the bases. I think the "close up" fighting should reload quicker. I think the accuracy when sniping should improve considerably if you are staying completely still.

For example, I sometimes play Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter (GRAW) on the XBox 360 at my brother's house. They have sniper weapons in that game, but they make it nearly impossible to hit things at close distance when you are not looking through the scope. The idea is to balance the weapons and keep the sniper weapon from being too powerful. Personally, i think they go a little overboard in GRAW with sniper difficulty at close distances, but the premise is a good one.

GreEn`mArine wrote:please DO NOT do this ... imo giving more damage tp headshots than to body hits is NOT good ...

Can you please explain why? I haven't played games with this idea, but it sounds reasonable to have headshots cause more damage.

A point that is somewhat related that I've always meant to bring up is that the zoom really needs to be disabled for weapons other than the nex. I think it cheapens the value of it when middle-clicking can get you the same zoom for all other weapons as the secondary of the nex does.

tZork wrote:Shotgun dmg is fine, but the amt of start ammo for it is to high, How often do you run outa sg ammo?

Hell it could be interesting to bump up the sg dmg even more and spawn with say 5 shells.

Nooooo, please! One of the most aggravating things about playing on most maps is finding ammo immediately after you spawn. You are already vulnerable enough after you spawn. Limited ammo becomes a problem when there are more than 6 players and you have teammates who hog all of the weapons and ammo. When Facing worlds has 14+ players, I spend most of my time trying to find weapons and ammo. Of course, I'm thinking CTF, not DM.

Shoe wrote:A point that is somewhat related that I've always meant to bring up is that the zoom really needs to be disabled for weapons other than the nex. I think it cheapens the value of it when middle-clicking can get you the same zoom for all other weapons as the secondary of the nex does.

Isn't zoom just a field of view and mouse sensitivity change? How can you disable something that is meant to be configurable game-wide?

Dokujisan wrote:

Shoe wrote:A point that is somewhat related that I've always meant to bring up is that the zoom really needs to be disabled for weapons other than the nex. I think it cheapens the value of it when middle-clicking can get you the same zoom for all other weapons as the secondary of the nex does.

Isn't zoom just a field of view and mouse sensitivity change? How can you disable something that is meant to be configurable game-wide?

If that's all it is, then maybe something should be done to the nex's secondary to make it more unique and stand out as more of a sniper weapon.

Shoe wrote:If that's all it is, then maybe something should be done to the nex's secondary to make it more unique and stand out as more of a sniper weapon.

Heh, redo the model a little bit to add something like a sniperscope to it, then when it fires secondary it's a bullet or red laser that shoots and not a blueish beam

@Dokujin: That's my whole point with the "standing-still-when-firing-nex" thing. If that happens it becomes too real war realistic and Nexuiz is (at least for me) not that kind of game. This is a fast pase game, that sort of thing would not fit here, the ones that stand still dies (at least when I'm around ). And I think generally people would not like that in a game like this.

Dokujisan wrote:

tZork wrote:Shotgun dmg is fine, but the amt of start ammo for it is to high, How often do you run outa sg ammo?

Hell it could be interesting to bump up the sg dmg even more and spawn with say 5 shells.

Nooooo, please! One of the most aggravating things about playing on most maps is finding ammo immediately after you spawn. You are already vulnerable enough after you spawn. Limited ammo becomes a problem when there are more than 6 players and you have teammates who hog all of the weapons and ammo. When Facing worlds has 14+ players, I spend most of my time trying to find weapons and ammo. Of course, I'm thinking CTF, not DM.

hoging teammates and overcrowded maps are a problem, but not one that should affect weapon balancing decisions ,) The thing is that you do spawn with one of the most powerfull closerange weapons and nuff ammo to take down the hurds of hell. The shotgun secondary does 6 dmg per pellet, fires 10 pellets per shot and dos that three times. Thats 180 points of pain. And this will cost you 3 shells. you spawn with *50* of them. thats almost 3000 worth of damage. A single nexgunblast costs you 5 cells, and does 150 dmg. Making it 5 shells at spawn would be to harsh, tahts true. but whats the point in having ammo for the tun if you spawn with more then you can use?

ai wrote:This is a fast pase game, that sort of thing would not fit here, the ones that stand still dies (at least when I'm around Razz).

Well, people currently use the Nex for sniping, so I'm not sure if you and I are playing the same game

I think you're misunderstanding my suggestion. My suggestion would make sniping slightly more challenging because they would have to use a weapon that was only good for long range. They would have to switch weapons quickly if someone start attacking them in close combat. Currently, if someone is sniping with the nex and they are attacked in close combat, they can defend themselves pretty well because the Nex is good at long range and short range.

Currently : The Nexgun is a powerful sniping weapon and a powerful short range weapon

My suggestion : the Nexgun would be a semi-powerful short range weapon that reloads more quickly and uses 5 cells, and there would be a sniper weapon that would be a powerful sniping weapon that loads slowly, requires you to stand still, and uses more cells.

It creates two more specialized weapons instead of having one multi-purpose weapon.

The game is supposed to be unrealistic. Giving headshots adds realism imo, beside this I always hated UT since UT99 for this headshot thing. I was glad that I found a game that is different to UT as it is rather going like Quake1/2/3, having a instant hit railgun that is powerful.

I do agree that the nexgun is too strong atm, because it is powerful at close range and for sniping. But I think that upping reload time and reducing dmg to avoid spawnkills is a change that is powerful enough to have the weapon to be more "appropiate" compared to the other weapons.

and about this "remove zoom for other weapons": I still try to figure out how to zoom using middle mouse button and then fire with left mousebutton, when my forefinger can only press one of these buttons at the same time. Beside this zoom is nothing that makes sense for any weapon beside nexgun, because you only zoom when the enemy is far away:
Shotgun: makes no sense because it won't make any dmg on distance
MG: only weapon where it makes sense to use it because of alt fire
Crylink: see shotgun
Electro: lol, you're serious ? until the shot hits the target it already dodged the sht
mortar: totally unusable, you need the overview to know how high to aim in order to compensate gravity of the projectiles
RL: see electro
Hagar: see electro

so removing zoom isn't of any sense anyway

making the nex slower seems more important to me than making it less strong

Right, it is supposed to be the "usually instant-kill" weapon. When comparing to UT for example, the Nex is supposed to be more like the sniper rifle than like the shock rifle. So it does need a high damage, somewhere above 100. 140, the new value, means that it still can spawnkill, but doesn't always succeed (depends on the angle to the floor when you hit), which should make life a bit less annoying on maps like facing_worlds_nex. The reason is that you can get extra 25 points of damage for hitting the floor or a wall after getting pushed away by the Nex shot.

With a damage value below 125 for example, it would NEVER be able to spawnkill. 125 however is already noticably lower than 150.

I like the zoom with all weapons.

I can actually hit pretty good with the laser at long range.

I also love my sniper machinegun.

No idea what to do about the Nex.

Let it fire tomahawks!

One fine day I shold realy read all the posts, just to know what will be changed with the nex in 2.2

Baout blocking zoom in other weapons then the nex: like Green said, zooming with other weapons is pointless for combat, but not totally useless, for just to see around, wtf is happening on the other side of the map

Not much was changed.. the damage is now 140 instead of 150 which leads to fewer spawnkills. They are still possible though if there is a wall nearby of if the angle you hit with is right. Also the nexgun is slower now. It take 1.5 seconds to reload instead of 1.0 like before.
Nothing was changed about the zoom though.. its still possible with every weapon.

Yesterday i played some minstagib on DCC. I think nexuiz 2.2 was running. It was like this:

"A step to the right,
a step to the left,
back to the middle,
crouch and shoot"

"Now one step forward,
and turn around,
clap your hands,
crouch and shoot"

Unfortunately i had not the right country-music running. And i had some probs to let the player-model clap its hands.

Now seriously, the nexgun-modification steals lots of the fun i had playing minstagib before. It used to be very fast and with lots of action. Now it seems that people stand together and make some kind of group-dance.

I suggest to think again about another way to get more ballanced weapons.

The only other solution would be reducing the Nex to a shock rifle primary, which isn't an option.

However, we did expect this, so it is possible to let Minstagib use another Nex refire than normal gameplay - we just were not sure if we should change the default too.

If the "normal" nex won't change then IMO so shouldn't the minstabig nex either unless the server master does it manually, as I use to play minstagib to practice my nex skills, and if that nex is different than the normal one this practice won't do me any good. People hopefully will get used to the new settings, sooner or later they will anyway.