Not sure where a topic like this belongs so I posted it here.
Anywho, like many of you, I got playing the ladder a bit and reading post-battle comments...watching videos of matches and realized that something I thought was done by noobs was common practice here.
Spawn kills!
To my knowledge, this is something either done out of reflex or if you're a pussy. Now please don't get insulted by my comments in this post, but many of the good players I had respect for, seem to spawn kill like it's nothing.
Am I the only one seing something wrong here or am I just naive to expact fair play?
As everyone who ever played me knows, I don't mind loosing. But in a fight! Someone wacking me with skill! Not because I just spawned in front of him.
If you watch my demos, you'll see that I never shoot at a freshly spawned player, unless it's a twitch...then I apologize. I don't care if I have one or two less ELO points at the end of the match...it's just wrong.
Especially with the ladder, it's a game of skill and practice. Not dumb luck and shitty behaviour. There is simply no skill in shooting someone that dosn't even know you're shooting.
The reason I'm pissed with this is that many of you are bragging about this, and how it made you win...blah, blah

Same goes for camping and blind RL'ing although I'll refrain from getting into that right now.

A simple sollution would be to make a freshly spawned player invurable for a few seconds. To prevent idiotic players from abusing this, make the players weapons useless during this period of time.

Does anyone else see a point in doing this??? anyone.....

I never played any other fps than Nexuiz, so i dunno about "Standard Gaming Practices"... But I think there is a difference between respawn frag while running, and respawn frag while camping. When you are running through a map, especially with the nex gun, sometimes you can't stop your finger... and the oppenent is vaporized

Why is blind rocket launching a bad practice for you ? Rockets are not unlimited, and for example i often shoot in 2 or 3 places with the RL because I know that the other player should walk through one of them... but my shots are totally blind. It's the game.

obi_wan wrote:...When you are running through a map, especially with the nex gun, sometimes you can't stop your finger... and the oppenent is vaporized .....

I have nothing against the reflex shots as they are bound to happen. What I'm talking about are intentional spawn killings just to up your score.

I agree with you in thise.. with some exeptions.

Overall I think it would be good sportmanship to at least let your oponent start moving. However, when running I might fire on reflex if I round a corner and there the player is.

Also if An opponen spawns facing you and you have 2 hp left, you have no choice or you'd be dead yourself

It is kinf od annoying to be killed before you even get the chance to strt moving, but I can see why many players would want to get as high a frag count as possible in the ladder matches.

Personally I've come to disregard this kind of sportsmanship in a ladder game, especially if my opponent does too, however, I would respect it if we could agree that the sportsmanlike thing is the way to do it.

That of cource means that a freshly spawned played doesnt shoot me in the back if i turn around and go the other way to lef him get started

I'm not a big fan of spawn fragging but most of the time its either you or the other guy. If i do not frag him but turn away to leave him alone i more often then not get his shotgun in the back. It does not have to be unsportsman just a reflex and the secondary shotgun can be quite bad
It also depends on the opponent. Some are just hard to frag so you deserve that extra frag
Then again its just part of the game. It can be pretty frustating to get spawn killed again and again but if you frag the other one you can do the same thing

Hmm there are a few interesting reads:
http://www.sk-gaming.com/feature/670/1/
http://www.ggl.com/news.php?NewsId=2436
http://www.ggl.com/news.php?NewsId=2431

Spawnkilling is general in ladder matches, and it's part of the game. It takes skill to know where the nmy will spawn or to escape from a spawning situation, so I don't mind spawnfragging in "official" tournament matches. Spawnfragging is not only bad luck.

I have never been a good dueller, but if we take "seriously" a ladder match, then spawnfragging is tolerable.

But on fun play dm I never spawnfrag, it ruins the fun.

I'm surely no fan and dislike spawnkilling and camping, this is one side. On the other side, especially in 1on1 matches, It's just me or the other one. War is war.

I've been fragged about 80 (or was it 100?) times by a well known player in a 15mins 1on1 on nexdm04 and he succeeded that by camping and spawn killing only.

Really unfair and quite frustrating, but still he showed great skills and he deserved that victory somehow. That are my feelings. And I think the better You and Your enemy plays, the more skills like this are just necessary to use. The game itsself allows this. War is war.

It's also no problem for me to lose, I rather have a bad conscience when fraggin' n00bies like rabbits. But some players just hate losing, that's their own think and I can't change, neither I want to condemn that. After all those ones work hard on their game skills and I learned very much of em. That's why I respect them doing this to me

I'm always shooting enemies out of reflex (when using the nexgun). This means that I'll also do spawnkills.

However I gonna say "sry" directly after that in most of the times

in Quakeworld, you're going to see a lot of spawn fragging going on. It's not uncommon to see a good player tossing nades and rockets randomly @ spawns right after a kill. A great player will do this, and even on a map like ztndm3 can completely control a map, in match or duel just by adapting spawn fragging to their map knowledge.

i've always believed it was rather weak in FFA / DM, myself. it's frowned upon but you'll still catch a lot of the greater players doing it. it's become part of the game, so sometimes you can adapt to the method in this case. wait a few seconds before respawn to throw off the offenders timing.

og_carbon wrote:wait a few seconds before respawn to throw off the offenders timing.

Try this in a ladder match and if You managed, just tell me hosw

You can't wait with the spawning in Nexuiz

Replying to Urmel's first post:

If your nmy could spawnfrag with you with camping all the time, it means that the map is fucked up, and every spawn point on the map is shootable from one point of the map. And this is not good.

I wanna throw out a sollution that might direct the 1v1 towards fragskill rather then timing and map knowledge.

-2 seconds immunity for respawned players (they can't shoot either)

-Set a maximum value for health and armor...let's say 250 or 300 or whatever.

Let me know what you guys think about this.

Immunity good idea, no shoot good idea, max health bad idea (kills nexuiz's healh system's uniqueness)

[LDB]C.Brutail wrote:max health bad idea (kills nexuiz's healh system's uniqueness)

I can't believe there's no possibility to set that on a ladder server by default

Yes, in the next patch servers can set max health and max armour. Its not tested yet, but it should work

PHREAK wrote:-2 seconds immunity for respawned players (they can't shoot either)
-Set a maximum value for health and armor...let's say 250 or 300 or whatever.

I think both will be possible in Nexuiz 1.5.1.. except that 'can't shoot either' part but to be honest i think its a bad idea to stop them from being killed or from shooting. Its just a game, if you get killed get over it

I don't really notice spawn camping that much. Maybe I'm just bad at distinguishing between a quick death by chance, a quick death because of a bad spawn, and a quick death because of a camper, but it's not something that I'm too concerned about. The only time it really bugs me is when 90% of the spawns occur in one spot for some reason and a nex camper is staring you in the eye each time you click the mouse, but that can be solved by fixing the spawning algorithm.

If a player is a sitting duck in front of me, either because they have just spawned, or because they are typing or afk, sometimes I will let them live, and other times I will show no mercy. I think more often than not I'll just tap them around with a weak weapon and then wander off.

This would not be nearly as much of a problem if:
the nex damage was lowered to 145, or
the charging nexgun becomes a standard

esteel wrote:I think both will be possible in Nexuiz 1.5.1.. except that 'can't shoot either' part but to be honest i think its a bad idea to stop them from being killed or from shooting. Its just a game, if you get killed get over it

i agree w/ that... you should be able to shoot on spawn...
in DMQ (a recode of deathmatch classic) we have 2 cvars:

//spawn_protection 1 will give players invincibility for protection_time seconds after they spawn
//protection_time If spawn_protection==1, how long will the protection last for.

respawns are all glowy like they have the pent, it wears off and protection is over. a lot of servers that used it had it set at 3 seconds (like the old dmm4), imo anything over 1 second spawn protection is overkill, for no other reason than trying to take down a pented up respawning bot for 3 seconds while it pecks away at you is like trying to take down a coked up whore with a celery stalk.

Uh.. Sometimes it´s really hard when you are Spawnkilled again and again...
But who cares ? Next time it happend to my challenger

Wasn´t it so esteel ? Nice game.. thx

See ya on Minstagib !

SirRadyx [GER] wrote:Uh.. Sometimes it´s really hard when you are Spawnkilled again and again...
But who cares ? Next time it happend to my challenger

Wasn´t it so esteel ? Nice game.. thx

See ya on Minstagib !

Hey Sir Minstagib, time 4u to get yer DM skilz together and join teh ladder man

I thought about it...
But my favorite playing Nexuiz is Minstagib...

So, if there is a ladder for Minstagib I will be there.

Sorry.

See ya on Minstagib

SirRadyx [GER] wrote:
Sorry.

Yes, You really ought to be

Hey Sir Radyx,

until I began playing 1on1, Minstagib was my favourite Nexuiz style, I did not play standard mode at all.

But 1on1 is really fun, just try it.

Backside is: if you like it, Minstagib won't be as much fun as it was anymore.

Minstagib 1on1 would be pretty boring i think.

Could it be the lack of player skill reflects these 1vs1 games and few humans vs loads of bots

I havent seen an 8 human vs 8 human tdm game yet or 16 human dm frag fest

I hate 1 vs 1 , seems to boring . I like at least 7 other ppl in the game to challage me

http://img204.imageshack.us/my.php?imag ... 0060io.jpg
http://img234.imageshack.us/my.php?imag ... c20059.jpg
http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/9828 ... n20061.jpg

Charliebrownau wrote:I hate 1 vs 1 , seems to boring . I like at least 7 other ppl in the game to challage me

It personal taste but i think 1on1 is far from boring.. Just watch a few demos from the ladder, or see the hype that the game kojn vs m0rfar starts..

Those FFA games are much less strategic. Yeah they might be fun but i'm more nervous in a 1on1 game.. and i have seen quite a few 8 player games.. so they happen but i guess they are harder to find where you are from.
But you are right when it comes to TDM.. i can think of only one TDM server. Thats bad.