[EDIT] This post originally contained ideas about a "Tournament mode" with fancy stuff. It was over complicated so I edited the post to make it easier to understand, with the bare minimum of what I was suggesting. This feature would be a good start and could eventually be used for a full tournament mode. [/EDIT]

Suggestion:
Have a server setting unrelated to "maxplayers" that sets a maximum number of "active players", that is, a maximum number of players that can join a team. Once the maximum number of "active players" is filled, remaining spectators cannot join a team and have to remain in "observer mode".

This feature would make it possible, for example, to connect to a duel server even if there are already 2 players connected. If both "active players" spots are taken, someone connecting to the server would not be able to enter the game and ruin an on-going match, but would be able observe the match.

Problems:
The biggest problem with this is of course "cheating", which would make this feature unavailable for ladder servers, with good reason, unless the feature can be voted on or off ("maxplayers 2" when set to "off"? If there are more than 2 players at that time on the server, what would happen?).

Still using duel servers as example, another problem would be that when the 2 active players are ready to play the match, there is no way to prevent an observer to steal a spot once the map restarts, because when a map starts, by default everyone is an observer and have to pick a team to enter the game. To resolve this problem, server would need to remember who were the active players after map restart, some kind of "lockteams" command.

That's about it.

BTW, would be nice of some of you replied with a simple "I approve" even if you cannot help or have nothing to add. Or even "I disapprove" if don't. Everyone I talked to about it seemed to agree this would be a great feature, but none of them actually replied to give their opinion in the old thread. I'm starting to think I only imagined those people.

i approve, i asked for this a long time ago.

nice idea - approving that also !

approving.

maybe authentication of some sort?

Yeah, I'd love that, too.

I'd also love to get 100 Million USD from Bill Gates.

Actually, I want to add some secure authentication, I just do not know how to do it without violating software patents. Embedding OpenSSL (and letting them take the risk) is out of question, OpenSSL is simply too big and adding yet another DLL makes maintaining the Windows and OS X builds even harder. It is hard enough as is because the vorbis DLL is so hard to compile (We still need someone to compile a new version of them for our next release).

The idea would be an optional registration with email address. Each address can only be used once to register a nick in one month. Each nick can only get registered once at all. If you register, you get a file mailed that is a "key pair" for your nickname. If you have such a key file and your nickname matches, the client sends the public key to the server - which is digitally signed by Alientrap, so the server can find out if the key file is genuine. Once a client has sent a key to the server, all communication is encrypted by it - that way, it is ensured, that the client actually has the matching private key. In the end, we have here a protocol that authenticates a nickname without requiring a separate authentication server - so the game still works well without that server. If a player then plays with an unregistered nick, an "UNREGISTERED" sign gets prepended to his nickname. Only way to get rid of that sign would be registering the nickname.

That way, nobody would be forced to enter his email address anyway, but we'd have a good way to secure your nickname against imposters. Ladders and other serious competitions however could require a registered nickname, to ensure that the right one plays in a duel.

What nifrek said about nexuiz could be a great TDM game, but not enough maps suitable for tdm at all, is very, very true.

Hopefully with some time this can be changed.

Since Darkplaces is based on QW engine I was wondering, isn't there a way to use the code of it's spectator mode? In QW you type "spectator 1" in console and reconnect and you are then using a maxspectators spot instead of a maxplayers spot. I don't think it's a different port or anything, I'm not sure tho. I downloaded qw source but I can't find anything about it yet. There's a spectator.c file in the qc files but I think it's mostly related to what happens when a spectator connects (where he spawns, messages like "spectator someplayer connected", stuff like that). I don't know programming but that's what I can make out of it, and the code seems well commented.

nifrek wrote:Since Darkplaces is based on QW engine I was wondering, isn't there a way to use the code of it's spectator mode?

dp is based on GLQuake (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Quake_-_family_tree.svg), QW support was added about a year ago but afaik only the client side, so dp can't be used as QW server.

Ah, that explains a lot. A lot of people have told me it was based on QW. So if maxspectators and spectator mode was added directly to DP, all the games based on it would benificiate from it? I would feel ridiculous contacting Lordhavoc about it tho.

And to add some things about why I think this feature is important, some things I've said before, but not sure if I did on the forums...

Because no spectators are allowed to watch "serious" games, this makes the small amount of good players into a "closed/elite" group since they do not play on public servers. I don't see how the community could "grow" much more than it is right now and I'm convinced this is one of the reasons. It's hard to get players to stick to a game if they cannot see what kind play is possible other than playing on public servers with other new players who just installed the game. If I didn't make the effort to do some research and join the forums and finally find some demos deeply hidden in the depths of the internet, find out about #nexuiz on irc, then I wouldn't be here anymore. Doesn't that bother anybody else? Search "nexuiz" on google and the first 2 pages is mostly reviews and places to download the game. So you read a nice review and download the game, connect on a server and then end up finishing first every time you play after a couple games.

QW is I don't know how many years old and even tho it died for a while, the community worked very hard and it's coming back with tournaments with money prizes at big lan party's and a league for newbies (and there's quite a few for them too). Even tho the learning curve for that game is INSANE, newbies actually stay because they've seen good players play and were impressed, and they unconsciously set a goal for themselves to keep playing and become as good as those guys. And the old players actually are happy to help newbies, last time I went to a server there was 1 player and 5 spectators, and the player spent 2 hours teaching the spectators various strategies for 2on2, ways to react to all kind of attack, how to communicate easily with your teammate, etc.

It just seems weird to me that a game like Nexuiz, with great visuals and a gameplay that gets better with every release, that the player base doesn't seem to change much. When I installed the game last year, I played for about 2 weeks and read the forums a bit, I had the same feeling. That's why I didn't stick to it, don't get me wrong I believe Nexuiz as enormous potential. I've now been back since a bit more than a month and it's almost exactly the same 20 people hiding on the forums and irc but new newbies on the public servers. All the newbies I played with last year have disappeared, probably went back to other games.

The player base is definitely growing. A year ago I would have to play on a European server with a high ping because the US servers were never consistently full, and now there are many active US servers.

The reason the popularity of the game isn't increasing as the quality of the game does, is marketing. A non-sponsored Free Software project will inherently have this problem. The best we can do is submit the game to download sites, social news sites, and sites focusing on free software.

Also, a lot of skilled players regularly play on public servers, and anyone can watch serious games if they watch the demos. A demo repository or listing would help a lot if that's really what you feel would be a catalyst.

Finally, kojn's movie should be a big help too.

I love you Dave.

Hehe, yeah sorry for sounding a "tad" dramatic. As for a demo repository, I already offered kojn for his demos, I can help with web design and such but I can't code something that would update itself, where people can comment and stuff, I would have to update manually the html everytime someone wants to add a demo, send me the file and description, etc. So I'd be happy to do it but if it gets too big it won't be practical, if someone wants to eventually help it would be nice. We can start with kojn's demos and see how it goes. I could buy a domain name, I have a server with plenty of space. I don't know about bandwidth tho.

So I actually e-mailed Lordhavoc and he said he agreed it would be a nice feature to add and would take a look at the qw server code to eventually add it to DP (maybe he was just being polite, but he was nice nonetheless), when time permits.

He made a suggestion which is probably simpler in quakec than what I was [EDIT]originally[/EDIT] suggesting:

"it would be fairly easy to make a max active players cvar, so that duel servers would only let two people be playing at once, all others having to stay in spectator mode."

@nifrek: the post before your last one definetely expressed a lot of the feelings I also had about all this. Actually, my ultimate goal was to get this pn.com page project in order to do some kind of "marketing" after that (as much as I could do it without money). But marketing a game properly, besides the fact that it can cost money, also requires a working base that allows new players to get information about Nexuiz, for which pn.com was supposed to be created. Anyhow, even if I still wanted to help, I am not able due to lack of time the next three months.

@dave: such a repository would indeed be a good thing.

To Nifrek, i read your post before, but i was in a rush so had no time to reply.

Sure, i can send you demo's + descriptions if you would like to do that demo repository, the next time im on IRC we can discuss it?

[EDIT] I edited my first post because it was over complicated and probably made no sense for most people. Please have a look at it again.

Okay, I'm done bothering people about this. I made my suggestion known to a point that I must be annoying.

Just know that even tho various coders did actually discuss this feature with me, officially there's nobody working on it from lack of interest or time. I removed original content of my first post and put ideas that came up during discussions with coders, ideas that are probably easier to implement and more logical.

I think I'm just starting to take this game way to seriously and it's wrong of me the bother people everytime I see someone mention they can code in quakec, no matter how much I think it would "help the game" or whatever, they're doing it as a hobby and of course they should code things that they find interesting. So I give up, I'll leave it at that. If eventually anyone is interested in coding this feature, then please feel free to bump this thread or come to irc and let's discuss.

cya in Nexuiz.

Your suggested lockteam alone can, in theory, already do what you need... if someone explains me how this weird Quake parm system works, I can try doing it. It somehow allows transferring data between a game restart or map change, but it looks absolutely confusing. Which function is called when the game is unloaded, which when a level is loaded?

Okay I lied about not bothering people about it anymore. I guess I just can't stop myself.

divVerent, any luck with the weird Quake parm system?

(not immediately related to this, but related to a discussion I had with divVerent some time ago) I have played a few 2vs2 tdm in the last few days. Even with random players that I picked up on public servers who never played duels or know anything about the "ready" command, we never had any trouble getting a game started. One time I just joined a CTF server and spotted the player with the most points and asked/convinced him to try a 2vs2 then gave him an ip to join. It took a minute and 2 other players from that server also joined because they were curious. It only takes a few seconds to explain someone to press F4 or type "ready" in console to restart map and start match from scratch once teams/map are decided. People are not stupid (not all of them anyway), once they get interested in something they listen and understand when you explain stuff. If they don't, they'll just leave because there's no game going and that's boring. Out of 5 games, only once did a player leave mid-game and he didn't disconnect without saying anything.

Now (here it is), if there were spectator spots/lockteams, maybe more players would've connected and maybe stick around to take a spot for next game. Instead, what usually happens is that 1 or 2 players leave or want to take a break after a game of two. So the 2 remaining players cant play anymore, unless they leave server and go on another one and advertise again that they need players to play. Or scream on irc in the hope that someone will be reading in channel in the next 5 minutes and be interested (I have not been very lucky with that method yet). I think I've spent x4 the time advertising wanting to play 2vs2 than actually playing it.

On another note (and soon another thread), I'm working to get a 2vs2 league going. It is weeks away, but I think it's a good idea. The problem with the Ladder is that clans aren't forced to play unless they're challenged. With a league, matches will be scheduled in advance like in most sports with seasons and all (clans will have one week to arrange a date/time and play the match) so clans will be forced to play. With the ridiculous amount of new clans getting formed these days even if nobody is actually playing clan matches, I think it's the right time for this. It doesnt even have to be clans, so even if 4 people in clan want to participate they can simply form 2 teams. If there are enough clans/teams, maybe an elimination series/tournament at the end of the season would be fun.

-z- is/will be coding features on www.nexuizninjaz.com to manage the league (there's a forum for now about the league, I'll post more info/plans there soon). So now I'm trying to get people interested in 2vs2, the strategies involved in it and blah blah blah. Having spectator slots/lockteam would already be a huge help.

I like tourneys more than ladders just because players are scheduled to play and not waiting for someone to challenge you

Ready:
I always wanted a better "ready" command. My wish: All ready players are indicated "ready" in scoreboard (and/or a sprite over the head ). And if all players are ready; time, items, spawns and score (not teams, teams should be as they are) are cleared and a countdown begins ... and play!
That is more fair than a server restart - not all players are joining at the same time or choose the correct team as fast as the others.

Tournament mode:
That mode exists in Q4. I haven't played it in months(or years) - but still looks cool.


Dual mode:
Most of #1 post sounds like Warsow's dual mode.

Hm that Unstable dude is a mightyfine Freeze player I believe.

This is what I Suggest, nothing in terms of minsta is being done really, so a 2 v 2 tournament consisting of approximately 12 teams could enter so you'd have primary rounds, quarter finals, semi, final etc. If there are more than 12 or less, making sure it's an even number so the competition is run fairly and no one gets a bypass.

Well hey, I played with the source and somehow managed to make a lockteam cvar and it works.

Basically, I think what I did is bypass the PutClientInServer when the cvar is enabled when client tries to pick a team. It's pretty messy right now cos I don't exactly know what the code means, I just copied/modified a line or 2. I don't know how to put a default value in it and there's no messages at all when it gets enabled or disabled.

It only works when there are teams (that's perfect but purely accidental), has to be tdm or ctf and server must disable auto-join when players press "jump", and instead use the selecteam menu. Teamlock disables itself when a map starts, which is great, I think it's because I added cvar_set("teamlock", "0"); in ResetGameCvars but there's a message in server console that says "Cvar_Set: variable teamlock not found" everytime a map starts, so it might be an accidental bonus again at this point . So it's obviously not done right, but it's a start.

Thanks a lot to pavlvs for letting me test it on his server.

Is this useful?

OOooooh it works great now.

It prints a message "Cannot join, match is already started" when a player tries do join a team. So with the new map reset instead of restart, this will be a good start to eventually make an actual tournament mode. Right now it has to be enabled by vote, so it's not that that useful because it would slow down the start of a game. But once it can be enabled at the same time has every player is ready it's going to be perfect.