Also, like zombie, I'm also learning how to rocket fly to cap flags recently. Everyone else is doing it, so I thought I'd give it a go. The result is that I feel it makes capping way too easy on some open maps (facing, capture city, blasted lands, greatwall)

Maybe someone should make a mod called Rocket Fly CTF which would be setup with special rocket flying maps and adjust the other weapons to make it possible to stop someone rocketflying.

C.Brutail wrote:Imho the more skill needed to make a trickmove (RLBoost), the more you need to learn to PLAY. I've voted for reduce.

But that's the point. It doesn't take very much skill at all to do the rocket flying and it wields a lot of power. It throws off the game because everyone will eventually try to use rocket flying and use other techniques far less (like using teamplay to get the flag back to base).

Don't remove. This is a feature of Nexuiz. Since 1.0.

I didn't see it until kojn showed it in a flag capture demo sometime late last summer. Over the past few months, a lot of people have been starting to use it. That's why it's just now becoming a problem. It was an unknown feature (to most) for a long time.

Doku: maybe it's not impossible to cap on facing worlds without rocketboost, but it's going to be pretty hard. the difference between no rocketboost and rocketboost (in the hands of a moderately fast player, not talking RD here) is a flag carrier being accosted by one or two volleys of defenders as opposed to two or three to slow the player down. for instance, if i kill a defender in base, grab flag, he has a chance to respawn in base to attack me again. if he dies again he has a chance to spawn outside base to attack me yet again (if i immediately flee out the front.) if he dies again and if he spawns at the front or back side & is good enough with laser he can actually attempt to intercept me yet again.

also doku, remember that one practice match we had where you had dave and we like capped once just cause turner and i hauled ass at the beginning? and no other captures between the two teams in 20 min? that was *with* rocketboost. w/out what chance is there to capture, everyone will turtle and get 5'ers on flag returns. "teamwork" isn't the answer, not when defenders have the advantage due to instant respawn, close respawn proximity, and a pretty nice starting weapon. any attempt to completely route the enemy base, escape with flag, intercept all the interceptors, and still keep your flag tidy in base is pretty much luck as it is, rocketboosting just makes it a lil more likely.

(i understand the consensus is to reduce rocketboost as of now, but i'm just arguing as if you guys were still going to kill it

Mr. Bougo wrote:
Still, I don't think we want an elitist game...

Also, about handicap, how would you vote that? How do beginners vote? Most of the time, they are the non-voters (hence the new 2.4 voting system to make voting more possible)

Certainly I don't either, but there will ALWAYS be "elite" players owning noobs, whether or not they can rocket boost (perhaps the humiliation stings a bit less tho!). Perhaps if it is off/reduced by default, then matches comprised of mostly (evenly) skilled players can vote to turn it on..? I don't know how the new voting system works, but if it is improved--then all the better.

Red Dragon wrote:I voted keep.

Fast paced?
Is Nexuiz a fast paced fps or not? Removing RL-boosting will slow down ctf-gameplay, which means caps on open maps like greatwall will become impossible. And there is one simple way to stop a RLbooster especially on open those maps. That is a good sniper. I've always feared Inficios aim and even pray after a boost that he doesnt hit me.

My expirience
A few day ago i played a public ctf match vs some newbies. All of them (about 4) had MG and were camping in the base. Map was greatwall. Those who have seen me playing know how i attack there. So I attacked with 200/200 and rl. Do you really think i could escape that? No, I didnt. More than 10 times i ran into their MGs and was slaugthered. I was helpless with all my laserjumpskill and RL-BOOSTING. No single cap for me the whole match.

Without RL-boosting
On open maps there are only two weapons used: RL vs nex (or MG in 2.3)
Without RLboosting only nex. That means "greatwall == tdm minsta"
If no RL-boost, then no nex please (and MG 2.3)

You complain about the maps, remove the map from the server if it's too easy to camp there, but this isn't a argument for keeping rocketboost.
Good maps are too small for rocketboosting, a rocket- or laserjump should be enough to cross one room, so removing doesn't slow down the gameplay.

Teamplay
People say it will improve teamplay. I think ctf-gameplay will be similar to desertcastle, where 5 players are attacking as a group and hardly anyone will reach the flag. Not to mention returning to base.

If they use teamplay, they will reach and capture the flag.

Maps
Bundy also told me weapons are ok, maps are not. Imho he's absolutly right. Look at capturecity. Best maps are those which are partitially indoor and outdoor (facingworlds), where EVERY weapon can be used. (Facing has still not enough indoor parts imho, but maps are another topic)

I do agree, but why do you post this in a thread about rocketboosting?

Less option in a game will make it uninteressting. So please keep RL-boosting.

It will make it more interesting for me, perhaps i even start playing on public servers again.

I hope my english isnt too bad and you dont get tired reading my long post.

No, i actually didn't understand anything.

Just set the delay to 0.1.

inficio wrote:everyone will turtle and get 5'ers on flag returns. "teamwork" isn't the answer, not when defenders have the advantage due to instant respawn, close respawn proximity, and a pretty nice starting weapon. any attempt to completely route the enemy base, escape with flag, intercept all the interceptors, and still keep your flag tidy in base is pretty much luck as it is, rocketboosting just makes it a lil more likely.

I understand you're saying that rocketboosting helps against stalemates, but keep in mind that the match you mentioned had both rocketboosting and the nex-switch-refire bug enabled. I believe the weapon-switching refire bug with the nex caused that game to become so defensive.

Dave: that's very true. i can't tell how it would've been without the nex glitch, but i expect it would've been pretty defensive. it seems the more practice Doku's clan and mine are having, the more and more defensive we get.

i might be for reduction/removal of boost if flag cap values were higher, so teamwork would have to compensate. for 20 frags atm, it's just not really worth it when you can just defend. i hope that's not what anyone wants from ctf.

I'm for reducing.
When you make a map there are parameters to consider. If you change these parameters then the maps need to change too. By making this an incremental change you make possible adjustment to the new distances and possibilities by map makers, I can't understand why players of Nexuiz don't spend more time making maps instead of playing , including me.
Somehow it seems that part of the creative process is actually working out how to use the maps, for example the hills in Greatwall were they always intended as velocity/direction/altitude adjusters?
Making maps is so rewarding but it takes so long, i would like to be able to create maps in a less solipsist manner, but I'm not so sure this is possible (not if mikee is any callibration object).
...
So I think reducing is a better option because we can see what happens in a more incremental manner, 2.4 is looking great so far, and this thread is an hotbed.
...
As an afterthought, i think that the subject of mapper choices vs weapon callibration is a bit chicken and egg, which came first? which should come first? was there a weapon and no map or a map and no weapon?
Okay that makes no sense but i did well till now, Nexuiz love it HOOOOOOoooooooo

Serious Concern Expressed In This Post Shortly:

Will this change affect Regular DM play in ANY way ? I would not want a gameplay change designed specifically for CTF mess with my favorite game mode.

Well you all know my opinion:
Keep the rocket jump as it was in 2.3

If you liked things the way they were, why change?

"If you liked things the way they were, why change?"

That was said before. When 2.3 came out, people simply didn't DO that. Mappers therefore didn't THINK of it. Rocket boosting in that extreme manner became popular long AFTER 2.3 release.

So basically, be reducing the rocketboost power, or even removing them... we go BACK to how it was in 2.3 times.

I voted to reduce it.

Mostly because I feel that some people are proud of their skills and I don't want to rob them of their opportunities to show this.

BUT I also think that with bunnyhopping and laserjumping (which are in by design) there are plenty of ways to gain inhuman speed. That should be enough.

We cannot blame people for not being interested in doing CTF defense if balance is skewed beyond description towards those which come in at warpspeed.

shaggy wrote:Well you all know my opinion:
Keep the rocket jump as it was in 2.3

If you liked things the way they were, why change?

Don't worry, DM servers will probably have rocketjumps on, since that doesn't ruin gameplay at all... In DM, rocketjump is about one frag, not 20 like in CTF.

I voted for keep it. It's good target practice when people are flying through the air.

Dokujisan wrote:

Mr. Bougo wrote:In early 2.3 times, when I joined the game, I saw like noone rocketjumping... Was the game SLOW? No.

Agree, many people did not start to use the feature until a months back properly, i hardly ever saw it being used until capturecity. People forget you can still rocket jump or mortar jump without using the secondary of the RL.

and the 'no one will be able to capture on facingworlds' argument is indeed ridiculous.

I have to be honest and say that i would prefer it be removed, and so i will vote for it.

and the greatwall reloaded argument....that depends on the number of players and who is playing, its like bundy said it's not really the weapons fault, its the fact of the weapons ON a map that is the problem, when these kind of maps were first made, it seemed to be the thing to do was to put every weapon possible within a map for some reason.

k0jak wrote:and the greatwall reloaded argument....that depends on the number of players and who is playing, its like bundy said it's not really the weapons fault, its the fact of the weapons ON a map that is the problem, when these kind of maps were first made, it seemed to be the thing to do was to put every weapon possible within a map for some reason.

Slightly OT,but I agree with this last part. I would love to have a break from the nex on certain maps! Talk about a weapon that people can overuse/be "overskilled" with...

agree

Mirio wrote:

RoKenn wrote:Funny enough I also have said before that facing worlds would be nicer without a nex. It's a great map but the nex makes it "facing campers".

(The same problem applies to all maps with large open areas.)

the should be a no-nex-mode!
plz plz plz lol

IMO the certain problem is the nex..

SavageX wrote:I voted to reduce it.

Mostly because I feel that some people are proud of their skills and I don't want to rob them of their opportunities to show this.

BUT I also think that with bunnyhopping and laserjumping (which are in by design) there are plenty of ways to gain inhuman speed. That should be enough.

We cannot blame people for not being interested in doing CTF defense if balance is skewed beyond description towards those which come in at warpspeed.

we still need straight-hopping ^^

This is probably to hard to inplent, but what if you can increase the detonate delay if it is reused within a spesific timeframe. That would enable you to jump from one rocket, but not from a second one.
It would still be usable for escaping save yourself from a botemless pit, but not to the extend it can be now.

i think a default of -1 would be nice for regular CTF, there will be custom CTF servers anyway. but i also think the whole weapon configuration for CTF should be redesigned.

some would argue that the configurations shouldn't vary too much or it will confuse players, but maybe the modified weapons could have custom models (or model skins).

inficio wrote:
also doku, remember that one practice match we had where you had dave and we like capped once just cause turner and i hauled ass at the beginning? and no other captures between the two teams in 20 min? that was *with* rocketboost.

We're still relatively new to team play. All of us are used to playing on public servers where people are all rambo about grabbing the flag without the help of teammates. It's kinda burned into our brains at this point and it takes some conditioning to undo that. The reason none of us capped is because we failed at strategy. We shouldn't "fix" the problem by unbalancing the techniques just to make it easier for an individual to cap.

IMO, the way it was in that match is the way CTF should be. It SHOULD be difficult to cap the flag. It SHOULD require good strategy and teamwork.

As an example, I did successfully grab your flag at one point during that match, but I didn't have binds set to ask my team for assistance and set a waypoint, and my team wasn't in position to assist me. We didn't have much team awareness. If we had that, I might have been able to cap the flag. But we as a team still have some work to do.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it

it seems the more practice Doku's clan and mine are having, the more and more defensive we get.

heh. Interesting. That's probably true. I think I noticed that on like the third runningman match we had, that your team was doing a lot less attacking. I think it's good to start with a solid defense and work your way out from there. It's very different from public play where you often don't have solid defense and so people are playing aggressively to compensate.

Most of you won't know me as I'm not really active in the community, as you can say by the number of my posts in the forum. But anyway, I started playing this game like 2 years ago - iirc it was v2.0 or 2.1. I don't know anything about DM but Nexuiz CTF has been a lot of fun for me. At that time you didn't see any rocket jumping in CTF.

I don't know when all the rocket jumping in CTF started... But - speaking for myself - Nexuiz CTF is no fun for me at all anymore. Have you ever tried to defend in a public CTF game today, with all those rocket jumpers?! It's close to impossible. Even worse, it's frustrating to the highest degree. When one of the typical speed-cappers joins, I'm leaving. Not because of the score. I'm playing defense, by definition that means I don't care about the score. It's just because it's frustrating. You see one guy out-jump four players on (e.g.) greatwall. That's not teamplay. I call it a one-man-show. It's like this: rocket-jump into the base right to the spot where the flag is, laser-jump, rocket-jump out. Come one. Sure it might not have been the best players here, but even against total noobs this should be impossible. Have you ever tried to hit a rocket jumper on greatwall with a latency of 100ms (or worse)? Try it! The nex is completely useless with this latency.

Actually I think it should be like this: One attacker against one defender of equal skill -> attacker loses with close to 90% probability. He should lose because of the defender's proximity to armor and health. I mean, there's got to be some team effort if you call it a team game.

For me CTF has turned from playing it a couple of hours every day to playing it once every 2 weeks and leaving completely frustrated after one hour of playing. It's not the game I started playing 2 years ago. To sum it up, it's like this: the players' skills have changed dramatically, while the game hasn't. Something needs to be done or CTF turns into a game where the only fun lies in "How fast can I cap a flag compared to the others?".
How often have I heard "good game" when it's just a 2 minutes round with no defense or offense and "bad game, bad game" if it ends 0:0. It seems players on public servers just want to speed-cap without being disturbed. I hear the rocket jumpers saying "camper", "sniper" and "nex whore" but no one cares about how boring the game can be for a defender. And if defending becomes boring, I'm sniping and I'm not completely skill-less as a sniper. I'm usually called one of the above names. But what am I supposed to do if it's boring?! Sniping is at least some fun for me that's left in the game.
I could go to an empty server and practise speed-jumping and rocket-jumping and all the tricks but that's not what I want to. I want a team game. With a defense team and an offense team and if the offense is not team at all then a team game has to end 0:0 caps always.

All of this is - of course - a personal opinion. I'm sure the game developers will follow the wishes of the majority.

A last comment about maps. There is a map called "subseatrack". It's the only map where you can actually see team play on a public server. Rocket jumpers won't like it. Other notable exceptions are dusty and mikectf where there is actually defensive team play. The maps that are guaranteed to be a 0:0 in clan matches might be the best for public games.

Almost completely agree with the above statement.

I've played nexuiz for quite some time, and I can perform all the little tricks like hopping and various forms of laser jumping and rocket jumping.

I would personally know how cheap rocket jumping is. The answer is, it's very cheap.

For instance, on the map battlevalentine, one person comes to the flag, rocket jumps, and almost instantly returns to their own base. The only way to stop something like that is to be a crackshot with the nex, which I'm quite certain most people aren't.

Also, it is very possible to cap the flag without rocket boosting on facing. However, it is still pretty difficult with all the nex campers sometimes on the roof.

Well, it looks like we'll go with the timer solution ("reduce") for now... and possibly turn them off completely later. The trend in this discussion is obvious - the majority wants to get rid of the cheap RBs. That variant will get tested in 2.4, and we'll see what will be decided afterwards.

Any server up and running for this to be tested out? Or does it not need to be as the release is close by?

Mine, {}

Awesome, now I just have to surf in to the svn and grab some stuff.

I've been away from the boards for a while, but it was great to return and see this important thread! I'm happy to hear that the RL boost will be reduced. I voted for removing, but reducing is good too. As many have already said above, CTF was getting ruined by the overuse of this technique.

I want to thank the developers for their ongoing efforts to maintain excellent gameplay in Nexuiz. When I first started browsing the forums last year, I saw many mentions of balancing, but I didn't understand why it's importance. After playing for a while, though, I came to realize that balancing is what makes it fun. If there were easy and obvious choices of best weapon, technique and strategy, the game would have a limited appeal. Within a short time we'd all be doing the same thing.