Shaggy recently made a thread about rocket boosting.

Now the actual plan was to first make an option to toggle/change it... and doing that change later.

But now that there is a thread for this already, why not do that change in 2.4 already?

Basically, we have three choices what to do:

"keep": g_balance_rocketlauncher_detonatedelay 0 (same as 2.3)
* fast rocket boosting, no aiming required for it
* can jump over whole base in two rockets, usually
* hinders teamplay, favors lone runs in CTF (by first taking away all the health from your team mates, and then doing a lone capture run in record time)
* fastest game speed
* some consider it a feature, some consider it a bug (I myself don't know why it doesn't simply enforce the standard RL refire time)

"reduce": g_balance_rocketlauncher_detonatedelay 0.2
* rockets can go off only 0.2 seconds after they were fired
* mostly inhibits rocket boosts
* you still can SOMEWHAT get boosted, but to a lesser degree, and you need to aim down to do it
* it MAY still hinder teamplay

"remove": g_balance_rocketlauncher_detonatedelay -1
* rockets can NEVER go off by remote detonation unless you are out of their damage radius
* completely inhibits rocket boosts
* completely inhibits accidental self-rocket-remote-detonation (you can still suicide by hitting the floor with it)
* probably best for teamplay
* reduces game speed compared to 2.3 a bit

Now what do you opt for? Personally I opt for the latter solution, but let's see what the others think.

I'll later add more arguments you post in the thread to this list, so people can vote based on them.

For more opinions on this, see:
http://www.nexuizninjaz.com/forum/showt ... 959#pid959
http://www.forums.alientrap.local/viewtopic.php?t=2729

Isn't the pros/cons list a bit biased against rocketboosting? Rocketboosting doesn't HAVE to encourage lone flag runs, it depends on the players in the game at the time, as well as the situation of the match. I don't see any sense in removing a perfectly valid and unique feature of the game to cater to something that can change at any second.

Maybe the best thing to do would be to make g_balance_rocketlauncher_detonatedelay votable, 0 by default, and to increase the rocket launcher's self-inflicted damage. This would cater to both parties, without pissing a whole bunch of people off.

Just out of curiosity, what's the huge gripe with rocketboosting? How is it like cheating? The health/speed compromise seems fair to me, as opposed to the grappling hook.

I want both options.

I want to be able to fly from base to base in a few seconds with significant health damage.

Also I want a short delay on the alternative rocket fire, so that I can't kill myself. I don't object to a small amount of splash damage and a being moved a little way.

Allow an alternative fire before 0.1 seconds and after 0.5 seconds (no alternative fire between 0.1 and 0.5 seconds) approximately. The exact times willneed some adjustment.

The health and shields will still be taken by your team mates, I think yhe only way to stop the unnecessary health/shield pick ups is to limit the upper value. Set it to 200 (currently 999), but that is another poll

The problem is that rocket boost also ruin teamplay a bit.

Up to now rocketboosting and rocketWHORING (which means, nub takes RL, runs to the carrier, uses it as a close combat weapon, which sucks, and both die, flag lies around with noone to retrieve it, nub is unable to use waypoint sprites)
was idiot-proof

I, and many others I'm sure, want it to be more challenging
REDUCING:
This simply makes sure that you have to actually aim, get the right angle, think before using it.
It still works, and can be VERY VERY helpful.

REMOVING:
Totally encourages teamplay. Rocketwhoring the way I described it is not possible then, there will be no explosion/damage if you are in range of your own rocket.

In both of these cases, teamplay is encouraged

Since it's been reduced on {}, I've seen people using the nex to boost others.
I've used it, and even some newbies tried it, although they don't always get the angle quite right.
This is what is to be called teamplay, which was a myth up till now.



Btw.
if the sum of "reduce" and "remove" is > "leave it"
does that count as "reduce" then? ^^

victim wrote:The health and shields will still be taken by your team mates, I think yhe only way to stop the unnecessary health/shield pick ups is to limit the upper value.

This is off-topic, but removing rocketboosting won't do anything to prevent teammates from taking health pickups, and having played on public servers for 95% of my playing time, a lower health limit won't do much either.

Mute Print wrote:This is off-topic, but removing rocketboosting won't do anything to prevent teammates from taking health pickups, and having played on public servers for 95% of my playing time, a lower health limit won't do much either.

Stupid team mate behaviour can not be fixed in the game itself.
This issue is been addressed here: http://alientrap.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2722

I voted for reduce.

I really hope it wont be removed completely because it would ruin the RL. I am not talking about rocket boosts, it's fine that mid-air rocket boosts become impossible or harder. But I really feel it has to be possible to detonate close to you, it's a valid strategy in many situations, and yes even for teamplay. IE: If I'm in enemy base with a teammate and we're being attacked, I might blow myself up on purpose if I'm low on health to take an enemy with me (and no, aiming at ground doesn't do it, I aim at target and detonate when it's close enough to him) to help my teammate get away.

I see your argument, but you should actually try it before - but just try doing the same. When you now TRY to detonate it before you can, it remembers that you did it, and will detonate as soon as it is out of your range - even if you let go of the button.

So it would still hit the enemy easily... but to make it hit a bit earlier, you can walk backwards so the rocket leaves your range earlier.

Alternatives:

Reducing the force of a rocket
Inflicting less force on the firer for projectile weapons
Increasing health/armour rot rate
Health/armour maximum cap
Increasing self-damage, possibly only when in the air

Personally, I particularly favour the first alternative listed, but the list is only a sample set of ideas.

However, I'll agree that rocket-flying is essentially a free capture on open maps, notably Capture City, and Mental Space.

0.2 is perfect. It's a compromise between the boosters and the people against it. If you remove it, you might as well change the name of 'Nexuiz' to 'Halo'.

At first I was against reducing or removing rocketboosting, since I rarely use it and it's fun.

Then I played Red Dragon.

I favor either reducing or removing rocketboosting through this cvar. Might be nice to keep for DM though, for rocketboost-aided self-preservation on a space map.

Id like to try less force and 1 or 2 ms delay. the force from a single rj alone is ratehr over the top, and leaves little room for combos, like gl sec + rl.

well, RL has to be stronger than laser... or it would feel very odd in comparison.

i've really enjoyed the game with rocketboost as it was in 2.3. the idea of stacking health i think will stand anyway and letting one teammate be a juggernaut with 200health/200armor (or more) is valid whether they're flying away or lasering away. so removing it isn't going to let people share health/armor more (leaving things for teammates is a dangerous practice anyway, health and armor respawn quickly and anything you don't take the enemy *will* at the least convenient time for them to do so.)

i think the effects of rocketboost are most easily seen on capture city. sure, you can get a really fast cap, but if the enemy is skilled enough they can do the same. if your defense is adequate they're going to have a very difficult time getting to your flag & having enough health left to rocketboost away. most maps where rocketboosting is an issue usually boil down to two flag carriers fighting to survive until the other dies, so it's removal isn't going to radically change this. it'll just remove hope of a breakaway cap to punish overly defensive teams.

i've had some amazing chases in which rocketboosts became a factor between survival or death. if you're chasing a laser wielding opponent (suppose flag carrier) of equal skill, their head start means you have to wait for a mistake to catch up. the rocketboost gives you an option to close on them but you sacrifice health to do so, meaning they might just dispatch you with even more ease. it's just nice to have the option to do so.

hmm right, not mutch room force-wise between those. perhaps lowering both to say 300/500 for teambased modes could be good.

Hi guys, i just want to tell you my opinion after spending quite some time playing ctf in public servers: rocket boosting is not evil. mg abuse is much much more frustrating. After all, r boosting in facing worlds 4 example is a necessity. how on earth can you escape from 2-3 skilled nex bearers even if you have 2 people with you to accompany you. So it all boils down to the point, that it heavily depends on the map, and on the people actually defending. Many times you can rboost as a defender to catch the running flag carrier. Removing rboosting imo is not a valid option. Remaking certain maps (like removing the mh and 2 shields in capturecity or moving the rl somewhere else) could be better .
There are some options in the game which annoy some people and others not. mg whoring makes me want to eat my keyboard,but i know it is a respectfull weapon in open areas,and people that use it cleverly kill rls easily or even 50% nexers (chance to hit u per shot) in ctf. What should we do about it,prohibit the mg because it is easy/cheap to use? i feel the same with the rocket boosts. Try better defending (promoting teamwork in def).

Cheers from me and don Corleone guys, thank you for filing our endless uni lab time with something else to do than research.

I voted for removing it completely though i think that a delay of 0.2 seconds would be ok too.
The problem isn't the rocketboosting itselft imo, the maps are the real problem because most CTF maps are way too open and it's too easy to capture the flag there using it. However, i believe that we have to turn it off cause we won't remove 80% of the CTF maps.

Well, closed maps are fun TOO... but variety in map style is always a good thing. But yes, there are too many open CTF maps...

the thing is, rocketboosting basically forces mappers to make indoor maps, or not put a RL on their maps. But do we want to restrict the RL to indoor maps?

divVerent wrote:the thing is, rocketboosting basically forces mappers to make indoor maps, or not put a RL on their maps. But do we want to restrict the RL to indoor maps?

No, we want to make BIGGER outdoor maps \m/ (-.-) \m/

I would say remove it, but then I think of all the awesome things one can do with the RL on facing... it sucks without RL jumping.

I'd say like this: First let's try reducing it a bit and see how that plays out. How many people will complain and how many will like it. Then based on the result of that we could try removing it and see what kind of reactions are thrown at that.

I too opt for either reducing or removing. But before one options sticks I would like to try them both out and see how people adapt to the new settings

How about we leave it up to the mapper? If the mapper thinks his map would work with rocketjumping, he would put a variable in the mapconfig.

I voted keep.

Fast paced?
Is Nexuiz a fast paced fps or not? Removing RL-boosting will slow down ctf-gameplay, which means caps on open maps like greatwall will become impossible. And there is one simple way to stop a RLbooster especially on open those maps. That is a good sniper. I've always feared Inficios aim and even pray after a boost that he doesnt hit me.

My expirience
A few day ago i played a public ctf match vs some newbies. All of them (about 4) had MG and were camping in the base. Map was greatwall. Those who have seen me playing know how i attack there. So I attacked with 200/200 and rl. Do you really think i could escape that? No, I didnt. More than 10 times i ran into their MGs and was slaugthered. I was helpless with all my laserjumpskill and RL-BOOSTING. No single cap for me the whole match.

Without RL-boosting
On open maps there are only two weapons used: RL vs nex (or MG in 2.3)
Without RLboosting only nex. That means "greatwall == tdm minsta"
If no RL-boost, then no nex please (and MG 2.3)

Teamplay
People say it will improve teamplay. I think ctf-gameplay will be similar to desertcastle, where 5 players are attacking as a group and hardly anyone will reach the flag. Not to mention returning to base.

Maps
Bundy also told me weapons are ok, maps are not. Imho he's absolutly right. Look at capturecity. Best maps are those which are partitially indoor and outdoor (facingworlds), where EVERY weapon can be used. (Facing has still not enough indoor parts imho, but maps are another topic)

Suggestion
It should be more difficult to RL-boost (NOT weaker). Something like aiming correctly. I've always wondered why RL boosts me forward aiming forward. That is really unrealtic. (Yeah i know Nex is unrealitic). It should boost you backwards. Maybe this way boosting gets more difficult because you have to aim. Aim at the opposite direction you want to go.

Less option in a game will make it uninteressting. So please keep RL-boosting.

I hope my english isnt too bad and you dont get tired reading my long post.

RD: R-boosts act that way because rockets are slow and also seem to spawn late, so chances are when you press fire/secondary fire you're already going as fast or faster than the rocket itself, which is why it will always push you forward (the way you are already moving to).

How can reducing/removing make the game SLOW?

Rocketjump is pretty recent on public servers... In early 2.3 times, when I joined the game, I saw like noone rocketjumping... Was the game SLOW? No.
And what about bunnyhopping, laserjumping and all this? Is it slow?
And... anyway... Who wants a fast game, who wants 5-minutes rounds, where no teamplay can exist...? Is this like "I have no time to play so hurry up plz, I want to win NOW". It's a GAME, not a competition!

I wanted to vote "reduce" but went wrong and hit "remove", but actually I might prefer "remove", I should test that more...

Fast paced is all good and fine, but teamplay should still be encouraged and not hindered.

The value 0.2 for the delay makes rocket boosting still possible, but a bit weaker... but it needs good aiming now. OTOH you get more control from it, once used to it (depending on aim direction, you get boosted in different directions), that may even improve the trick a bit (that is, less speed from it, more control)...

Red Dragon pretty much sums it up for me, but I'll add a couple of things.

First, I think most of the complaints about rocket boosting/flying pertain to matches where there are a small percentage of highly skilled players- ie, those who know how to effectively use this technique. It is certainly frustrating (damn near impossible sometimes) to defend the flag against some of you guys! But I'm getting better at it... and slowly, I'm learning to cap flags that way myself.
There's always going to be pros dominating noobs (how often is the top score several times higher than the second top score?).
Also, there are players that have the movement skills (hopping, laser) which noobs can no more defend against than the rocket boosts.
I think it's just a question of technique and skill level. Maybe for that reason, it could be up to voting as a way to handicap much better players. Otherwise I voted for no change.

zombie wrote:Also, there are players that have the movement skills (hopping, laser) which noobs can no more defend against than the rocket boosts.
I think it's just a question of technique and skill level. Maybe for that reason, it could be up to voting as a way to handicap much better players. Otherwise I voted for no change.

Still, I don't think we want an elitist game...

Also, about handicap, how would you vote that? How do beginners vote? Most of the time, they are the non-voters (hence the new 2.4 voting system to make voting more possible)

Mr. Bougo wrote:In early 2.3 times, when I joined the game, I saw like noone rocketjumping... Was the game SLOW? No.

Exactly. Nexuiz was never slow, even when people weren't rocket-flying. Some have argued that you can't cap on maps like facing worlds if you can't rocket fly. That's just a ridiculous argument. The reason why people don't cap without rocket flying is because they don't rely on teamwork. That's really supposed to be the point of CTF.

You wanna talk impossible? Try to stop red dragon when he's mixing laser jumping + rocket flying. There's just no way to stop him when he does that. You can't nex him or hit him with a rocket because he's moving way too fast. Oh... and you only have 3 seconds to kill him if it's on a map like capture city.

It seems to me that the people who support keeping rocket-flying were the people who use it the most. So the game was "perfect" for them because it gave them a lot more power than the average player.

In comparison....I happen to like and use the RL a lot. However, I'm unhappy that it's a bit too powerful. I would prefer the RL's power and radius get reduced a little bit. That's because I'm more in favor of balancing weapons than wielding power.

If the game isn't balanced (between different techniques and weapons), then it's not as enjoyable for everybody.

Maybe reduce or remove is the answer (with a cvar setting) but definitely not keep.

Imho the more skill needed to make a trickmove (RLBoost), the more you need to learn to PLAY. I've voted for reduce.
Don't remove. This is a feature of Nexuiz. Since 1.0.