Ok, i admit i'm a bit angry at the moment.. there was a time i really enjoyed and loved CTF but it seems to me that time is long gone. So a little sorry first!

Basicly there are too many maps out there that just SUCK but are getting played a lot. I think we have a problem that mappers create maps, server admins just put them online without second thought and players just vote for them again and again for what ever reason..
I know at least one of the famous ctf servers is also used to test the Nexuiz (pre-)releases and thus hosts a lot of maps to find possible bugs but that can't be the only reason.

Lets face it, not every mapper is perfect so maybe we need to be clearer in telling them their maps lack certain things and demand those maps to be removed from servers or fixed. I'm sure quite few of those maps did take a lot of time to create and i do not want to hurt peoples feelings but i'm at a point i'm hardly willing to get online because i do not want to play crappy maps and i think quite a few others feel the same. (The other problem that puplic CTF can't be expected to be really team oriented is an other thing..)

What makes a good CTF map for me: Having several ways from one base to the other which allows to outsmart eachother: the flagcarrier and the defenders
Having enough guns, health, armor near the flags, inside the bases to be able to defend the flag.
Having armor, health near the bases so attackers can stock up and attack.. or having smart people take them away from the attackers.
Having a quad damage or shield powerup that can help turn the tide
Having to FIGHT for the flag.
Making it worthwhile to be near the center of the map to help your team which means armor, health, some guns and the mentioned powerups

I already added some voting to my ctf map guide, i'll list some of the IMO worst/really bad maps that i recently played (there are quite a few other bad maps) in alphabetic order and would like to ask you to list what bad maps you think there are so we can try to avoid those maps online or get the mappers to improve them..


19mai: to cramped, bland textures, having to follow a stolen flag through the teleporter is just un-ctfy. Make it bigger, remove the teleporter (maybe move it into the small house if you wanna keep it), add more, interesting and worthwhile ways then just one between the bases

accident_v2: this one is special, its GOOD but the lift sounds all the time are REALLY annoying, i think on irc it was made clear how to fix them.. and i also was told that map has holes in the clipping allowing people to get outside. THATS just not accepable! Please fix both asap!

arboria: The same. the layout and visuals are GREAT but the item/weapon layout just is screwed. One has to play with at least 12 players due to the huge map but it feels like there are only 6 guns in the whole map and there is just no health/armor for the guys trying to defend the flag. The weapons in the base are uneven (well 2.4.1 might fix that with the new crylink). I also listed some ideas in the thread to the map but sadly torus is busy currently

Canoplasmaspam: This is just a electro spam map. Its broken by design and i take it was a fun on players to see how long they last till they vote for an other map. Server admins should just remove it.

Chasmv2: This one is just crampy, hard to move in and having that long way to fall down after getting fragged is just annoying. It seems like a map being made for Q3 maybe but in Nexuiz he models are bigger.. Make all the ceilings heigher, make all tunnels wider, make the spawn points at the floor, add some sign leading the way.

ftw / wtf: two (or four) bases with a straight way between them and hardly anything else, add some slime to get pushed into and some weapons. I do not even have an idea how to turn this into something other then the joke it seems to be

gravitate: The bases are basicly empty except for the flag, i found only one gun 'near by' which takes almost 15 seconds to grab and get back. It seemed too huge with no 'reason' behind getting from one flag to the other, no guiding, crazy teleporters and jumppads. Make the ways between the two maps meaningful and non-confusing, add weapons and items, make it worth to get 'outside' and maybe add some colors, arrows or other hints were to go

hourglass: A bit special too as this map is good but the clipping bugs are just bad, allow for hiding which can totaly destroy a good game. Please fix those asap!

pushmectf: I'd almost say its broken by design.. most people just use the laser on it, its hardly worth to pickup a gun, the map is too small for more then 4 players and one manages to capture only by luck if not getting hit by a laser or mortar

Slimepitctf: Too large for most players and esp. new players to know how to get from one flag to an other

spyglass-nex: I know were this map comes from and i like the layout of the map but it just does not work the same way in Nexuiz, you can get from the bottom to the flags with one rocketjump.. I think to really port this map to nexuiz one has to take the different movement and larger scale into account. Make the map larger and harder to get so fast to the flags and back again

towers: Maybe i just dislike openly accessible flags.. or i think this is just a bad idea in Nexuiz as its so fast thanks to the laser and various other movement settings. To some amout other maps also have that problem but here its to worst as you 'drop in high' due the jumppad/laserjup and are hard to stop and get away with a single laserjump. Maybe its the far away spawn points or the hard to access weapons that make defending also harder. Maybe it helps switching the armor and flag positions or removing the jumppad at the end of the map but adding several smaller ones at the sides?

This is a very important topic. The developers are putting their hard work into improving the quality of Nexuiz, but the community is largely responsible for creating quality maps for all of us to play. Without quality maps, the game is limited.

I would like to propose some sort of (unofficial or official) standard method or procedure for introducing new maps to the community. The idea would be based on what I've seen some map editors do before:

1) getting feedback during the desgin stage
2) using the beta/rc1/rc2 testing process while placing the maps on official testing servers (I have recently set one up for this purpose)
3) getting input from the community BEFORE the map design process so the map designers know what the community is wanting/needing.

If the map designer wants to ignore suggestions, that's up to them, but then at least the community would have a chance to give some feedback BEFORE the map is released or possibly even created. Then we wouldn't have to have the situations where a map is released and then re-released with version 2 or version 3 only a week later after the community gives feedback to the map editor.

I can already think of a few good examples of this scenario where the end result are maps that have a lot of potential, but nobody plays them. Esteel mentions some perfect examples in his post above. Some are maps that have flaws, but people play them anyway. I'm not sure which is worse.

Any kind of standardization with map design, even as simple as having clearly stated map naming conventions (one of my biggest annoyances with trying to implement new maps or keep up with map versions), or worth its weight in gold, IMO.

As the Nexuiz clan community grows (in the US) we've noticed a serious lack of quality TDM and CTF maps for clan matches. Maybe now is the time to start doing what we can to create the maps that we really could use, with well thought out layouts for team-based play.

(gets off soapbox)

As a final thought....

this has got to interest map designers, because what good is putting all of that effort into a map that nobody ends up playing?

Might want to move this to Nexuiz - General discussion or Nexuiz - Editing.

The Nexuiz Ninjaz map repo has a rating system in planning, this should help server admins decide what's best for their servers. In the mean time or in addition to such a feature, Dokujisan's suggestion of a standard is a very good idea.

However, I still think map previews and map shuffling (server admins) would drastically change the way the community votes. "wtf" is easier to remember than "cor_ctf_b4_3adsf_asdk43asdfsa" whatever the hell.

Thanks for taking the time to write some stuff on Gravitate, I would find some sort of review system for new maps very helpful.
I'll work on the points you raised tomorrow. It's essentially unfinished but I was experiencing a lack of direction so i just whacked a load of items in it and published asap simply to get somebody else's perspective.

Yes, definitely. Thumbnails for map voting would help. When picking maps, I think players often overlook better maps like ctctf6 in favor of horrible maps like king_of_the_hill because they don't recognize either of them by name, but they can at least read king_of_the_hill. If they had thumbnails to look at, perhaps they could remember the maps a bit easier.

I think some players don't even bother voting because they don't remember any of the maps by name.

I agree that many people vote for maps by name. They think "Oh, WTF is a funny name, I'll vote for that."

King of the hill is an interesting concept, but absolutely awful in execution. It should be nuked and redone imo.

I have to admit i am disgruntled as well, i do like fun-maps but not constantly.

I'll just say this AGAIN now, so i dont have to say it again.

if your going to do any Q3 / UT remake's..or even new nexuiz maps.

make them BIG ENOUGH for christ sake!!!!!!!!!!!! or atleast scale them up to a decent size if you port them.

actually im just going to list some key points also.

1) make the rooms, corridors..actually just make everything big enough to be able to maenouvere.
2) make various 'rooms' in the map this is TDM specific now, make some entrances easy to get in some not to hard, think about weapon placement when doing this e.g...electro isnt the best weapon but for a blind corner corridor perhaps put it in the room where its harder to get in..this room would have a powerup for example, so controlling it before powerup spawn is key.

Reason for 'room's' that are inter-linked such as final_rage (although this map is very small) is so that you can control them and control certain weapons and powerups..this adds to the teamplay factor)

the best map i can think of that demonstrates Some of this is dieselpower.

3) powerups baby! , these can swing the tide of games in both ctf and TDM and give the edge a lot of the times to the team that controls them the best.

I just starting to play some TDM now mainly 2v2 atm in clan games, still quite newbie in it with controlling areas this mainly down to nexuiz's lack of good team-based / orientated maps that this is not possible i hope it changes in the near future. If you want demo's how they can change a games tide ask me for some demo's on final_rage or stormkeep against Conquerors and you will see i have POV's from myself and kyre and trying to control the quad before hand and how it changes the game in gap of frags between each team (most of the games are very close).

4) If your going to make a CTF map make it player size specific, whats the point in making a 8-16 player map and then putting 4 weapons it? or no powerups? and then making it the size of an egg for 16 players.

5) try to learn more about item placement, if you want to contact me before hand go ahead and i will go over your map with you and give my ideas what should go where, and why they should, ask some of the more experienced gamers to help also and before you release your maps make sure you ask for proper feedback in the gameplay department.

6) if your going to make a map it doesnt HAVE TO RUN IN EVERY SINGLE GAME MODE POSSIBLE, you can make it game-mode specific.

so many maps i see can be 'played' in TDM / CTF / Domination e.t.c....no they can't all be played in ALL of those gamemodes, they just cant, so many just dont work properly.

some maps..and i mean a very very few maps can work in 2 game-modes, but when there made for 5 different game-modes its just taking the piss.

i get sick and tired of smacking my head on corridors when im bunnyhopping and coming to a fine halt, its annoying and irritating..the problem is slowly being addressed with new maps but it's still common in some places so thank you mappers who have listened to this issue.

when big enough maps are made people seem to think the scale is wrong or something, cause of the height of players, play any other game and you notice the maps are big enough, in nexuiz there is a common problem of making them too small....you have to remember you can laser around at the moment like crazy and the weapons give huge push..mappers dont take these things into consideration and most times you get flung into a ceiling all the time or a wall 2ft away from you.

and oh i better say this before i go.

nifrek did a remake of darkzone for the 'nanl' physics..i can run up the stairs as im circling...what i dont get is why in maps in nexuiz can i not hop up the steps in speed or stair ways..it just seems random / luck at times whenever i do it, is it to do something with bad clipping? i don't know but im sure that this is fixable if nifrek managed to do it with the remake, so im guessing this is possible?


sorry to nag on at mappers, because a lot of the maps that are produced are really nice and have good detail and graphics to them and some have definitely are good or have good potential, but there are way too many rushed maps around.

Indeed naming or renaming the maps could help, as example for me, I never vote for a map I won't recognize by name so except cbctf1 or mikectf, I don't vote for ctf6_q or 70mmwhatever, this is an issue

And facingworlds should have less nex god damn, and brokenworld is laggy and a bit broken (no pun intended), and there's a bit too much greatwall maps, stairs on irena ctf are very hard to climb (they stick ?!) blastedland is a bit slow (and too much nex but why not) begrot is too damn huge (and there's no HP/armor, or maybe add shield or fastiness or multiple quads to get faster)

One of my wonders : has a ctf map got to be symmetrical to be "good" i very much like minima which got plenty of armor ammo hp despite the fact that the red flag is much more easy to defend

well these were my first toughts, indeed a commission to test the maps should be created

There is no way to "fix" the stairs other than to make a playerclip "slide" on them. However, you then can't stand on them anymore, and instead slowly slide down. That's annoying too...

An important thing the mappers should take care of is to make sure the maps don't eat too much fps. There are maps where my frames go below all playable ranges with my company PC that isn't that weak actually (P4/2.6/GF7600GS). Many of them can be found in the Q3 map pack, and nobody knows wtf is eating the frames so bad.

In addition I noticed some maps who are exordinarily sensitive to actually not-so-bad lag. Minstarena for example, and Monolith.

hay, maybe we should have a new map subforum, a topic for every map to put the reviews and experiences in

esteel wrote:What makes a good CTF map for me: Having several ways from one base to the other which allows to outsmart eachother: the flagcarrier and the defenders
Having enough guns, health, armor near the flags, inside the bases to be able to defend the flag.
Having armor, health near the bases so attackers can stock up and attack.. or having smart people take them away from the attackers.
Having a quad damage or shield powerup that can help turn the tide
Having to FIGHT for the flag.
Making it worthwhile to be near the center of the map to help your team which means armor, health, some guns and the mentioned powerups

I think my list would be:
• No obstacles that make the players wait (such as slow doors).
• No squiggly mazes.
• Enough ammo and weapons near the spawn points so the players don't have to run around looking for weapons.
• Don't let it take too long to get from one flag to the other when you're alone on the map.
• Try to give the map a unique style and coherence, rather than just be yet another series of box-rooms with weapons and stuff in them.

I already added some voting to my ctf map guide, i'll list some of the IMO worst/really bad maps that i recently played (there are quite a few other bad maps) in alphabetic order and would like to ask you to list what bad maps you think there are so we can try to avoid those maps online or get the mappers to improve them..

I see you've got two of my maps on your list.
Canoplasmaspam: When this map appears on the vote list, there's a 50/50% chance of it being chosen (or so it seems to me). I think players vote for it because they know what it is and they like it - it's very fast and quickly over.
Chasmv2: Players have told me they like this map because of the cramped spaces. In fact, when I announced that I was working on v2, there were players who specifically asked that I did not make the internal corridors wider. IOW there are people who like this map for the same reasons you hate it.

The problem with deciding that a map is "bad" is that it's ultimately a question of taste. You hate those two maps, while others love them. The same applies to Torus, Altars, Falling Down, and Blasted Lands; I've heard players loudly declare their hatred while others apparently love them. There are even players who enjoy RustVents.

As for your list of "bad maps", I agree with some of them but not with others. It's a question of taste. A list of your "perfect maps" would probably include several maps that other players loathe. Instead of trying to have the maps you dislike yanked from the servers (or getting the mappers to make them the way you want them to be), I would suggest you open them in Radiant and fix them, like I did with desertcastles6 (is my mod up on any servers yet, btw?), and then let the players decide which version they like the most.

Feel free to start with Chasmv2 or Canoplasmaspam.

Dokujisan wrote:Yes, definitely. Thumbnails for map voting would help.

I've been asking / hoping for this ever since I started playing Nex. Instead of having a small text list of map names (which can often be hard to read against some backgrounds), how about tiling the screen with clickable preview thumbs? Much easier to know what you're voting for that way. And maybe put the name of the maps and author beneath the preview thumb just to make sure.

Other things which ruin gameplay:
The sky:

It just ruins gameplay if I want to laserjump from one point to another and miss my jump because I hit the sky... NOBODY expects the SKY to be as low as a CEILING in a HOUSE!

Invisible Walls

Take a look at maps from you know who... like desertcastles6... with the invisible walls... or that newer castles map where you can even run above weapons because there's an invisible ceiling there... and you have to go there from underground...

MGs:

Putting MGs in a wide open space / on open maps is just an extremely dumb idea sine it's an instant-hit weapon...

Those are reasons why I hardly play nexuiz anymore...
I join a server for having fun, and then I move around, jump, climb, whatever, and hit invisible walls, or I want to fall down a pit, BUT CAN'T because it's blocked by an invisible wall... WHAT'S THE POINT?
Or I run around on a huge map and get constant hits from an MG guy who's lightyears away from me on an open map...

No
Fun

Showing the map images is just NOT POSSIBLE currently.. its a good idea but it needs quite some work to make it happen! Maybe some of Blubs research for his command map can be 'reused' though.

Honestly i think the reason people like Canoplasmaspam is because they should rather play FFA then ctf! They just want to spam around and frag senselessly. Maybe the same is true for why people like Chasm.. its narrow so hitting someone is (too) easy. People that like that style of play are those players that just join and try to frag instead of playing CTF!

It might sound arrogant but you need good experianced players to make ctf fun for everyone and most of those players want to play CTF in a sensible way on sensible maps! Having two flags basicly next to each other with only a quaterhigh-laserjump separating them is NOT sensible nor challenging. I KNOW there is different taste and noone is supposed to dictate stuff for others but the way i see it is: Either please those that favor good gameplay or loose them.. and with them loose the fun and drive in the game.

I do not mean to tell people how to create maps, but rather to keep in mind that you might drive off NEEDED people with all those 'ohhh cute and fun' maps and that new players might get a wrong first impression when joining to see that Nexuiz is about! I admit i also can enjoy some of those maps now and then but please not 5 maps at a row! Maybe its a good idea to have seperate servers for 'real' ctf maps and 'fun' ctf maps???
And i just guess the situation for TDM, KH and DOM is even worse..

As far as the previews are concerned
Yep it can be done, but it only works for the maps you already have, so if a new map comes up, you don't see the preview...

Still, what about the most basic idea: giving the maps actual NAMES...

One quick comment about bad things in maps... facing worlds has a damage trigger above the middle area of the bridge, which kills me every time I grapple across, or strength-laser jump across the map, it's incredibly annoying and completely non-intuitive (if I could at least see it I'd maybe know how to avoid it, but right now I just die in midair), I'd be okay with the map being altered to PUT SOMETHING IN THE WAY but an invisible kill brush is just stupid.

Hah, this is what I hated when using grapple too, but on a serious server, that is, a non grapple one (no offense ^^), I think it's even a GOOD idea

Try the following with grapple:
Fall down the back of the tower
grapple its top and use the circular speed you gain to boost yourself to the other tower

reminds me of that old space game where you fly around a gravity point :>

divVerent wrote:There is no way to "fix" the stairs other than to make a playerclip "slide" on them. However, you then can't stand on them anymore, and instead slowly slide down. That's annoying too...

Can this be tested against the players speed?

Code: Select all

if($playerspeed > 50) {
   playerclip.slide
} else {
   playerclip.noslide
}

Blµb wrote:As far as the previews are concerned
Yep it can be done, but it only works for the maps you already have, so if a new map comes up, you don't see the preview....

Just display a default image that says, "New map!" or "zomg you haven't played this yet!"

The stairs: what i like to do with my stairs is make some 'ramps for the disabled' as I like to call them. Like the ones on Stormkeep and Warfare. If you want to stand still you can stand on the steps and when you want to hit them at speed aim for the ramps Not only does this give a nice look to the stairs, it is very effective. It is not bad imho to have some aspects of the map focused on gameplay instead of looks. This is not to say that this means they should look bad, but you can put stuff into maps that will improve people's speed and gameplay ONLY to improve speed and gameplay

The preview images: Could the game not draw from a universal download source ? One http address that has all the images of all the maps known to Nexuiz ? So that when you do not have the map it downloads the image from that external source ?

CTF gameplay: I am not a CTF player at all so can not really comment on the technical bit. But could the problem be that the mappers who make them have a failing perception of what CTF play is like ?

I do think a LOT of responsibility lies with the server operators as well ! They have to make a good selection of all the maps that are out there. Don't just bung a map on your CTF server only because it supports CTF. Like esteel says, it might be that it supports the game mode but it does not automatically mean that it is playable as well

How about we develop a Mappers Guide that has no info about 'download GtkRadiant, install, build, caulk, blabla' but just a set of general directions for mappers about map layout, item placement, etcetera. More like a gameplay guide with stuff for every Nexuiz gamemode. Start with DM and CTF then TDM, Keyhunt, etc. There is a big group of motivated Nexuiz mappers, use them to your advantage

As an afterthought: would it be a good idea for esteel to get control over a good CTF server if he feels up to that ? Only put maps on there that you think are good CTF maps. Hell, you could even bring back the old fashioned rotation system of choosing map to protect people against themselves it's still supported in Nexuiz so why not. Just a thought

edit: also, do not say sorry because airing your frustrations in such a well spoken manner makes great impact when it comes from someone like you and I think people will really think about it, as is shown already from the great number of constructive posts. In the end, if action is taken in these area's the level of this game can only become even higher

http://method.gamedesign.net/ctf_tips.htm
http://www.doom3world.org/phpbb2/viewto ... f=1&t=9380

That is a good base to start from, but it should go even further to take into account the Nexuiz weapons and powerups, how they affect gameplay and how they should affect map design as well.

Clueless Newbie wrote:I would suggest you open them in Radiant and fix them, like I did with desertcastles6 (is my mod up on any servers yet, btw?), and then let the players decide which version they like the most.

Feel free to start with Chasmv2 or Canoplasmaspam.

There was no .map file in Chasmv2 but I ran it through q3map2 at -scale1.5. It can go up to 2 and still be fun but I thought this would be appealing to a wider variety of players.

Without further ado Chasmv2_x_1.5
It's on all the nexuiz ninjaz ctf servers.

ftw / wtf: two (or four) bases with a straight way between them and hardly anything else, add some slime to get pushed into and some weapons. I do not even have an idea how to turn this into something other then the joke it seems to be

- And is.

/me wins, has 2 maps ppl bash about :p

FruitieX: Well i'm not necessarily bashing maps i'm just listing weak points they have. As i said i can also enjoy such maps but only for a limited time

Clueless Newbie: Thats a good hint but well i KNOW that i do not have a clue about mapping itself as i never done it but i DO know about gameplay and layout. Sure there are different tastes but 'fixing' maps by doing a remix or reloaded version of them is also bad as there are then many different maps that will just confuse players. Best example was mirrorzone which was darkzone just 'the other way round' it was really mind boggling

Urmel: Well the maps from the mappack are q3 maps and never optimized for Nexuiz but i think in 2.4.1 they should be very playable even on your computer

Having a map rating on nexuizninjaz would be great, I think LordHavoc also suggested to have 'community approved' map packs of good maps to help server admins choose maps. I like that idea, so i think i'll start a thread about good maps shortly..

divVerent wrote:There is no way to "fix" the stairs other than to make a playerclip "slide" on them. However, you then can't stand on them anymore, and instead slowly slide down. That's annoying too...

You can instead use a set of smaller playerclip steps in between the normal steps. This is what Strahlemann suggested for bloodprisonctf so that it didn't have the same problems with bots jumping at the steps that the standard bloodprison used to have.

on bloodprison i can go up the steps with speed me thinks, but most of the maps i cannot.

i'd rather slowly 'slide' and be able to move up them then not slide and get stuck most of the time when im trying to keep my speed to get around a map whilst using them.

k0jak wrote:on bloodprison i can go up the steps with speed me thinks, but most of the maps i cannot.

i'd rather slowly 'slide' and be able to move up them then not slide and get stuck most of the time when im trying to keep my speed to get around a map whilst using them.

I can fix the speed loss on stairs in the server code, the client already does not lose speed (which is the main reason why prediction glitches so often).

The problem is reduced if you use cl_netfps 1000 or so (it's capped by your current fps).

esteel wrote:Honestly i think the reason people like Canoplasmaspam is because they should rather play FFA then ctf! They just want to spam around and frag senselessly.

Well, I like Canoplasmaspam (getting a bit bored with it now though), but I've never really liked FFA. Canoplasmaspam isn't FFA, it's just extremely chaotic CTF.

Maybe the same is true for why people like Chasm.. its narrow so hitting someone is (too) easy. People that like that style of play are those players that just join and try to frag instead of playing CTF!

Nope. It's just a style that different from the style you prefer.

It might sound arrogant but you need good experianced players to make ctf fun for everyone

That is simply not possible. I've been making game levels since... 1996(?), and one thing I've learned in all those years is that you can never please everybody. The more some people like a level, the more somebody else will hate it. And if you make levels that are designed to please as many players as possible, you'll end up with a bland, boring level that bores everybody and then nobody will be happy. Appealing to the masses might ensure that nobody is revolted, but the result will always be like airplane food; bland and tasteless.
IMO the best way to go is for me to make levels that I want to play, and then hope other people also want to play those levels.

I do not mean to tell people how to create maps, but rather to keep in mind that you might drive off NEEDED people with all those 'ohhh cute and fun' maps and that new players might get a wrong first impression when joining to see that Nexuiz is about! I admit i also can enjoy some of those maps now and then but please not 5 maps at a row! Maybe its a good idea to have seperate servers for 'real' ctf maps and 'fun' ctf maps???

But who gets to decide what maps are "real" and which are "fun"?

And i just guess the situation for TDM, KH and DOM is even worse..

I wish the CTF servers would allow a third vote when the map has been chosen; between KH, DOM, and CTF (or whichever are available) on the map they've chosen. I think that would get more players to try out those game-types. Even though I prefer CTF, I would like to play DOM and KH now and then. But the servers are always empty.

Actually, I've never played DOM.