divVerent wrote:And just for reference:

Crylink Secondary = 20 damage * 7 shots = 280. Even in 2.3... and nobody found THAT overpowered

actually i did, and the hagar statement can go right out of the window, that weapon is a Lot harder to use then the crylink, i don't care about theoretical figures, put it in practice and the crylink is just stupid now.

oh and the fact you cant use any explosive weapon against it now without it blowing you up 50% of the time, and no im not joking it's really pissing me off so much i can't even fire at someone with an explosive weapon cause im not sure if i'll even manage one shot vs them with a crylink.

i just played online on some TDM server with the Crylink and i liked it. That's NOT a good sign!

Maybe some fine-tuning would do and perhaps rebalancing the rest of the weapons a bit.

I've always felt the crylink the most good looking, most high-tech weapon in the game, and tho most useless too. It looks like an alien heavy assault weapon, but it just doesn't do what I'd image for a weapon like this.

What about adding a spin-up and spin-down time for the crylink primary? Like the chaingun had in quake2. It dealt MASSIVE damage, but you had to start fire before you saw your opponent, and you had to know when to get you finger off from the trigger, or you've ended up with no ammo left.

Primary: spin-up spin-down, deals massive damage after warmed in, eats ammo like hell, no ricochet.
Secondary: Just like now, but maybe more slower refire, ricochetting, and maybe even more damage. (alien super shotgun?)

C.Brutail wrote:Primary: spin-up spin-down, deals massive damage after warmed in, eats ammo like hell, no ricochet.

That's interesting. Kinda reminds me of the Nuke weapon in Turok 2.

Yep, it should definitely eat more ammo as it is now.
Dunno about the spin-up. Only really works for me in games where you can SEE that something on your weapon is happening.

I like this spin up / spin down idea actually.

Is it possible to incorporate more firemodes than the available two?

Strahlemann wrote:Yep, it should definitely eat more ammo as it is now.
Dunno about the spin-up. Only really works for me in games where you can SEE that something on your weapon is happening.

Could probably just do it with a sound effect. Even have it the opposite of the machine gun, have the first few shots fire weakly and eventually reach maximum power.

The new crylink breaks many maps (ie: dusty), it's just too powerful, not just because it makes that kind of damage but because it's way too easy to use. It's always been a fun weapon to use even before it got changed, I personnaly liked it like it was when neg force was added. Even BEFORE that I liked it and used it close range. Now I can use it even from long range and get frags without using any skill, it's just stupid.

The haggar might be more powerful but the size of projectiles makes it easy to dodge unless the player using is has a very good aim/movement prediction or the player getting shot at is stuck in a corner or not moving. The new crylink any one can use. And in the hand of someone with good aim, it's too ridiculously effective.

I still doubt that it is THAT much effective, however, it is reduced in power in Nexuiz svn (it now eats twice as much ammo, and the bounce is now just half as effective as before), simply because that made it NUMERICALLY too strong.

However, three well used servers are now equipped with stats recording of any kills/deaths involving any weapons, and calculate weapon strength stats based on that. Let's see if the Crylink is really overpowered.

I think the only thing that needs to be done to the crylink is lower the rate of fire.

Current stats on my CTF server:

Code: Select all

  Nex                   0.50409 |   .    +0.043 +0.038 +0.329 +0.156 +0.221 +0.419 +0.283 +0.778
  Rocket Launcher       0.43581 | -0.043   .    +0.156 +0.107 +0.195 +0.111 +0.191 +0.400 +0.846
  Uzi                   0.27695 | -0.038 -0.156   .    +0.008 +0.065 +0.191 +0.099 +0.296 +0.782
  Hagar                 0.22820 | -0.329 -0.107 -0.008   .    +0.052 +0.043 +0.263 +0.306 +0.807
  Crylink               0.15526 | -0.156 -0.195 -0.065 -0.052   .    +0.072 +0.018 +0.335 +0.741
  Electro               0.05886 | -0.221 -0.111 -0.191 -0.043 -0.072   .    +0.010 +0.246 +0.647
  Mortar               -0.03949 | -0.419 -0.191 -0.099 -0.263 -0.018 -0.010   .    +0.155 +0.667
  Shotgun              -0.34285 | -0.283 -0.400 -0.296 -0.306 -0.335 -0.246 -0.155   .    +0.478
  Laser                -1.27683 | -0.778 -0.846 -0.782 -0.807 -0.741 -0.647 -0.667 -0.478   .

On my DM+Crylink server:

Code: Select all

  Rocket Launcher       0.74883 |   .    +0.231 +0.191 +0.185 +0.304 +0.412 +0.417 +1.000 +0.630
  Hagar                 0.45551 | -0.231   .    -0.206 +0.600 +0.333 +0.077 +0.333 +0.143 +1.000
  Crylink               0.38627 | -0.191 +0.206   .    -0.051 +0.205 +0.071 +0.333 +0.676 +0.490
  Nex                   0.19176 | -0.185 -0.600 +0.051   .    +0.333 -0.286 +0.750  0.000 +0.800
  Mortar                0.10543 | -0.304 -0.333 -0.205 -0.333   .    +0.200 +0.250 +0.600 +0.600
  Electro               0.06137 | -0.412 -0.077 -0.071 +0.286 -0.200   .    -0.333 +0.750 +0.333
  Uzi                  -0.26923 | -0.417 -0.333 -0.333 -0.750 -0.250 +0.333   .      .    +0.538
  Laser                -0.73586 | -1.000 -0.143 -0.676  0.000 -0.600 -0.750   .      .    -0.143
  Shotgun              -0.94408 | -0.630 -1.000 -0.490 -0.800 -0.600 -0.333 -0.538 +0.143   .

On DCC's plain server (has only half a day worth of stats yet, though):

Code: Select all

  Rocket Launcher       0.56124 |   .    +0.009 +0.238 +0.173 +0.244 +0.255 +0.424 +0.472 +0.711
  Electro               0.25749 | -0.009   .    -0.143 +0.009 +0.304 -0.036 +0.348 +0.248 +0.437
  Crylink               0.25716 | -0.238 +0.143   .    -0.043 -0.053 +0.217 +0.189 +0.342 +0.600
  Mortar                0.25609 | -0.173 -0.009 +0.043   .    -0.120 +0.235 +0.292 +0.313 +0.571
  Hagar                 0.22901 | -0.244 -0.304 +0.053 +0.120   .    -0.087 +0.333 +0.303 +0.857
  Nex                  -0.01536 | -0.255 +0.036 -0.217 -0.235 +0.087   .    +0.068 +0.063 +0.385
  Uzi                  -0.28796 | -0.424 -0.348 -0.189 -0.292 -0.333 -0.068   .    +0.131 +0.228
  Shotgun              -0.33206 | -0.472 -0.248 -0.342 -0.313 -0.303 -0.063 -0.131   .    +0.376
  Laser                -0.92561 | -0.711 -0.437 -0.600 -0.571 -0.857 -0.385 -0.228 -0.376   .

Play more on these servers to generate good stats on weapon balance.

ok, this is getting ridiculous. Everyone uses the crylink now because of how overpowered it is and how little skill it takes to be effective with it. This is obvious on maps like greatwall_remix where people just grab the crylink and spray the whole field with it.

I like that the crylink was tweaked, but it just went too far.

How about make the refire longer...

Then how do you explain the fact that greatwall reloaded is dominated by the Nex on my server, and NOT the crylink (which was in the middle, with Nex, Uzi, RL, Hagar in front of it)

Div, I dunno. I know that I avoid using it unlessI have to because it feels lame to use (I felt similarly to the machine gun in 2.3).

How do you explain all of the complaints about the crylink? Are statistics the only thing that you consider? Numbers don't lie, but they can be up for interpretation.

All I know is that lots of players on open maps (greatwall and remix are good examples) will use the crylink now to spray the field with fire, which takes absolutely no skill to do and is extremely effective because the crylink is so powerful now. At close range, the crylink is difficult to aim so it stays in balance a little bit (though it's still super powerful). At a distance, it barely requires aim to hit someone. So it's being used as a sniper weapon that doesn't require aim.

What if the crylink's power got weaker at a distance? AFAIK, there aren't any weapons in Nexuiz where the power dissipates as the projectile travels. Maybe this can be the first.

I saw this in the SVN log from lordhavoc

redesigned crylink primary, may need additional balancing
crylink primary now bounces once, and has a splash radius of 80 on each
bounce, it does not bounce if it hits a soft target, this means that
bouncing shots off the floor directly infront of a player can do about
50% more damage, and if you hit the floor to the side of a player you
can still do a little (about 50%) damage

Again, I agree that the crylink needed tweaking, but this is just too much. I feel like it was raised 5 notches when it really only needed to be raised 2 notches to be in balance with the other weapons.[/quote]

I think the Crylink is ANYTHING but overpowered - and you all only believe so because it was so weak before, but now is on par with the "useful weapons" (Nex, RL, Mortar, Electro). So the "overpoweredness" is purely psychological.

However, what I do agree that can be changed is its ammo use. I already changed it in svn and on my server to take 2 ammo per shot - that gives it a "usual" damage/cell rating - but maybe the ammo consumption should be increased to somewhere from 3 to 5, to reduce the spamming.

As for shots that weaken over distance - against. The fact that the Crylink is fast and has no range limit is useful to annoy campers at a distance, and we all agree that camping is lame and should be punished . I wonder how odd would it be if only the outer shots "dissipate", and the center shot stays unlimited. That may be the best from both worlds - it stays equally useful at a distance, but gets less spammy from that.

It's not psychological. All of the regular players that I talk to feel the same way about it. Are we all dillusional? Come on. :-/

Get in a tunnel with someone who has a crylink and usually death comes quickly. The main thing that saves me from crylink death is when they run out of ammo. If they have enough ammo, then I'm just out of luck. If you are in a field and someone with a crylink is spamming in your direction, it's virtually impossible to evade, especially because of the bouncing. You can't even hide behind something because the bounce can come back and hit you from behind. IMO, this is worse than the 2.3 machine gun problem because the crylink has a wider spread and does more damage with bounces and radius damage.

It used to take skill to use the crylink because it was really powerful in close range, but damn hard to aim (there's a slight delay between firing and when the bolt actually comes out). Many considered the crylink nearly worthless outside of that scenario. The crylink merely needed to be tweaked a little bit to get it inline with the rest of the weapons.

Damage is increased
Blast radius is increased
Ammo per shot is decreased
The pull effect.
Primary shots bounce
Bounces + radius damage give up to 50% boost to damage

That's a lot of changes in a short time (though I imagine the last one on the list was probably not intentional).

Different ideas to consider:

Make bounce shots weaker
Increase the ammo use (like you suggested)
Reduce or remove blast radius
Make shots decrease in power at a distance (you can still attack a sniper with it because the spread is small).

While we're on the topic, I always thought it odd that the secondary is very similar to the primary for the crylink. For an "energy" weapon, it seems like there could be something else for secondary to do. I was thinking that maybe primary crylink can be reduced a bit but then secondary crylink can be changed to make it more useful in different scenarios, like perhaps a slower arching shot (like mortar but with a slight spread) for shooting over walls. Imagine being outside the base on greatwall and arching over the wall with secondary crylink shots to try to soften the defense while a teammate attacks. This would make it similar, but different, to the electro. It would be like crylink "rain". You have options to have a tighter spread that is more power or a wider spread that is less powerful but hits more people.

Maybe if secondary crylink hits you, it slows you down for a second. I dunno. Just brainstorming. I would like to see crylink become more useful in different scenarios, but not be so dominant like it's current version.

Look, I know it can be frustrating for developers to get feedback from people complaining about everything under the sun, and I'm SURE that game balancing is one of the hardest parts of game development.

I just hope that our feedback means something and doesn't fall on deaf ears.

Doku, you mentioned my name? what's up?

haha

The fact is, the crylink is too powerful. As of now, it's arguably the second most powerful weapon. I think the solution is simple- either make the fire rate slower, or maybe have an "overheat" feature; the player would be able to shoot at the current speed for 4 shots, then it would require a cool-down time of 1.5-2.0 seconds. That would sufficiently balance it, imo

oooh, an overheat feature. Now that might work.

torus wrote:4 shots, then it would require a cool-down time of 1.5-2.0 seconds. That would sufficiently balance it, imo

I don't mean to be nitpicky but I think 4 shots may be too many, 3 would be more fair but probably still too strong.

I think the max should be weakened to 100-110 in combination with a 3 shot limit before overheating.

I do like the overheating idea.

Yea, I agree. 3 shots, then an overheat would be great. Of course, it wouldn't overheat if you didn't just hold down fire. Only trying to shoot more than 3 shots within n number of seconds would trigger the overheat. Skilled players could maximize their damage by avoiding overheating.

Dokujisan wrote:I saw this in the SVN log from lordhavoc

redesigned crylink primary, may need additional balancing
crylink primary now bounces once, and has a splash radius of 80 on each
bounce, it does not bounce if it hits a soft target, this means that
bouncing shots off the floor directly infront of a player can do about
50% more damage, and if you hit the floor to the side of a player you
can still do a little (about 50%) damage

Again, I agree that the crylink needed tweaking, but this is just too much. I feel like it was raised 5 notches when it really only needed to be raised 2 notches to be in balance with the other weapons.

Meh plz dont take this bounce powah away! its a lovely feature thats somewhat but not to hard to use. Personaly i would not mind the primary mode getting range limited and upping the ammo use tho.

torus wrote:Yea, I agree. 3 shots, then an overheat would be great. Of course, it wouldn't overheat if you didn't just hold down fire. Only trying to shoot more than 3 shots within n number of seconds would trigger the overheat. Skilled players could maximize their damage by avoiding overheating.

kinda reminds me of my old HLAC weapon design. the overheating of that one coused it to become more and more inaccurate tho.

I committed "spam limiting" of the crylink primary: the weapon stays as effective as it is at distances < 1400; starting from that distance, the outer projectiles fade out (till they are at distance 3500). So for long range spam, it becomes useless, but stays useful at short range, or for sniping campers away (for these, only the center shot is really useful). That should at least help against the spamming.

Cool stuff, Div!

I'd also like to express my affinity to ricochet. More weapons should have that. How about tweaking the Electro blobs to shoot at highspeed and bounce thru the whole map? They are too much like grenades right now. (duh, why not make the primary ricochet.... silly me.)

tZork wrote:

torus wrote:Yea, I agree. 3 shots, then an overheat would be great. Of course, it wouldn't overheat if you didn't just hold down fire. Only trying to shoot more than 3 shots within n number of seconds would trigger the overheat. Skilled players could maximize their damage by avoiding overheating.

kinda reminds me of my old HLAC weapon design. the overheating of that one coused it to become more and more inaccurate tho.

Well, then we would have to implement an overheat meeter on the hud, otherwise people who didn't know it was overheated would just think they're mouse is wonky.