The hook is almost never enabled on "serious" CTF servers (or other modes for that matter), mostly because it completely changes the gameplay. Instead of CTF, it turns into Spiderman base jumping, which most of us agree is only fun for a few minutes.

Part of the reason is that the hook has extreme range. My idea is to add a var to limit the maximum hook extension. Maybe we could even make it faster, give it a short distance, and set it as the laser secondary fire. When I say short distance, I mean maybe just up to the flag platform on egg&bacon. I could imagine it complementing the laser and being a lot of fun without ruining some maps the way the normal hook does. You would be able to both push and pull yourself around.

Changing it from a "hook" to some sort of tractor beam to fit the weapon would probably be easy and make more sense too (it's just an ugly white line anyway, right?).

This could all be configurable so that the Herforst "Let's play Facing with hook for 5 hours" Elite aficionados would still have their hook.




The other idea, while we're on movement... I'd like to see the Warsow special movement key in Nexuiz (maybe tweaked to suit Nexuiz instead of a direct clone, but wall jumps and dashes would be amazing).

Xeno The Blind wrote:...add a var to limit the maximum hook extension.

Good idea.

Xeno The Blind wrote:...make it faster, give it a short distance

Good idea.

Xeno The Blind wrote:...use as the laser secondary fire.

Bad idea. I really like and use the current set up, it is now very easy to change to the laser, make a jump and return to the previous weapon.

Xeno The Blind wrote:When I say short distance, I mean maybe just up to the flag platform on egg&bacon.

That is still to far. Maybe only allow the hook within 30 degrees of vertical. This would stop the cross map flying, but allow you to quickly ascend a wall or building.

The only solution imho:
CSQC+onhand grapple.

This all sounds well and good for CTF servers, but please don't mess with the hook for DM/Minsta/LMS servers.

Pyromace wrote:This all sounds well and good for CTF servers, but please don't mess with the hook for DM/Minsta/LMS servers.

That's why I said to make it configurable.

seriuos CTF with hook.. eeeks never

you can change the speed of the hook .. so stirke maybe

and i think Herforst would be boring now.. i don't even know where to place a key for the hook..

Xeno The Blind wrote:

Pyromace wrote:This all sounds well and good for CTF servers, but please don't mess with the hook for DM/Minsta/LMS servers.

That's why I said to make it configurable.

ah yes, sorry

I like xeno's suggestion.

Another variation could be a timelimit for the hook where it disappears after a set time. That would keep people from hanging from the ceilings and it would have the secondary effect of limiting the distance that someone can reach with the hook.

Xeno The Blind wrote:... which most of us agree is only fun for a few minutes.

The bias in the quoted statement is mutually exclusive to any objectivity of the sentences proceeding.

Xeno The Blind wrote:... My idea is to add a var to ... [the grappling] hook ...
Maybe we could even set it as the laser secondary fire. ...

Xeno The Blind wrote:... Changing it from a "hook" to some sort of tractor beam ...

There already do exist CVars for adjusting all the properties for the grappling hook I have imagined so far, this is inclusive of your requests with the exception of an on-hand grappling hook, I assume a 'tractor beam' is property change, rather than a cosmetic change.

Xeno The Blind wrote:... maybe just up to the flag platform on egg&bacon. I could imagine it complementing the laser and being a lot of fun without ruining some maps the way the normal hook does. ...

Doing it and an on-hand grappling hook provides no positive difference to existing gameplay, which either it or maps for it have been proven flawed.

Xeno The Blind wrote:The other idea, while we're on movement... I'd like to see the Warsow special movement key in Nexuiz (maybe tweaked to suit Nexuiz instead of a direct clone, but wall jumps and dashes would be amazing).

This is Nexuiz, with the sole purpose of being Nexuiz, a simple, fast, intense shooter - Warsow exists for the purpose of being Warsow.

Xeno The Blind wrote:The other idea, while we're on movement... I'd like to see the Warsow special movement key in Nexuiz (maybe tweaked to suit Nexuiz instead of a direct clone, but wall jumps and dashes would be amazing).

This is Nexuiz, with the sole purpose of being Nexuiz, a simple, fast, intense shooter - Warsow exists for the purpose of being Warsow.

Warsow feels way faster because of the dash key . Has anyone played for example Facing Worlds CTF in Warsow? That's ... fast action.

Xeno The Blind wrote:Changing it from a "hook" to some sort of tractor beam to fit the weapon would probably be easy and make more sense too (it's just an ugly white line anyway, right?)..

I believe sv_hook_tarzan is the variable for controlling whether you swing (like Tarzan) or just go forward, like a tractor beam.

Having a max length to the hook would definitely make it more tactical to play with.

"sv_hook_tarzan" only toggles the swinging effect. A "tractor beam" would pull objects toward you, instead of you being pulled by the hook.

TVR wrote:

Xeno The Blind wrote:... which most of us agree is only fun for a few minutes.

The bias in the quoted statement is mutually exclusive to any objectivity of the sentences proceeding.

That's one of the things I like about you, TVR... the silliness of your statements is directly proportional to the degree to which you overextend your eloquence for pure rhetorical effect.

Now, if you truly wish to appear as hyper-intellectual on a gaming forum, which in and of itself is highly pretentious, I'll play along. Yes, the statement itself is subject to a sample bias and extrapolation of any conclusions thus drawn to the whole population (read: Nexuiz community) is prone to error. Nevertheless, when one considers that the sample in question is a large part of the core CTF community and that the same are generally the ones who respond to such threads, the bias is not as great in relation to the intended audience. While arguments such as "everyone I know" etc are generally flawed if applied to much larger populations, the validity of such extrapolations increase as the fraction of the sample size to the population increases.

It appears that you're looking for a forum in which such posts would be based on careful statistical analysis of survey data, free from the author's own biases etc. I therefore take it upon myself to remind you that this is a gaming forum and that you need to lighten up.

TVR wrote:There already do exist CVars for adjusting all the properties for the grappling hook I have imagined so far.

Another pretentious statement. Rather than supply the cvars that you believe exist, you simply state that all the ones that YOU've imagine already exist, as if to come across as superior in that you've had this idea before.

TVR wrote:Doing it and an on-hand grappling hook provides no positive difference to existing gameplay

I'm not sure what you were referring to here, as the text that you quoted above this statement doesn't appear to correspond to it. Perhaps you meant the idea of adding the hook to the laser and changing it to a tractor beam. That would definitely change gameplay as it would make hook usage mutually exclusive with other weapons.

Also, I'm not aware of ever having placed Nexuiz with a hook that had a distance limited to the one mentioned in my post. Still, I cannot possibly imagine that hook range would have no practical implication for gameplay.

TVR wrote:This is Nexuiz, with the sole purpose of being Nexuiz, a simple, fast, intense shooter - Warsow exists for the purpose of being Warsow.

You know what is strange, for someone who seems to put so much effort into mulling over details, TVR provides so little substance to discussions.

Anyway, I like when discussions end up with breaking out the college words and using less common speech patterns.

MUTINY!

TVR, your entire existence is undermined by using "proceeding" instead of "preceding".

Xeno The Blind wrote:

TVR wrote:

Xeno The Blind wrote:... which most of us agree is only fun for a few minutes.

The bias in the quoted statement is mutually exclusive to any objectivity of the sentences proceeding.

Nevertheless, when one considers that the sample in question is a large part of the core CTF community, and that the same are generally the ones who respond to such threads, the bias is not as great in relation to the intended audience.

'One' is a only a shortened equivalent of 'everyone', or 'anyone', and the usage of the term to express a personal interpretation is a misrepresentation.

A definite article, 'the', should not be used, especially to define a subjective term, if objectivity is to remain.

'Generally' & 'great' are intensifiers, and also should not be used if objectivity is to remain.

'Is', when used without an explicit pronoun, is a factual statement, therefore it should not be used if the actual statement is false or subjective.

Xeno The Blind wrote:... validity of such extrapolations increase as the fraction of the sample size to the population increases.

The sample or population have yet to be established; furthermore, it would subsist as partial if done by a personal analysis.

Xeno The Blind wrote:It appears that you're looking for a forum in which such posts would be based on careful statistical analysis of survey data, free from the author's own biases etc. I therefore take it upon myself to remind you that this is a gaming forum and that you need to lighten up.

Context is irrelevant to the discussion of methods of true verification

Xeno The Blind wrote:

TVR wrote:There already do exist CVars for adjusting all the properties for the grappling hook I have imagined so far.

Another pretentious statement. Rather than supply the cvars that you believe exist, you simply state that all the ones that YOU've imagine already exist, as if to come across as superior in that you've had this idea before.

TVR had actually wrote:

Xeno The Blind wrote:... My idea is to add a var to ... [the grappling] hook ...
Maybe we could even set it as the laser secondary fire. ...

Xeno The Blind wrote:... Changing it from a "hook" to some sort of tractor beam ...

There already do exist CVars for adjusting all the properties for the grappling hook I have imagined so far, this is inclusive of your requests with the exception of an on-hand grappling hook, I assume a 'tractor beam' is property change, rather than a cosmetic change.

Xeno The Blind wrote:

TVR wrote:This is Nexuiz, with the sole purpose of being Nexuiz, a simple, fast, intense shooter - Warsow exists for the purpose of being Warsow.

Why bother making Nexuiz similar to Warsow, when Warsow already fills that niche?

Dave wrote:TVR, your entire existence is undermined by using "proceeding" instead of "preceding".

Re-evaluate that statement, recheck the referenced post to reread the quoted post, recheck definitions & differences between 'proceeding' & 'preceding'.

TVR wrote:

Xeno The Blind wrote:The other idea, while we're on movement... I'd like to see the Warsow special movement key in Nexuiz (maybe tweaked to suit Nexuiz instead of a direct clone, but wall jumps and dashes would be amazing).

This is Nexuiz, with the sole purpose of being Nexuiz, a simple, fast, intense shooter - Warsow exists for the purpose of being Warsow.

I hate simple

TVR wrote:

Xeno The Blind wrote:

TVR wrote:

Xeno The Blind wrote:... which most of us agree is only fun for a few minutes.

The bias in the quoted statement is mutually exclusive to any objectivity of the sentences proceeding.

Nevertheless, when one considers that the sample in question is a large part of the core CTF community, and that the same are generally the ones who respond to such threads, the bias is not as great in relation to the intended audience.

'One' is a only a shortened equivalent of 'everyone', or 'anyone', and the usage of the term to express a personal interpretation is a misrepresentation.

A definite article, 'the', should not be used, especially to define a subjective term, if objectivity is to remain.

'Generally' & 'great' are intensifiers, and also should not be used if objectivity is to remain.

'Is', when used without an explicit pronoun, is a factual statement, therefore it should not be used if the actual statement is false or subjective.

... meh
Could we get back to the topic?

TVR wrote:Why bother making Nexuiz similar to Warsow, when Warsow already fills that niche?

Why bother making an FPS if there are so many FPS' out there already?
The dash button is a nice feature, and could really be useful. It does NOT make Nexuiz a Warsow clone.

And may i ask what is this so called "Dash Button"? Can you roughly explain, in short simple terms, what it does and how it works?

4m wrote:And may i ask what is this so called "Dash Button"? Can you roughly explain, in short simple terms, what it does and how it works?

As far as I've seen it (only played it for a short time), it's an alternate way to "jump". You can jump off a wall when you're in mid air next to a wall. Or from the ground you do a jump similar to UT's dodge-jumps iirc?

whatever, watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qzsbg9ZNsaA
or youtube search for other dash jump videos in warsow

Blµb wrote:

TVR wrote:

Xeno The Blind wrote:The other idea, while we're on movement... I'd like to see the Warsow special movement key in Nexuiz (maybe tweaked to suit Nexuiz instead of a direct clone, but wall jumps and dashes would be amazing).

This is Nexuiz, with the sole purpose of being Nexuiz, a simple, fast, intense shooter - Warsow exists for the purpose of being Warsow.

I hate simple

One of the most important free licensing clauses is for anyone to possess the right to fork the project at their discretion.

Blµb wrote:

TVR wrote:Why bother making Nexuiz similar to Warsow, when Warsow already fills that niche?

Why bother making an FPS if there are so many FPS' out there already?
The dash button is a nice feature, and could really be useful. It does NOT make Nexuiz a Warsow clone.

Every FPS is unique, whether it be separated by gameplay, graphics, audio, level design, licensing, or any combination thereof.

Not only would copying a key feature of Warsow make Nexuiz less unique, but it would also violate both the Unix software toolbox philosophy, and the founding principles of Nexuiz.

As Warsow is also FOSS, Nexuiz & Warsow should remain distinct, as anyone could download & play both games at their discretion, possibly concurrently.

I agree with Xeno. Nexuiz would benefit immensely from a dodging ala-UT. In UT, you can dodge to avoid attacks (hit strafe 2x in succession), and you can also dodge off walls (basically a wall jump).

We would need new animations though, for those actions.

TVR wrote:Every FPS is unique, whether it be separated by gameplay, graphics, audio, level design, licensing, or any combination thereof.

Not only would copying a key feature of Warsow make Nexuiz less unique, but it would also violate both the Unix software toolbox philosophy, and the founding principles of Nexuiz.

As Warsow is also FOSS, Nexuiz & Warsow should remain distinct, as anyone could download & play both games at their discretion, possibly concurrently.

Oh ffs, you begin by saying that every FPS is (inherently) unique, then you argue that adopting a feature would make it less unique (please don't reply with a tangential remark about varying degrees of uniqueness).

The logic of your last statement is flawed. It's equivalent to saying that you should never eat a ham and cheese sandwich because if you want ham, then you should eat a ham sandwich and if you want cheese, then you should eat a cheese sandwich. The FOSS comment is also silly. Look at the development of KDE and GNOME and how much they've been inspired by each other and by Windows (sorry Linux fanboys ). Are you going to say that they're both exactly the same now? Have they both betrayed some mystical principle of open source?

*prepares to roll eyes*

Yeah, it's pretty ridiculous to say that taking one element from a game will make Nexuiz just like that game. That is completely ignoring all of the other variables involved.

I think all games of the same genre borrow from each other and are influenced by each other. The fun thing about an open source project is that we could possibly incorporate new features relatively quickly and make those features configurable so that the community has more choice. If the new changes are popular, then you'll see them on more servers.

Maybe the hook trail could be a little more visible, kinda fatter, easier to shoot at. Easier targeting on the hook itself might reduce Tarzan-like gameplay.
And imho it could use some optical revamping. Make it look like a rope or a chain or something.

Xeno The Blind, it seems as if you have either ignored, or were unable to comprehend my eariler reply direct towards you, and unable to comprehend my simplification for Blµb as well.

I will now reduce the concept further to it's composite logic:

The Unix philosophy is essentially, do one thing, do it well, as proven by the following comparison.

Let 'A' = Simple, old-school like deathmatch [Nexuiz]
Let 'B' = Gameplay focusing on: 'The art of [sic] Trix' [Warsow]

There exist 7 possible combinations of various attitudes towards the two features, I shall assign a person to each combination:
Person 1: Like A, Neutral B
Person 2: Like A, Dislike B
Person 3: Like B, Neutral A
Person 4: Like B, Dislike A
Person 5: Like A, Like B

[Person 6 & 7 have been removed, they have no reason to play either game]

They shall be weighted like so: happy = 1, neutral = 0, unhappy = -1

Assuming one will not play a game with a disliked feature....

If Nexuiz & Warsow were to remain distinct [Nexuiz = A, Warsow = B]
Person 1 would be happy playing Nexuiz [+1]
Person 2 would be happy playing Nexuiz [+1]
Person 3 would be happy playing Warsow [+1]
Person 4 would be happy playing Warsow [+1]
Perons 5 would be happy playing Nexuiz or Warsow [+1]

5/5 people are happy playing something.

Everyone is happy playing either Nexuiz or Warsow.

Sums to [1+1+1+1+1] 5 based on the weighted scale.

If Nexuiz were to copy a KEY FEATURE OF WARSOW [Nexuiz = 1/2A+1/2B, Warsow = B]
Person 1 would be half as happy playing Nexuiz, neutral to Warsow features [+.5, +0 averages to +.25]
Person 2 would be unhappy playing Nexuiz or Warsow [-1]
Person 3 would be happy playing Warsow [+1]
Person 4 would be happy playing Warsow [+1]
Person 5 would be happy playing Nexuiz or Warsow [+1]

3/5 people are happy playing something, 1/5 is a quarter as happy, 1/7 are unhappy.

Two people are not as happy as they could be, in comparison to above.

Sums to [.25-1+1+1+1] 2.25 based on the weighted scale. Less than half of if Nexuiz & Warsow were to remain distinct.

It does not matter if the ratio of certain attitude combinations is not equal, as in the comparison - If Nexuiz were to copy the key feature of Warsow, more people will not be happy.

I disagree with TVR. Nexuiz should not adopt the special movement button.
Perhaps Nexuiz Pro should adopt it though; Nexuiz Pro is not yet distinct enough to have gained popularity.

The problem is... a special movement button would be a bad idea for a "classic" shooter like Nexuiz - it indeed would make it too much w*rs*w-like.

Doing it the way UT did - with double-tapping - was an incredibly stupid idea of the guys who made UT. Double-tapping a strafe key happens quite often accidentally, when you walk sideways and then decide to go "a step further". And threw me (and lots of others) off AS-HiSpeed (the train map) very often.

Only way I could agree with is two extra keys to "jump left" and "jump right" - but that would be two more keys to bind for everyone to stay competitive, and would take away space for important weapon binds.

TVR wrote:Xeno The Blind, it seems as if you have either ignored, or were unable to comprehend my eariler reply direct towards you, and unable to comprehend my simplification for Blµb as well.

Forgive me for I am of limited cognitive capacity and was unable to follow the the profoundly intricate logic of your reasoning. I appreciate your taking the time out of your day to simplify such things to a degree that even I may understand.

TVR wrote:I will now reduce the concept further to it's composite logic:

Please do. I feel confident that your painstaking delineations shall clarify this matter to a point of undeniable perspicuity.

TVR wrote:The Unix philosophy is essentially, do one thing, do it well, as proven by the following comparison.

I'm not even going to reply sarcastically to this. What follows this statement has nothing to do with it nor the Unix philosophy (also, one might wish to distinguish Unix and Linux philosophies, but that's a separate discussion). Your constant striving to appear logical is fatally undermined by your inability to apply the laws of logic in anything more than a sophistic manner, often hoping that your use of SAT vocabulary will somehow obscure the flaws of your reasoning. Whether you are aware of this limitation or not is a matter as of yet unclear. My attitude towards you here is a direct response to your very abrasive posting style, which itself is an indication of general social ineptitude and a lack of understanding of "netiquette". That said, the adoption of this attitude is limited to the forum and only for the duration of your continued insistence of maintaining such undesirable mannerisms.

TVR wrote:Let 'A' = Simple, old-school like deathmatch [Nexuiz]
Let 'B' = Gameplay focusing on: 'The art of [sic] Trix' [Warsow]

Perhaps you're not aware of it, but there is a growing number of players who focus primarily on breaking flag capture records. The movement techniques that they use are closer to the 'B' end of the spectrum and as such Nexuiz, despite it's official labelling as simple and old-school, is not such.

TVR wrote:There exist 7 possible combinations of various attitudes towards the two features, I shall assign a person to each combination:
Person 1: Like A, Neutral B
Person 2: Like A, Dislike B
Person 3: Like B, Neutral A
Person 4: Like B, Dislike A
Person 5: Like A, Like B
Person 6: Neutral A, Neutral B
Person 7: Dislike A, Dislike B

Person 8: Neutral A, Dislike B
Person 9: Neutral B, Dislike A
If you're going to include person 7, who is completely irrelevant to any discussion on the matter, you should opt for completeness.

TVR wrote:They shall be weighted like so: happy = 1, neutral = 0, unhappy = -1

Slow down, let me get a calculator.

TVR wrote:If Nexuiz & Warsow were to remain distinct [Nexuiz = A, Warsow = B]
Person 1 would be happy playing Nexuiz [+1]
Person 2 would be happy playing Nexuiz [+1]
Person 3 would be happy playing Warsow [+1]
Person 4 would be happy playing Warsow [+1]
Perons 5 would be happy playing Nexuiz or Warsow [+1]
Person 6 would be neutral playing Nexuiz or Warsow [+0]
Person 7 would be unhappy playing Nexuiz or Warsow [-1]

Intriguing.

TVR wrote:5/7 people are happy playing something, 1/7 is neutral, 1/7 is unhappy

You can please some of the people all of the time, all of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time?

TVR wrote:Number of people happy playing something exceeds both 50%, and the number of people not happy.

Eureka! We must publish this in a journal... surely you can earn an Erdos number now!

TVR wrote:Sums to [1+1+1+1+1+0-1] 4 based on the weighted scale.

*goes through it on the calculator*
yep

TVR wrote:If Nexuiz were to copy a KEY FEATURE OF WARSOW [Nexuiz = 1/2A+1/2B, Warsow = B]
Person 1 would be half as happy playing Nexuiz, neutral to Warsow features [+.5, +0 averages to +.25]
Person 2 would be unhappy playing Nexuiz or Warsow [-1]
Person 3 would be happy playing Warsow [+1]
Person 4 would be happy playing Warsow [+1]
Person 5 would be happy playing Nexuiz or Warsow [+1]
Person 6 would be neutral playing Nexuiz or Warsow [+0]
Person 7 would be unhappy playing Nexuiz or Warsow [-1]

FAIL
If you want to include averages, you should have done it in your calculation above, which would have led to Person 1 having a score of 0.5 rather than 1, but that would make little sense to this reasoning as a person who likes one game is going to play that, so there is no reason to average. In the immediately preceding calculation, Person 1 obtains a rating of 0.5 as he still likes the A/2 aspect of Nexuiz and is neutral to the B/2 aspect. Person 2, using your [+1,0,-1] system, would like the A/2 aspect (+1/2) but dislike the B/2 aspect (-1/2), thus obtaining a happiness rating of 0. Person 3 would still like the B aspect of Warsow (+1), but if you want to average, you have to consider that he would now also like the B/2 aspect of Nexuiz. That applies to Person 4, who would become neutral towards Nexuiz (which affects the score if you want to average, for whatever reason).

TVR wrote:3/7 people are happy playing something, 1/7 is a quarter as happy, 1/7 are neutral, 2/7 are unhappy.

Number of people happy playing something is below both 50%, and the number of people who are not happy.

Sums to [.25-1+1+1+1+0-1] 1.25 based on the weighted scale. Less than half of if Nexuiz & Warsow were to remain distinct.

In light of the flawed logic employed above, this is no longer valid. I will let you submit a revision before I review your conclusion in depth as it is not my job to salvage whatever nuggets of logic that somehow found their way in there. Bye bye Erdos number.

TVR wrote:It does not matter if the ratio of certain attitude combinations is not equal, as in the comparison - If Nexuiz were to copy the key feature of Warsow, more people will not be happy.

It entirely depends on the attitude ratios. How can you even make such a claim? Did you not bother to scroll up and reread what you wrote?

Going beyond that, you have no real basis for such a statement. The bullshit that you spewed out above didn't prove anything other than your proficiency in the arts of sophistic arguing. You make the assumption that the incorporation of a movement feature inspired by Warsow would render Nexuiz in large part a Warsow clone. I highly disagree, but that's a subjective matter. You don't see any way in which such a feature might be adapted to Nexuiz to better suit Nexuiz's style without fundamentally changing it. You appear to adopt a highly conservative view which by extension would lead to the opposition of new features, new game modes, etc.

All in all, it was put forward as a suggestion. If enough people like it, it may be worth pursuing. Despite your numerical revelations above, there is a chance that a majority of the Nexuiz community would appreciate such a feature and guide its adoption in a way that suits Nexuiz. Many open source projects take their direction from the community around them. Should Nexuiz adopt such a feature, you could, as you stated above, just fork off.





And to think that I almost didn't bother to read your post.



*edited to correct typos*

I personally dislike the dash button idea.
Nexuiz is not unrel, and not warsow.
Nexuiz is Nexuiz. We have the laser, and we have bunnyhops, and high air control.
I love the game becouse it's more quake in movement. Please, keep it as it is.
Simple, and brutally deadly fast.