Following up on this mess, I've decided to start a thread concerning the scapegoat of the month, the Nexuiz Ninjaz. A community I started ~1 year ago to help players old and new push the limits, share ideas and build upon the game we love.

Recently, we've been getting a lot of sour energy in our direction. People are making accusations based on assumptions and misinformation. I've started this thread to help clear the air and stop the major derailment of the thread I've linked above.

Everyone seems to be focusing on the details of here and now, rather than trying to understand where Nexuiz was a year ago and why the ninjaz exist. Do yourself a favor and catch up on some history before you try and tell me what is and what isn't. Rather than celebrating our differences and working together on things we do agree on, people have been taking their frustrations out on the ninjaz for reasons unknown to me.

I find it ridiculous that I even need to justify our existence but I'd prefer this over a few uninformed individuals spreading misinformation about a community who's pure goal is to improve a game we love. Not everyone sees the game as we do or want to play it like we do. We respect that, which is why we have our own community.

The ninjaz are the only community that actively writes articles relating to the game. Nexuiz.com has what... 3 posts right now? Maybe 20 in the forum? We're building a story around this community and around this game but you're not taking the time to read or understand it, just attack it based on your assumptions. I dunno... maybe you guys think warsownews.net is a bad idea too.

The ninjaz have made many contributions, providing applications and services many players use on a daily basis. The community has brought together players new and old, combining our forces to make this place better.

The ninjaz forum software is a lot more powerful than this and it needs to be for future growth. Not that I'd even have the clearance to do this, but converting this board to that software would be a lot of work. Something a lot of you can easily point your fingers around and say "do this, do that" but you don't consider the hardships of application management and software development let alone project management. Even if this were to happen, then I'm sure people would complain that there are too many players trying to change the game.

A lot of the things we do aren't even seen by most. We do a lot of work behind the scenes, working with other developers on IRC. There are tools out there only the inner circle has access to, I'd like to some day make available to all but these kinds of attitudes don't provide a comforting environment.

"Hey -z- good job with that application but you didn't do this that or the other thing, so it sucks, dumbass."


The ninjaz provide an open-minded atmosphere that's just not available here. The only reason the idea of a split exists is because people are willing to see it that way. I don't know any ninjaz off the top of my head that don't browse these forums. True ninjaz never felt this way as Dokujisan, an esteemed Nexuiz veteran and ninja has expressed in the other thread. We don't let that discourage our commitment to this forum but apparently some of you are trying to make that so.


Instead of understanding who we are and how we help, we've been marked as a negative influence by those who feel... I don't know what they feel, upset? However, as those who've followed history know, unity was one of our goals while creating the community. The high ranking results for anything Nexuiz are no mistake. Before the ninjaz, it was quite hard to find anything related to Nexuiz. As the guy that designed the nexuiz.com website, I can tell you this was no accident (7th).

For the record, the Ninjaz aren't just about Nexuiz. It's about how we approach problem solving. How we understand problems, how we go about creating solutions. As the slogan says, we are practicing the ninja arts [of Nexuiz]. These morals we (true ninjaz) live by. I wish people could see this. Games aren't "just games", they display how we think. It's no surprise to me that the ninjaz who play similar to the style I prefer also work in similar fields.

Please stop shitting on us.

I find this dumb 80% of the people reply saying, oh, we don't want the community to split yet they keep pushing this shit fight on. I've been a member here for over a year now, and a member of this great game for 2 years and 11 months, and this is the first thing closest to a community split I have ever seen.

People keep "bullying" [-z-] for his efforts, now, some may say they're constuctive critism... I'm 50/50, some of them do sound like they're just trying to make life hard.

[-z-] keeps putting petrol on the fire by creating posts like these, and/or repling to posts that are insulting him and the others are creating replys that really aren't needed.
Both parties are fueling this fight, it really should stop.

Why doesn't everyone just stop... You all talk about, we just want the community to go forward, well, the forums having bitch fights are mostlikely going to scar the community. If I was a new user and I saw these posts on nn or the at forums, I'd not register, I wouldn't want to get involved in these shit fights...

How is it supposed to look when someone googles nexuiz and they find a link to these posts where the main people of nexuiz are bitching?

Give it a break.

I've been playing Nexuiz since around 2.3(I've had an account here for a while, but not a very productive one) , and man, I would like this to stop also, but what I would really hate is for this debate not to have a clear winner. -z- is not 'putting petrol on the fire', he is defending himself and everything he has worked for. What's really turning this wheel is a lot of the members of AT fighting back and providing some pretty useless excuses for -z-'s defense, imo.

Nexuiz Ninjaz is an awesome site where beginners can come and learn tricks and tips about Nexuiz! Have you seen Kyoman, the videos? It's got some useful videos in there! And I didn't create the dojo for no reason. Its purpose is to TEACH, to HELP new people learn aspects of Nexuiz with or without the help of a teacher. It's still in production! And the forum is filled with great advice for beginners to advanced players. You can't really say many bad things about the Ninjaz as a whole.

Nexuiz Ninjaz now also hosts OUNS, the site for all beginners.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is this: -z- has worked very hard to get where he is, and he's done it without a profit. He's helped this community so much in so many ways, little and small, and spitting all over what he has done isn't going to make this any better.

My problem is that [-z-] tends to insult people who don't share his ideas.

And sometimes it would be good if [-z-] could learn to look at ideas from another perspective.

I for example am a total noob when it comes to aiming, with all that belongs to it. I simply can't move the mouse smoothly enough to get a good enough hit rate with the Nex, or to do QW-style bunnyhopping in Nexuiz "reliably". This is also why I never beat the second part of test99 (the jump over the slime).

Given that, I also can't move as fast as e.g. jlue or Red Dragon can (see my signature for race records). No amount of watching them how they move actually helps me, as I have pinpointed my flaws to moving the mouse smoothly enough to gain speed fast. In slow motion of a demo recorded by me, you can easily see that I move the mouse a bit, then stop, then move it a bit again, then stop, etc. - but not smoothly. Neither can I hold a soldering iron with my hand well - I simply can't hold it so that it's fixed and won't move.

On the other hand, I understand the game very well theoretically. None of [-z-]'s posting about desertcastles was new to me, all the tricks mentioned in there were obvious to me. Yet still I wouldn't say it was a bad idea to post them - it was a very good one, for the people who were otherwise frustrated with that map.

However, none of this theory can fix my shortcomings in aiming or moving. It sure can compensate a little, e.g. knowing the other weapons means I don't desperately try to hit with the Nex all the time, but rather prefer weapons that don't need such exact aim... but if I am in a weak team, and playing against really strong people, and this may be a 4vs4 with nobody really good in my team, and two really good players in the other team, it does not "take effort" to fail capturing four times. Especially if the enemy isn't stupid, and waits for me to take the flag before he shoots me down (which is rewarded for him through the scoring system, but that's a different story and a thing I have no idea how to fix). Just because I cannot beat a team with, e.g., alpha and jlue, it doesn't mean I am stupid. I want [-z-] and two noobs to challenge alpha, jlue, and Red Dragon, to know what it is like to be pwned by speedrunners.

When I explained this situation to [-z-], all I got back was "you obviously lack in theory, or you would not fail capturing that much". Of course without an explanation on WHAT I am doing wrong, just "you don't know the theory". Also, he claims that without having even specced me in such a match. So this all is nothing but insults. Negativity, as [-z-] would call it.

And sorry, to the other NNs. [-z-] is the leader of NN, and his behaviour towards me and others does influence our opinion against NN. He is representative for NN, after all. Not every NN behaves in [-z-]'s arrogant ways - however, [-z-], being the leader of the community and accepted highest ninja, should certainly also behave that way, and provide a good example, instead of "teaching" his fellow ninjnas how to be hostile and arrogant towards others.

And now he complains at what he's getting back for his behaviour...

"Not everyone sees the game as we do or want to play it like we do. We respect that, which is why we have our own community."

LOL.

Then why are you trying to impose your annoying and discriminating ideas into the main Nexuiz code base? Make a ninja mod, if you insist. If it turns out to be generally useful, it can still enter the main code base from there.

I am not your code slave. As simple as that. I want to develop a game _I_ can enjoy too - not a game that's discriminating against myself.

jlue or Red Dragon spent days to get it working (hopping, finding CORRECT laserjumping angle). Like you spent hours for developing the game, they spent hours for training. For example, I can't laserjump correctly (whole movement is wrong) and they would own me any day. Another thing, you can't just come first time to FPS and be an aimbot. With constant practice, you get the no-zoom aim or skill called "reflexive shot". This is the thing, when you don't need to check to be sure if crosshair is really on the target and you press the mouse button without thinking. If somebody understands it differently, please correct me. Everything needs time (and we live so short). Some might say, yeah, but previous day I saw a guy, which I have never seen before and he was a freaking unstoppable. But many forget that people come and leave. Some people I've played 2 years ago were gone, yet some of older ones came back (even just for only 3 matches). Some might be seasoned UT(version), Q(version) players (and I know who ), so this doesn't mean they haven't put sweat into learning.
That's why I'm not too much against camping, because you need to learn aim somehow. The problem is that usually those campers let enemy take things inside your base (100 armor, health, strength or take all weapons by themselves and die) or campers amount gets too huge and game can't be played like it was meant.

Sure, you are right with this. I do not spend that much time playing, and neither do I want to.

I certainly can't blame jlue or Red Dragon for being as fast as they are. No, I actually support them, and want to spread their knowledge (by making youtube videos of how to do the race maps fast). However, it isn't just knowledge what they are using, but also actual skill.

However, what I do not want are changes to the game that makes playing against these guys even more frustrating. It's hard enough to hit them when defending, as you usually only have a single chance till they're gone. In such a situation, the game is very frustrating - and the only thing that can be fun is taking their flag, so they cannot capture and first have to hunt you down for direct confrontation. You know, losing against an enemy you see is one thing - losing against an enemy you cannot even see or do anything about is highly frustrating.

And as for camping - it's a lame tactics, and not worth rewarding. But it also is not required to punish it. It shouldn't gain too many points, but that's all.

Cause you haven't seen good nexers. I can ask jlue to give some who he played against or maybe red dragon will come here and share his. Camping is useful only when beginning to play. Later you can just play with nex all the time (attacking, defending, roaming, etc) without standing in one place.

If someone is a very good nexer, he'll stack up points anyway, even if it's just mere frags. And having 100 frags in a 20 minutes game is some honor too, even if it is not in the "score" column.

And sure, a good nexer can beat jlue often when attacking. But, not many are good nexers...

Not so many are GOOD attackers either. Because GOOD people come and play at public (sometimes) and casual camper can't stop them it doesn't mean game is wrong, but the people are lacking skill in comparison to others. That's why morphed does not like nex, cause in good hands it is devastating, but you need time to learn to use it.

I fully agree to that. But this has nothing to do with the topic.

I just say we shouldn't make changes that will make the game for the less skilled players MORE frustrating... not that we should remove the Nex or the Laser

Anyway, I think we shouldn't be derailing a topic that is meant to stop the derailing of another topic...

It has. Less frustrating for first-comers will make game SOMETIMES less balanced for better players. Nexuiz fixes the problem of rail, making people to move faster. Now we are discussing SLOWING DOWN people when whole nexuiz idea was actually fast movement and not camping. Later we discuss protection bubble which also makes game more prone to camping. Instead of learning to move (attack) and aim (defend) like it is really possible, people are slowed and equiped with spam weapons (and not those which require prediction, e.g. lightning in quake). In public ctf people are learning techniques because there is no decent place to learn anywhere else. Public CTF becomes insanely good when only old nexuiz school players come. There is no need to tell you defend, me attacks. Everyone knows what to do in particular situation (whether to attack, defend or support) and I appreciate those moments alot (best part of nexuiz ever forever).

Another thing, I was fragged (and sometimes taught) by Red Dragon 1000 times or smth while starting to play, yet I haven't quit because of that.

This whole thread started people hurt each other ambitions, points of views, insulted each other and etc... So this thread should be forgotten because it destroys Nexuiz game like netquake vs quakeworld wars did. There are much more work to be done, until nexuiz could be forked .

Alien, plz stop this derailing before i have to spank you.

Personally I don't have any harsh feelings towards the NN subcommunity at all. However, I often feel provoked by the (imo) clumsy way [-z-] expresses himself, but of course i don't hold this against the rest of NN

The ninjaz are the only community that actively writes articles relating to the game. Nexuiz.com has what... 3 posts right now? Maybe 20 in the forum? We're building a story around this community and around this game but you're not taking the time to read or understand it, just attack it based on your assumptions. I dunno... maybe you guys think warsownews.net is a bad idea too.

Stuff like this makes me pissed off. Arrogant patronizing bullshit in my eyes. Nexuiz was alive long before you found it and if / when you leave, it will still be. take a step back and get some perspective on how your coming off. if you want ppl to treat you with respect, you have to do the same for them. Barking like a chiwawa or wiggling some kinda e-penis around as soon as threes a difference in opinions is a sure-fire way to kill any chases of a constructive dialogue.

That said, kudos for all the nice tools NN provided for Nexuiz.

tZork wrote:Alien, plz stop this derailing before i have to spank you.

me has super shotgun, you not

From serious point of view, this thread is useless anyway (accusations of each other shouldn't have started in the first place).

Basically, there is multiple views on the game:

• The "pros": players of very high skill, who need the game to provide more depth, so even they can still improve
• The "average player": players of medium skill, who want to enjoy the game, and be able to learn from the "pros"
• The "newbies": players who are new to the game, or don't have enough time to rise to a higher level

None of these must be forgotten when thinking about how to change the game. [-z-]'s suggestion totally ignores the demand the "newbies" and "average players" have, and only fulfills the demands of the "pros".

What NN need most is an "advocatus noobi", someone who represents the view of new players.

Also, all this wouldn't have gone so emotional againt NN, had it not been [-z-], the "master" of NN, doing these personal attacks. If any lesser NN member would have done the same, it wouldn't have "reflected" that badly on NN. But [-z-] simply represents NN...

divVerent, the pure goal of my suggested CTF system was to make the game LESS frustrating for new players by helping them identify problems with their tactics. I think the game tell you you're messing up is better than being lasered around by your teammates or yelled at by your teammates (which by the way is the harsh way I learned some things). This attitude is unfortunately infective and after I had learned that little bit, I was for a short while acting in the same manner. My moment of Nexuiz enlightenment was then creating the ninjaz. A website that would aid in teaching players the things they couldn't learn elsewhere.

I'm not forcing you to code anything. I'm theorizing and explaining my reasoning and getting attack by those who fail to see my overall goal in the system. You yourself have agreed it's getting attacked on the wrong points. The waste of time and energy I've admitted does give me a patronizing attitude. I'm not perfect, nor do I claim to be. As Dokujisan has noted, I'm constantly learning and trying to understand, evolving my techniques in game and in life.

I do not want hostility between us because I have always thought of this as a mutually beneficial relationship... however it's becoming clear to me you do not feel the same.

I'm not a very rich person. I make it by with freelance work I fit in between school and Nexuiz. I try and contribute through the ways I've detailed above. I do not say these things to show how "awesome I am". I say these things to show you what a positive influence the ninjaz have been and how our goal is to help. If I could help Nexuiz out more financially, I would, and believe me you, I do plan on doing more so when I do get a steady job but as it stands, I'm spending enough to just keep Nexuiz Ninjaz running. Too me though, it's a necessary cost to keep learning under one of the most committed, selfless person I've come across in the open-source community, you divVerent.

It flips my mind around to have such lengthy discussions on IRC where I feel we've made progress and come to terms with our differences in ideas about the system only to find you publicly shitting on the Ninjaz. I'd like to write more about the person I've pinned as the single most amazing developer in this nitch of the internet but it's going to take a lot to muster up the strength to overcome your obvious negative feelings towards my community.

I'm not asking you to change the game to something you don't want. I'm asking you to understand it from my perspective. I present to you as professional as I currently know possible, my ideas, theories and supporting evidence. Something many others would never consider giving you the respect to do.


tZork, I'm not trying to come off as arrogant or patronizing but I do feel I need to explain who the ninjaz are in the whole scheme of things. I understand that Nexuiz existed before I was a member but I want you to understand how we've been a positive influence and we mean no disrespect.

divVerent wrote: (which is rewarded for him through the scoring system, but that's a different story and a thing I have no idea how to fix)..

This is easy, reduce the personal scores of all the team members, whose flag was taken. Will fix TVR's problem of not stopping the incoming attacker. E.g. if somebody picks my team flag, each member of my team gets -5. Return should produce less for returner's personal score (so in sum you'll get negative score if your flag was picked), that there would be no incentive in camping, but loss of flag should noticeably decrease personal score of the person who lost to compensate kamikaze picking. Everything applies to personal score only.

[-z-]: you still don't understand.

Do not make the game a dictatorship.

Make the game _recommend_ what to do, not _force_ players to do something else.

If someone doesn't want to learn, he won't anyway, but instead think the game is bad if it suddenly prevents him from doing what he usually does.

Before using severe means such as forcing someone to spectate, or even this bubble, all "nice" means have to be tried out, e.g. on-screen messages, score penalties (so players question themselves if they get negative score), announcer messages, maybe even a tutorial mode (best used as part of the singleplayer campaign, and on beginner servers).

That is all I want. Do not use force unless you REALLY have to. And I
simply believe that this time has not come yet.

That way, the same people would learn as those who do when taking your ideas as is. However, the players who will NOT learn from it won't be driven away.

And as for the Ninjaz - I have yet to see a true positive influence from the NNs that is not shadowed by negative influence in the very same matter. Writing tutorials to improve your playing performance sure is good. Behaving arrogantly towards those who don't share the same opinion is bad.

NNs, especially you, should learn not to behave in an arrogant way towards "non-Ninjaz". That's really all I want to see, and expect from you most. Being the leader of the NNs, you should really provide a good example for your community, and not let yourself down to such a low level.

And as long as you take my critique as "publicly shitting on your community", I don't think we can make any progress. I have described my points in length. You sure will disregard them again, and again insult me. But I see that coming anyway, because that simply is your arrogant attitude.

Please, learn the ability to take critique, even if it is negative. Do NOT disregard it and insult the one issuing it, but try to learn from it.

@[-z-]:
I think this thread could have been avoided in being created if you actually took a look and read the post I made. What you bring up here I already explained in that other post (here). You complain about misinformation? You don't even read my posts anymore.

But seriously guys, do we need this bullshit going on? I have to puke.
Pretty please, everybody calm down, we're all friends here. It's sure, we see things things differently, but why should we hate eachother because of that?

Games aren't "just games", they display how we think.

Huge -1 from me! This is just a game, entertainment for me. Making maps entertains me, playing them entertains me chatting with those who I play with on the forums or irc entertains me. But nothing more.
Oh wait, not true, THIS NOT A GAME FOR ME! It's the community, the friends I've gained. THAT'S what Nexuiz means for me. And that I can entertain others with my work.
And this might be the point you've actually missed in the past time -z- . For me, Nexuiz was some kinda "clipper" that connected unknown people is some way: we've loved FPS-es, open source stuff. In the beginning, there were no selfishness at all. No n00bs, no pr0s, nobody was more or less. Some of us actually started to develop the game, the others stayed only to play it. But I don't have any bad feelings for those, who only play the game, and don't give anything. Some of us left the game in the meantime, new ones have come. But nowadays, something has changed: it's the _respect_ that's missing.
I share the same opinion of tZork's, a very big +1 on that. Every word. On your self-glorification... and all your help to us.
I think the main problem here is, that some NN has gained some "elitist" view. And from oldies, that's not tolerated. That could be the main problem here, that should be changed some way. I don't know how to express myself better, sorry, I'm not native english
[-z-], I respect you, and all the work you've done for the game and the community, and I can say a big: THANK YOU. But pretty please mate, think about what I've told you here.

+1 for C.Brutail

Personally I, too, greatly appreciate the work [-z-] or the NN community has done for Nexuiz and have been pointing out www.nexuizninjaz.com to new/unexperienced players along with esteel's thread several times.

But I also have a strong aversion against elitist thinking.

Enuff said (at least from me). Please let this thread rest in peace.



Oh darn, I posted.

divVerent wrote:Basically, there is multiple views on the game:

• The "pros": players of very high skill, who need the game to provide more depth, so even they can still improve
• The "average player": players of medium skill, who want to enjoy the game, and be able to learn from the "pros"
• The "newbies": players who are new to the game, or don't have enough time to rise to a higher level

I must admit even i forgot this a bit some short time back, and i agree that everyone should be able to be catered for, thats why i always said you can't force Some of the teamplay ideas that have been mentioned onto public servers, let that go into mods or competitive stuff.

tZork said it all for me, and I request that his statements not be twisted out of context by any party.

lock this topic! whats the point of "you are an ass" , "your ideas suck" ?
for ideas theres the CTF topic. we don't need "Hate topics"

This is a heated discussion and i usually keep out of such things, but i hope my words will put some of you back on track:

Look, i don't know what this is all really about*, but it takes up your time and energy and you should weigh the gains and losses. Critique should put your awareness on your weaknesses.

*(seems like [-z-] against the community - or rather the community against [-z-], the misconceptions and aggressions originating from a different source)