I just wanted to add that I think changing the weapon switching time (which is what this is effectively about) is a bad idea.

I agree with the previous posts that Nexuiz' appeal is its fast-paced action. I understand the devs who want to push for more balance, but I think there's a real risk to go overboard following statistics on weapon usage etc. Nexuiz is not a tactical game and although it could be, it would no longer be the same game if you made it one. That doesn't mean that it should be allowed to become completely FFA and some of the efforts to prevent that are appreciated, but anything that changes the core nature of the game is a bad idea. In this case, weapon combos are definitely a core feature of the game. I say this as someone who's not very good at them and who gets killed often enough by those who are. I accept that and I don't want the devs to nerf good players just so I can live a little longer in the game.

In the case that this was just a coincidental change that came along with the animation due to artistic priorities, then it should definitely be changed back to 0.3 seconds. If it's a dev decision to intentionally affect gameplay, then I think it's fair to say that it's underhanded to commit such a major change without any discussion on the forum, especially as close to a release as we allegedly are.

Also, a quick thought on weapon balance in general... I doubt there is a holy grail that will enable all the weapons to be somehow equal. Sometimes the attempts to balance them feel like someone carving a figure out of wood without ever being satisfied, so he just keeps whittling the wood down to a nothing. Again, I and I'm sure many others truly appreciate the devs' efforts and I understand that this is a considerable contribution of your free time, but please don't take criticism of your decisions on certain matters personally. I know that you have to deal with a lot of negative reactions that could be voiced more eloquently or given more thought before being expressed, but many of the objections arise because the players care about the state and direction of the game itself and want to preserve the parts of it which make it enjoyable.

That was very well said! +1 for Xeno


Though I personally feel I could live with the 0.5 sec animtime, if this is being agreed upon

Xeno wrote:In the case that this was just a coincidental change that came along with the animation due to artistic priorities, then it should definitely be changed back to 0.3 seconds. If it's a dev decision to intentionally affect gameplay, then I think it's fair to say that it's underhanded to commit such a major change without any discussion on the forum, especially as close to a release as we allegedly are.

LOL

Discussing such stuff on the forum is entirely pointless. I've totally given up on that part. Only leads to long discussions where each person tells the other that they're complete idiots, and that their own opinion is the only one that counts. I won't do ANY such polls again until both [-z-] and TVR are banned (and IIRC alpha and ai did that too, so maybe they should get banned too before starting such a poll).

It was partially intentionally, BTW. morphed wanted a longer animation, I told him "that will mean combos will have to wait longer", he thinks "who cares, nex is overpowered".

divVerent wrote:(and IIRC alpha and ai did that too, so maybe they should get banned too before starting such a poll)

I agree upon this. Ban me, it's for the greater good right? I'm not MikeeUSA, I won't come back.

I doubt you will be banned but i guess its worth pointing out that some people have bad discussion skills and EVERYONE should try to improve that skill for himself..

divVerent wrote:LOL

Discussing such stuff on the forum is entirely pointless. I've totally given up on that part. Only leads to long discussions where each person tells the other that they're complete idiots, and that their own opinion is the only one that counts. I won't do ANY such polls again until both [-z-] and TVR are banned (and IIRC alpha and ai did that too, so maybe they should get banned too before starting such a poll).

It was partially intentionally, BTW. morphed wanted a longer animation, I told him "that will mean combos will have to wait longer", he thinks "who cares, nex is overpowered".

Basically I consider THIS THREAD a discussion, one that went smoothly basically. As did the antilagged bullets dicussion. No polls, just discussions.

This is getting interesting. Should we discuss whether this discussion is a proper discussion? I'd say we should define the necessary terms before.



In case anybody still cares about the animtime - how can we proceed? Should we make a new, shorter animation or could morphed maybe help there, as he has the source files for the animation (if I got that right)?

Well morphed commited a new animation taking 0.7s and its back at the old config time 0.3s and still looks ok (for me)

That's good news! Thanks to morphed!

divVerent wrote:LOL

Discussing such stuff on the forum is entirely pointless. I've totally given up on that part. Only leads to long discussions where each person tells the other that they're complete idiots, and that their own opinion is the only one that counts. I won't do ANY such polls again until both [-z-] and TVR are banned (and IIRC alpha and ai did that too, so maybe they should get banned too before starting such a poll).

It was partially intentionally, BTW. morphed wanted a longer animation, I told him "that will mean combos will have to wait longer", he thinks "who cares, nex is overpowered".

Well, not mentioning such changes because a few people on the forum can't behave just doesn't make a great argument.

Also, letting a single person decide to change a core aspect of gameplay because he thinks a weapon is overpowered also seems like a bad idea. Don't worry, you don't have to tell me that if I don't like it I can fork off and make my own game.

Anyway, if it's been changed back to the original time, then thanks for listening to the feedback, Morphed.

We should go to compromise and make it 0.5 so it would work a bit for both sides. What's so bad in it?

Alien wrote:We should go to compromise and make it 0.5 so it would work a bit for both sides. What's so bad in it?

Why? Why even change it? I've been playing Nexuiz heavily for over a year and I've not once ever heard anyone mention animtime. Not once. To my knowledge it's not an issue, and I'm confident I speak for near everyone who plays regularly that combos are a major part of this game, and the 0.3 time does not need to be changed. I've not heard one valid argument on why it should be any higher.

Does it really have to be drawn out this much? I propose to leave it at 0.3 as it has been and as everyone is used to. It was clear how IRC exploded about this issue that we just need to bury it, lock this thread, and move on.

Xeno wrote:Well, not mentioning such changes because a few people on the forum can't behave just doesn't make a great argument.

These "a few" people use manipulative talk to coerce the developers into doing stuff that's not even good for the game. So the "general opinion" you then see in the thread isn't what people REALLY think, but what they were MADE to believe by the manipulators. In the end, a single person decides too.

See CTF spawn shield.

The only VIABLE alternative would be posting about it, but not listening to comments. But that'd defeat the purpose too.

Also, letting a single person decide to change a core aspect of gameplay because he thinks a weapon is overpowered also seems like a bad idea. Don't worry, you don't have to tell me that if I don't like it I can fork off and make my own game.

Anyway, if it's been changed back to the original time, then thanks for listening to the feedback, Morphed.

morphed didn't listen, and even made a new anim for 0.7s. I simply refused to merge that into the branch for releases. The issue is still open.

It's an honor being called a manipulator, no really it is.

Except that I wasn't referring to you

divVerent wrote:These "a few" people use manipulative talk to coerce the developers into doing stuff that's not even good for the game. So the "general opinion" you then see in the thread isn't what people REALLY think, but what they were MADE to believe by the manipulators. In the end, a single person decides too.

Democracy in action... making people want what you want, a.k.a. manufacturing consent.





Back on topic:

Core gameplay features should not be changed for aesthetic purposes. Although it's probably not worth much, in my opinion one of the following should happen:

1) the animation should be shortened to 0.3 seconds to restore the original time
2) the animation should be ignored when switching and instead some internal var should be used to determine switching time

1 is probably the easier alternative to implement and I hope Morphed will do this. While his efforts are appreciated, changing gameplay so we can admire an animation or nerf nexers because someone doesn't like getting nexed is not the way to go.

If the decision to use a longer animation time really was due to a thoughtful discussion on weapon balance then maybe 0.5 would be a reasonable compromise, but it seems strange to override what players that actually use these combos want with what looks good on a stat page.

Xeno wrote:

divVerent wrote:These "a few" people use manipulative talk to coerce the developers into doing stuff that's not even good for the game. So the "general opinion" you then see in the thread isn't what people REALLY think, but what they were MADE to believe by the manipulators. In the end, a single person decides too.

Democracy in action... making people want what you want, a.k.a. manufacturing consent.

Except that people later find out - that is, when it is done - that it is NOT what they actually want, and they were simply overwhelmed by that guy's "better arguments".

im a person that believe in the power of respectfull discussions. So now im getting curious in knowing what would be the advantages of having a longer switching time for the nex. I guess the peoples that want that changes have good reasons for it. i cant seem to see it by myself. can someone exlain what they are ? because for the moment all i see is the disadvantage of it about the combos.

heres what i understand , but im not sure if that is the intent of it or just the result and the intent is different.

1- Allowing longer animation (what animation, the recoil movement of the gun ?)
2- make the combos impossible to start with a nex shot, or impossible to use a nex shot im the middle of it. using it a the end is still possible.

One of the main reasons is to make the Nex less powerful, not having it as an all-round gun. I definitely would want 0.5, 0.6 or 0.7. Minimum 0.5.

in what occasions do u find it too strong, ctf or 1v1 ? the reason im aksing this is because i though that the camping rifle was meant to replace it on some maps that are very open, like facing world and alike.

Both ctf and 1on1. The reason is that people prefer only using Nex, even in close combat when another weapon would fit better. If you're skilled with the Nex you almost don't need any other guns, just ammo. And that's what I would like to change, more variety and change of tactics.

Ok i see it now. If that is the goal, than yes it is an efficient way to make the nex user more vulnerable. Another simple solution that work without changing any setting could be controlling the nex. for 1v1, its very doable. But yeah for ctf, on maps where there is a nex in each bases, it requires some serious team work to achieve.

Thank you ai for taking time to explain to me the motivation of that setting change. Now that this as been said, i will just wait to see what decision is taken and learn to play like that if the change stays

less damage or more refire would be far better imo. breaking combo may help balance it somewhat (for ppl _only_ using the nexgun it wont matter at all), but it also irritates *allot* of ppl.

There's nothing wrong with the nex now...it's damage got reduced it's re-fire rate got reduced, just leave it as it is already.

ai wrote:Both ctf and 1on1. The reason is that people prefer only using Nex, even in close combat when another weapon would fit better. If you're skilled with the Nex you almost don't need any other guns, just ammo. And that's what I would like to change, more variety and change of tactics.

The weapon-switch delay prevents people from using combos, not the nex by itself, so I don't see how your argument applies. You seem to want people to use other weapons and yet you support something which prevents them from effectively switching weapons in close combat. This won't affect nex turrets, only people who use multiple weapons.

What it really comes down to is a dev not wanting people to be able to throw in nex shots between other weapon shots. If you have a problem with the nex, discuss reducing its refire rate again (I doubt that's a good idea, but it's better than this) but don't prevent weapon-switching. Weapon combos should be encouraged, not penalized. They're a central part of the game and an important factor in making Nexuiz a fast-paced game.

@Xeno:
Well, I've heard the arguments (those that I brought up) from other people. I'm stating what they stated. However, I'm not necessarily saying that you should not be able to switch to another weapon after firing, I do want higher refire rate for the Nex, so that you wouldn't be able to fire as fast. This in my opinion is a better option than to lower the Nex damage.
Now, I would not mind that you could switch directly after firing the Nex as long as you wouldn't be able to use the Nex again say after 0.5 or so secs. But as I understood it from the concept above is that then the animation would be 'broken/interrupted' and it would look weird, so locking weapon switching only made sense to me.

So there you have it, my opinion. Just longer refire rate for Nex, but I don't really care if they lock the weapon switching or not while the Nex reloads.

I am also for the idea to reduce the ability to spam with nex with increasing the refire time (but just a BIT) Yes, I actually said that, eventho I'm between those guys, whos gamestyle would be the most affected by that... (making a game better worth more..)
At least it encurages weapon combination, that is a nice thing.

what is the animation ?

liolak wrote:what is the animation ?

What do you mean? How long it is now? If so it's 0.7 sec I believe. But I've heard they switched the time back to 0.3 (breaking the animation).
This is what I've heard, I don't really know what has happened recently, someone else with more info hopefully will step up and correct me if I'm wrong.

no i meant what is the animation ?, is it like some parts on the gun that are moving, the gun going up and down in a recoil motion...etc