....And if there were a separate game mode, he would probably go back to making normal race maps..... Wow, some other mappers might too! Maybe they just need this kind of clarification, right?

And divVerent, if the damage is already done......why not make a different game mode for all the damage to go to, right?

Moo wrote:"Repeating the same stupid jump 100 times and being stuck there does not exactly motivate you. For this, you'd need a different style." - Div0

Or, you could do it the old-fashioned way, which always seems to work (repetition!!!).

Example: I had trouble at first with completing cyberparcour03. However, after trying atleast 10-15 times, I WAS ABLE TO COMPLETE IT!!! I FELT SOOOOOOOOOO AWESOME!!! It was the feeling of well-earned success. Failure and willpower compelled me to complete it, and I did!

cyberparcour03 is one of the ones which you actually CAN beat by repeating (as all your success depends on is whether the rotating brushes are where you need them when you come - i.e. pure luck), but what e.g. about nexrun1?

Also, I like how you say the maps are unbeatable when clearly several players have beat them.

Unbeatable to mere humans who play perhaps one hour a day. Not to the 24/7 monkeys.

Well, CTF maps had obstacles too . Plus, CTF evolved as gameplay (although it still keeps the basic concept), why can't race?

Because this is not evolving, but actually ruining the actual game type and replacing it by a single player game.

Why show a timer anyway if the map is so hard that only two people can beat it anyway?

1) I've beaten nexrun1 with the magic of repetition also.

2) 1 hour a day for 1 year can get you to the point of mad skillz

3) If it's ruining the game type, yet mappers are still making maps of this sort, then shouldn't it have its own game type?

EDIT: More people will learn to beat "CTS" maps; in the meantime these two people can optimize their runs. (timer will help them know how much they need to optimize, etc)

Moo wrote:1) I've beaten nexrun1 with the magic of repetition also.

2) 1 hour a day for 1 year can get you to the point of mad skillz

I played more than that and still lack the skill for such maps. Argument disproven.

3) If it's ruining the game type, yet mappers are still making maps of this sort, then shouldn't it have its own game type?

It deserves no game type at all. And absolutely no such maps should ever be included with Nexuiz. It only took me so long to realize cyberparcour01 is so bad because I trusted z on his judgement of the map being "easy" and had not playtested it.

Yet another proof that z is recklessly trying all means to get what he wants, and thus cannot be trusted.

Why does this discussion have similarities to the beloved parody thread "I got killed by weapon X, nerf weapon x NOW" ?

But the solution to this is sooo simple. To div's defense, I also was not able to beat the map either (I mean by going the "slow" way, as I always failed at the spiral stairs). But this could all be fixed by putting another floor at the bottom of the map with a couple of jumppads here and there.

And this is all I am asking for. There's also other solutions, e.g. trigger_push with fixed upward velocity and also added friction (so you cannot win time by abusing this trigger) bringing you slowly back on the track, or trigger_impulse, or having the bottom of the map water and add some ladders to get back to the track, or, or, or...

Basically, the map has to tolerate mistakes of the player. They sure should cost TIME, but not force the player to redo the map from the beginning.

If needed, I can also add triggers that add a penalty time.

divVerent wrote:ozorun - CTS

whats bad about ozorun?

I'm entirely with div on this. I've seen this before with Trackmania. You get retarded maps which were fun for the mapper to make as a challenge but aren't actually a close race. What kind of race only has 1% of people finishing?!? Much better to make it something that 95% of people (yes, normal people, not pros) will finish and there actually can be a race to see who gets the fastest time, based upon skill, not upon how lucky they were when they managed to laser within the 2 second angle required to trick jump over an unimaginatively placed death box.

I first thought that race would be fun however with a lot of the maps I just disconnect straight away and I can see many other people doing so. Anyone noticed that the race servers are almost always deserted? That'll be because any time you get "MassiveDeathBoxJump-r1-CTS" up, everyone who's been in a few games thinking it's alright bails out to do something else, like watch paint drying and will never return.

divVerent wrote:Unbeatable to mere humans who play perhaps one hour a day. Not to the 24/7 monkeys.

I play max 1.30 hours on nexuiz and I can beat most of the maps and I'm a monkey but not a 24/7 monkey :p

Nexuiz: CTS Edition... It has a good ring, I think we should do it.. And create a singleplayer that makes you complete the maps...

I just opened this thread the first time, as I didn't know it was attacking CyberParcour (how should I?).

To be honest, I'm quite dissapointed that this issue was talked about this way...
You simply could have sent me a PM, or a mail "hey, cp01 is too difficult, could you make an easier version?".

I didn't plan the cp maps to be included with nexuiz, but made them for me and the other race players who very much enjoy difficult race maps.
These maps are work in progress, I already made 4 revisions. cp01 is now easier, cp02 is still a maze, a better one for race though. cp03 was intended to be a real challenge for the advanced race payers, I now put in a warning in the map screenshot.

http://www.forums.alientrap.local/viewtopic.php?t=4963
http://www.forums.alientrap.local/viewtopic.php?t=4999
http://www.forums.alientrap.local/viewtopic.php?t=5057

Anyway, if you don't like something about my maps, tell me directly.

divVerent wrote:The problem is that it's bad enough that mostly such maps are made.

Probably one of the most ignorant things I've heard you say, simply because others don't share your vision about what ~Race should be~.

You undermined the Nexrun with this gamemode, whether intentional or not, that's debatable. My point here is that you are then surprised when nexrun/defrag fans capitalize on the gamemode as a replacement for using ctf flags, which only makes sense seeing as how the gamemodes share the same roots regardless of what Webster's dictionary defines 'Race' as.

For a while you COMPLETELY REMOVED FLAG TIMES when more than 1 player was on a server.... leaving server admins to compile their own version if they wanted them, fixing this later with an OBSCURE cvar, 'g_ctf_captimerecord_allow_assisted'.

BAD enough? Really? Jesus christ, I've never seen so many people be so happy about dying on a defrag style map than with Cyber Parcour 1. This map is epic, plain and simple. The latest revision is easy enough for a player of any skill level to complete as Icarus has show above.


Speaking about these maps in a derogatory way, 'CTS', is rude and uncalled for. You repeatedly scare artists away when you pull this kind of shit. Playing off your own agenda as what is ~good for the game~ with two-faced hypocrites like TVR backing you up. He says 'Oh it's GPL, do what you want', avoiding a common vision in another thread but then he backs you up here.

Everything doesn't have to be so black and white all the time. I think there are better ways to compromise than saying mappers are creating bad maps that are ~ruining the game type~ because as the race records for NN Race prove, it's doing just the opposite.

Also the name of this thread is very misleading.

[-z-] wrote:

divVerent wrote:The problem is that it's bad enough that mostly such maps are made.

Probably one of the most ignorant things I've heard you say, simply because others don't share your vision about what ~Race should be~.

First of all, all I want Race to be is what the dictionaries call it.

If it's a race, it is about finishing faster than everyone else.

Have you ever seen a *race* where regularily, only 10% of the participants finish? No! See.

BAD enough? Really? Jesus christ, I've never seen so many people be so happy about dying on a defrag style map than with Cyber Parcour 1. This map is epic, plain and simple. The latest revision is easy enough for a player of any skill level to complete as Icarus has show above.

I tried the version currently in svn, and fall off too often. Never finished it when trying for a hour.

Everything doesn't have to be so black and white all the time. I think there are better ways to compromise than saying mappers are creating bad maps that are ~ruining the game type~ because as the race records for NN Race prove, it's doing just the opposite.

Trying to help mappers find compromises already failed. I told them to use e.g. water instead of lava like on runrunrun2. Their response: "no, then the noobs can beat the map". These people are elitist bastards seeking to ruin the gaming experience of most players.

Anyway, get your unbeatable maps into that nexrun mod that's supposedly still in progress, but not into the main game, but do not call them race maps. THEY ARE NOT, BY DEFINITION OF THE WORD.

Also, these maps are commonly badly made, even from a technical point of view. They lack support for actual race mode. In qualifying-then-race mode, when the race started, everyone will spawn in the same spot. What is the use of the qualifying then? Maps that do not even fulfill the specs of the game type should NEVER be included with the game. sev should feel free to fix his map, so people actually spawn correctly at the beginning of the __RACE__.

Also, if the map does not do what the game mode is supposed to do, it should not be included with the game. This holds for:

- Nexrun-style maps for Race (IT FREAKING IS NOT A RACE IF 90% OF THE PEOPLE FALL INTO THE VOID ALL THE TIME)
- Subseatrack for CTF (although it is technically CTF, the game mode is abused here)
- ctf_koth (see above)
- mikeeusa-style CTF "find the flag" maps

IMHO Nexrun maps in race are the very same game type abuse as mikeeusa's CTF "find the flag" maps. Sure, some people like hide and seek, and so do others like these nexrun maps. But it's not what the mode is made for.

divVerent wrote:sev should feel free to fix his map, so people actually spawn correctly at the beginning of the __RACE__.

And what better way to go about convincing him to do that than make a "your map is total shit and you're ruining Nexuiz because I said so" thread?

There is a difference between raising awareness and outright offending people.

I was not mostly critizing sev for making the map, but whoever did it for adding it to Nexuiz. As sev himself said, he did not even intend them to be included with the game, but someone decided that behind his back.

Basically, when a map leads to the question "which asshole designed this", then the map is wrong, not the player. Or would you justify a bad user interface with "the users are just too stupid to use it right - I can use vi well, so it has a good UI"?

Talking about ctf maps, many players had already lots of fun (me included) trying to beat records, when race mode didn't exist. The best thing was that u could try to beat records on the maps u normally played. U could learn not only to be faster, but also to find the fastest path, and try different startegies using available weapons, missing things in current race maps (I'm not saying that a race map must have them, just noticing the differences).

CTF maps enjoyable as race maps are A LOT and they aren't 'CTS'.

I propose this: let's make CTF maps available also as RACE maps, but not together with the pure race maps, in another category: CTF RACE.

I included it because it looked awesome. And I didn't know it was missing some entities, because I never play Race.
Still, imo it's Race and not CTS. Sure the biggest weakness is the death by falling. But players are not forced to play it. Just as they are not forced to play any official map.

And I have no idea why CTS is popular, I don't like CTS at all. Plus I can't understand why CTF on space maps is popular, which is worse than CTS imo.

morfar wrote:I included it because it looked awesome. And I didn't know it was missing some entities, because I never play Race.
Still, imo it's Race and not CTS. Sure the biggest weakness is the death by falling. But players are not forced to play it. Just as they are not forced to play any official map.

I agree with your decision to include the map in the game for many of the supporting reasons above (from players such as Icarus, moo and myself).

if you want to c hange a name of the game, make it nexiuz. at least it sounds better

I just played this map to actually see what it was like and see absolutely no point in attempting it again. Please get it out of SVN.

Well... turning this map into something easily playable and still challenging would be hard.

As for that maze map... making a good radar map image for it could do it, except you should not die when teleporting back, and the sprite should be shown correctly.

cyberparcour03 however is just awful to play, too random.

I didn't mean that it was not supposed to be included, but simply that I didn't make it especially for that reason. Most of the active race players prefer the tricky maps over the ones where you run in a circle 20 times, and then some 20 times more.
The reason for my usage of the entities is quite simple. It doesn't give you any significant advantage if you start a few qu in front of someone else.

In my opinion, CyberParcour_v1r2 is easy enough for less experienced players, I made a video to illustrate how to finish it with no trickjumps, no strafe jumping, no kind of complications or difficlut passages:
EDIT: Posted a video to prove it, now deleted to make room for other files.

If someone is not able to do that, I doubt he/she will enjoy playing any race map at all.

Well, when slow, it is hitting that thin rail very exactly all the time... and once you try to be fast, you fall down.

All I ask for is some way to NOT die when you fall down ANYWHERE. Be it a teleport to the previous checkpoint (BTW, teleports can now be speed limited, so it can't be abused to get a better time), or jumppads bringing you somewhere good, does not matter.

Hi there
I think "CTS" race maps are very good for experimented people. The others are boring after 10 times and I think beginners don't really have a good training with these maps.
I play nexuiz since 2 years and I started this mod with the nexuiz 2.5. I learn quickly how to run/jump with "CTS maps" (2 months) and I give thanks for mappers (especially FruitieX, sev and dib).

first of, i have to admit that I never played this mode nor any of its maps.
watching the youtube-vid of one of the critized maps did give me the feeling that its somehow compareable to the bunnytrack gamemode of ut which is still very popular. it kinda works the same way, you have to pass obtacles and die if you fail. once you managed to complete a map you can then try to finish it in a fast(er) time. i gave this mode a try a view times but noticed after a while that i don't have the nerves to play it, since i also don't really like dying constantly
anyway, i know lots of ppl which play it constantly and enjoy it, even as cup-matches on clanbase.

i can understand somehow that it might be frustrating if one implents a gamemode and it evolves in a direction which wasn't intended in the first place. still, if the communtity wants it to be like that i dont understand why it shouldnt be implented.
if the gameplay is too different from the original intention the mode should be -as suggested already- splitted, but integrated as well.
if a mode manages to attract ppl and helps to make nexuiz more popular it can't be a bad thing.

Nexuiz is div0's project to create an FOSS arena shooter that he enjoys, possibly others with similar preferences as well.

Trickjump maps are not included in any other mainstream first person shooter because they completely discard the most integral characteristic of this genre, the aspect of shooting others and being shot at.

These maps are always custom made; sometimes even a comprehensive 'mod' is created, but 'mod' is abbreviation of the term 'modification', the gameplay modification may be drastic to a threshold for which the end result only bears a resemblance to the base game.

Fortunately Nexuiz is licensed under GNU GPL v2, which grants a specific alternative not available with more restrictive licenses, either these trickjump maps and future modifications can remain add-ons, or div0's project can be forked to accommodate them.

divVerent wrote:And the "community" which "like" these maps don't actually like the MAPS, but like boasting and watching noobs like me fail at them in spectator mode.

That is simply not true, I see newbies asking for help and I see them getting help from players who are able to do those maps. And in any case, anyone acting that way with "noobs" deserves to be kicked from servers. I don't like how you keep referring to players that are good as "elitists", that's just not how things go on servers. Sure there are assholes, I can't deny that, but the majority are very helpful to anyone who asks. I usually join race server when it is empty, and if a "noob" joins and I see he can't do the map I'm playing on, I will offer him to try an easier one, and try to show him how he can gain speed to be able to jump longer gaps that are required on harder maps, be helpful in any way I can.

divVerent wrote:"No...The objective of CTS is to complete it, then optimize your run. BTW, you run in RACES."

Except most people can't even GET to optimize their run as it's impossible to beat to them.

Yes, I agree with that. IMO we should just have seperate servers for CTS and RACE maps. That would be less problematic I would guess, if the servers are identified accordingly. But again, that is up to admins. This is exactly the same problem as the Nexican server mentioned in that other thread.

Also, I'm pretty sure that's not the first time I said this, maybe not on the forums, but mappers that make race maps should think about all skill levels. So instead of making very hard tricks where you die when you miss, they should rather turn those tricks into routes that are harder to do that when succeeded make you gain time on the easier routes. I've been working on 2 maps that are like that but I suck and I am slow at mapping so I can't even show an example for it. It is very complicated to do, have to make sure every part of the maps can be done easily and test all the hard parts to check how much time can be gained against each easier parts, etc.

CTS maps should be seen as "challenge" maps rather than Race, that is for sure.

However, you would be surprised at the amount of "noobs" joining race servers and spending 2 hours on a single map, asking and receiving help. When they get stuck at one part, they'll ask for someone to show them how to do it, etc. It's as much puzzle maps as the porto maps, really, which also are not typical Race maps either but nobody is complaining about those. There are various type of maps because Race mode is still new, people are trying different things with the mode, it doesn't matter if that is not how it was intended to be used, you obviously cannot control that, you either accept the diversity of it all and we'll find ways to seperate those into categories somehow, or you stay frustrated.

It IS an issue that needs to be fixed, but saying everyone that doesn't agree with you are elitists does not really do much except ending up with threads like this one where everyone is arguing "I like this and I don't like that" without trying to find a solution. You can be on either side, but everyone will just want what they want.

EDIT: sorry R4ND0M, I had not read your post before posting this, we're pretty much saying the same thing.

However, you would be surprised at the amount of "noobs" joining race servers and spending 2 hours on a single map, asking and receiving help.

Tried that. Even with showpressedkeys and SEEING how others do the jumps, and these people explaining it a hundred times, it's still impossible to do for me. My mouse motion is simply not smooth enough.

There are various type of maps because Race mode is still new, people are trying different things with the mode, it doesn't matter if that is not how it was intended to be used, you obviously cannot control that, you either accept the diversity of it all and we'll find ways to seperate those into categories somehow, or you stay frustrated.

The problem is not diversity, but the lack thereof. When on a server, people always vote for these impossible maps, and never for playable ones. So the ones that are actually fun never get to be played.

divVerent wrote:The problem is not diversity, but the lack thereof. When on a server, people always vote for these impossible maps, and never for playable ones. So the ones that are actually fun never get to be played.

I've seen this happen quite a lot I have to agree. Normally its the case someone shouts "VOTE FOR XYZ" then they are funnily enough the only person that completes it usually...

What is needed are videos explaining(with words) how to complete these maps. The space_race map included with 2.5.1 is quite challenging in the first jump...FIRST JUMP. Either I'm a complete idiot or that jump is father than it looks. I like the idea of splitting the race into two modes, but for the "complete this almost impossible challenge" maps, there needs to be some kind of guidance for noobs(and me) to keep from scaring them off.
BTW, I have tried that jump with many methods with no success.
I like both styles of race mode.
Going for speed is fun.
Completing a challenge is satisfying.

Edit:

I think the included race mode is something that sets Nexuiz apart from other FPS's.
We include it with a game type to show that the game is about skill and motion.
It doesn't have to be incorporated as a mod.
Makes it easier for the noobs to play the maps, and yes, when you finish a hard race map, your skill improves. It is good movement practice.