Well I suggest we ask the admins to find a way to separate the maps so there is less confusion. Atm I dunno if there are other race servers other than NN in North America, so maybe -z- would be open to run 2 servers, one with Race maps and one with CTS maps? The CTS server could be called Race Challenge or something, or even "Complete This Shit" I find is funny I would not have a problem with it being called that, I can easily see us sticking to CTS as a way of calling it.

But obviously, that is still up to admins if they want to do that but nothing wrong in asking.

I would prefer not having it named in the pubs with a curse word shown, but "CTS" would be fine with me. I know I don't count though so whatev.
I'm gonna call it CTIHCDTFIPP - "complete this impossibly hard course designed to frustrate it's potential players"

It seems to me that you want a new game mode with a distinctive name. When you have this sexy new name, you can modify the 'hard' maps mapinfo's.

The mappers will can make maps for the sexy new mode or the regular run mode.

Everybody wins.

I don't even play race maps, because I find them mind-numbingly boring. But it's pretty obvious that they are popular, and there are definitely two distinct styles that everyone here has acknowledged (Race and CTS). Race is for pure speed. CTS is more like a puzzle. It sounds like we're almost to a solution with this. Two game modes....but then divverent says....

Problem is, if we make CTS a separate game mode, we actually SUPPORT that style of maps officially, and thus must include such maps with the game. And that is what really should not happen.

...and I think that is a big mistake. Think of it as a rubix cube. Very few people could solve that thing, but it was very popular. Some people really like those type of games. Eventually, there were people who were able to solve the rubix cube, but with their eyes shut, with one hand, and within 1 minute...or something like that. You get what I'm saying.

I can think of two solutions for this....
[1] Now, solving a rubix cube would be considered an "advanced" thing. I would consider most of these CTS maps to be advanced (at least the one mentioned in this thread). Maybe we should start to RATE these CTS maps on a 5-star scale for skill level. Some mappers could create some easier versions that could be included in the game.

[2] I also like Mastermind's suggestion....

What is needed are videos explaining(with words) how to complete these maps.

Another take on the same idea would be if there could be a "tip" feature that paused the game and explained something to the player, either in audio or in text. Then as someone goes through the map, if they stand in specific places on the map for 3-4 seconds, then a tip appears which explains how to complete that section of the map. Then the mappers would have to define these "tips" as entities in their map. It would look like a spot on the floor with a question mark on it.

Like if they keep falling off of the spiral staircase, then there could be a tip placed right before it that helps explain some ideas for completing that portion.

another idea would be to create something like a mutator (at least its called like that on ut) for these kind of maps which allows the player to set a fixed re-spawnpoint in the map.
setting up training servers running it then would sure help to solve most of the mentioned frustrations.

Dokujisan wrote:Maybe we should start to RATE these CTS maps on a 5-star scale for skill level.

I agree. But also maps based on running skills need it, so better 2 ratings: 1 for pure CTS skill level, another 1 for running skill level.

I agree that 'Complete This Shit' (the first phrase I've ever coined, btw ) should definitely be kept out of official Nexuiz.

And the test is, if you go slowly and carefully through an actual Race map, you won't die. If you go slowly and carefully through a CTS map, you die anyway. In other words, on a Race map any danger you get from dying comes from adding to the map hazards your extreme speed and corner cutting as you try to edge out your competition.


I think the solution to bringing Race mode back to life the way it was meant to be involves changing a couple things to default Race mode:

1) Eliminate the qualifier time trial. Start the competitive race immediately.
2) Activate weapons immediately, racers start with no weapons at all and have to pick 'em up.

Then the icing on the cake would be:

3) Race AI for bots.

That isn't needed immediately but would help alot, whenever someone is able to make it happen. Kind of like the new Onslaught AI mand1nga created will probably help Onslaught become better recognized in the community or at the very least make it fun even without a large following of human players.

1) Eliminate the qualifier time trial. Start the competitive race immediately.

This I fully agree with, having seen many a pro frustrated that they couldn't actually race to win because noobs(like me )couldn't finish such maps as cyberparcour and runrunrun for qualifying.

Using tips in game would be a great idea, but takes some work to implement on the part of the devs. Maybe having a website dedicated to the race mode and tutorials for it(youtube channel) could be created. An example from the well known game Halo Halo Tracks. The website appears to be down right now, but it was the resource for all things related to mongoose racing in Halo. It hosted maps, the gametype, and races, as well as a forum for the game.

Maybe a less drastic approach could be made with this idea:
Let a clan make the website and maintain it.

This would make the challenge of playing Race maps and CTJ maps less frustrating and a little more fun.

*sigh*

Hint for you mappers (who missed divVerent's post), there is now an optional speed cap for teleporter destinations in SVN. This is perfect for making "CTS" maps playable for newbie racers (or people who just _can't_ get all the trickjumps right). If the player falls down, he can then start the room over with the speed a "pro player" would have at that point (that you can separately set in each teleporter dest), and he gets to retry the room as many times as he wants instead of having to start all over from the start line. Also, he can't abuse the teleporter to gain speed anymore.

BTW to do this: set the speed key inside of a misc_teleporter_dest. If you set it to -1, the player will come out with no speed at all, which is great for teleporting him from the finish to the start line. Keep in mind it's a cap, which means if you set it to 1000 and the player enters the teleporter with a speed of 600, he'll come out with a speed of 600. Now if he instead comes at 1200, it'll obviously be capped to 1000. Oh and we now also have support for a real finish line, just make it have the biggest checkpoint cnt, and set spawnflags 8.

Edit: perfect quote for this thread from master[mind]'s sig:
"Winning requires Learning.
You Learn by Losing.
Thus Winning requires Losing."

Now we can do the learning part because of the teleporter feature, instead of starting all over and getting frustrated.

Isn't the respawning already implemented, where in the actual race you respawn at the spawn points linked to the last passed checkpoint? Couldn't this be extended to the qualifying phase?

I can understand that unexperienced players would prefer teleporters bringing you back, but look at it this way:
When you pick up the Rocket Launcher in DM, you don't get respawned with it after you fall down somewhere, only because it then would be easier. Or when you are carrying the flag in CTF and get fragged, you can't retry your flagrun fully stacked and starting at the opponents base, only because you otherwise would have to go through the whole map and breach the their defense again.

But if you play regularly and improve your skills, the reward is the rush you get when capturing the flag, or winning the DM 30:29, not because it was easy enough for anyone to be able to do it, but because it is hard.

I don't think anyone demands to make the "real" gamemodes so easy that everyone can compete with advanced players after 10 minutes of training.
It took me weeks to get useful in CTF, and even longer to have a chance against good players in Minsta, there is no reason why Race shouldn't be challenging too, rather than just a mini-game-add-on. Otherwise, there probably won't be anyone who will play it regularly.

I think sev is totally right I had to learn playing race to to can finish maps like vert or nexrun_fun etc. so why shouldn't the others have to do that too?

This would make sense if the only goal was to *complete* a race... But what the advanced players try to do is optimizing their runs. And that's certainly not something you can do if you rely on the help systems.
Ozo, what's the problem if a beginner can complete the map, if you can still beat it way faster than he does?

Ozomahtli wrote:I think sev is totally right I had to learn playing race to to can finish maps like vert or nexrun_fun etc. so why shouldn't the others have to do that too?

I think Stallman is totally right I had to learn using emacs so I can edit files like sendmail.cf etc. so why shouldn't the others have to do that too?

officially, CTS can be Complete This Stage, and the maps could come as a mod with a long campaign of increasing difficulty

I like this "official" meaning for CTS :p

Someone should try kof survival on expert. Mario looks too easy.

divVerent wrote:

Moo wrote:1) I've beaten nexrun1 with the magic of repetition also.

2) 1 hour a day for 1 year can get you to the point of mad skillz

I played more than that and still lack the skill for such maps. Argument disproven.

3) If it's ruining the game type, yet mappers are still making maps of this sort, then shouldn't it have its own game type?

It deserves no game type at all. And absolutely no such maps should ever be included with Nexuiz. It only took me so long to realize cyberparcour01 is so bad because I trusted z on his judgement of the map being "easy" and had not playtested it.

Yet another proof that z is recklessly trying all means to get what he wants, and thus cannot be trusted.

divverent what's so hard to allow two different types of maps?

So because you dislike the maps, this means that it doesn't deserve it's own game-mode because people have taken an idea you originally created and expanded on it, it's more about YOU don't like it from what i'm reading it.

If you want people to make the race maps like oval, street race etc great, that's fine and lot's of people appreciate them and the RACE mode you made, and I can see why you don't want these non looping maps, as you told me before you created RACE to be like a RACE, where you keep going around in a track.

However, when people want to expand on the idea, you simply resort to shooting them down and that's just wrong.

It's not hard to put them into a new game-type, or separate them from maps actually designed for the Race game-mode into another category as long as they are labelled, or something to show there map difficulty.

You and -z- may have your differences, but what you wrote is really out of order..that's just pure arrogance really

divVerent wrote:Anyway, get your unbeatable maps into that nexrun mod that's supposedly still in progress, but not into the main game, but do not call them race maps. THEY ARE NOT, BY DEFINITION OF THE WORD.

1) Yes it's still in progress as you will know.

2) And I asked the mappers to put the prefix nr_ before each map so people will know it is a nexrun map so I hope this helps.

3) Regarding cyberparcour and a teleporter to the last checkpoint you went through, 100% agree, and asked frutiex to do the same on nexrun maps where you do not need speed from earlier on in the map.

What regular race lacks is speed and car physics.
Race would be more fun if morphed and tzork made a wheeled racecar vehicle or two , that using a cvar such as "sv_start_vehicle vehicle_racecarnitro" would then start all players in that vehicle, ofcourse one could get out of the vehicle as normal, also if that svar was not set then it would be a normal foot race. That svar could work for all modes and be in the mutator menu perhaps (with a pulldown to select the vehicle?

You're winnar is the most fun race map because it sorta has both (but the vehicles aren't real like the spiderbot is)

Anyone up for making a super hot racecar (with cockpit) for nexuiz?

Maybe an enclosed ducati ducati ducati type mortorcycle for nexuiz (or perhaps a one wheeled motorcycle where the cockpit is in the center like the ewheel (but bigger) or the monocycle.)

k0jak wrote:... what's so hard to allow ... different types of maps ... It's not hard to put them into a new game-type ...

That's not the point, as soon as official support added, official CTS maps will follow.

Any CTS game-type support should remain an add-on.

Revision 7155 wrote:- add a "frustrating" flag to race maps in mapinfo so they are not playable by default
- set the flag on cyberparcour01

Cyberparcour should be removed from the release branches as it isn't accessible by the menu, otherwise it would waste millions of MB each release in bandwidth of the average players of Nexuiz.

Yet eggandbacon, the ugliest piece of shit that teaches people to play like assholes, created by the lead developer, stays in.

Wtf

Who in their right mind would expect ANYTHING positive resulting from such pathetic offenses?

[-z-] wrote:Yet eggandbacon, the ugliest piece of shit that teaches people to play like assholes, created by the lead developer, stays in.

You should work for North Korea, they've got a whole foreign office that would perfectly fit your diplomatic skills.

-z- is making a point and i beleive he had to state it that way to make the point clear . i wont badger another mappers creation but i will say that sed map really only offers a change in pace . basically all out spam war , which is fun once a month .
i also see that he is saying " If there is one extreme , why not another ?" .

whatever nexuiz does , it will attract people to play .

also i think that talking about topics like these are good . we all have our points of veiw , thus and understanding can be conceived and a fix can be implememnted .

Revision 5409 - Directory Listing
Added Mon Jan 5 12:42:09 2009 UTC (6 months ago) by div0

Committing eggandbacon, so we have a "weapon zoo" map where they all can be tried out.

But you two don't actually rebalance the weapons, nor create new ones, therefore have no use for eggandbacon.

egg and bacon is a map, designed to be equivalent to a "weapon chamber", where all pickups available in the game are placed. It's not a map that is supposed to be played (I hope).

Ed wrote:

[-z-] wrote:Yet eggandbacon, the ugliest piece of shit that teaches people to play like assholes, created by the lead developer, stays in.

You should work for North Korea, they've got a whole foreign office that would perfectly fit your diplomatic skills.

It's not hard to see him getting so annoyed Ed, divVerent insulted him earlier in this thread which was way out of line but I don't see anyone kicking off at that..

divVerent how about we lock this thread, and make a new one discussing ideas of putting the so called 'CTS' maps into another group/game-mode since your that concerned?

I've put up a "Race Light" server until this matter of definition is worked out. I've removed the ~harder maps~ and I'm open to discussion on others to add or remove. I threw in small extremes for those who like to challenge themselves after learning the ropes.

k0jak wrote:It's not hard to see him getting so annoyed Ed, divVerent insulted him earlier in this thread which was way out of line but I don't see anyone kicking off at that..

divVerent how about we lock this thread, and make a new one discussing ideas of putting the so called 'CTS' maps into another group/game-mode since your that concerned?

Actually my comment holds for div's attitude just as well. I should have made it clear, sorry.

I second the locking and re-creation.

Locking wouldn't change any attitudes, such abuse of your forum moderation authority demonstrates your inherent bias and partiality on this topic.