A few notes before I begin: This is a long post since I wanted to say a few things, I'm sorry about that. Nothing wrote here is in any way meant as a complain nor a an "I want this now". This may also be a matter of opinions... I started it over a personal observation comparing different games to Nexuiz.

Anyway, this is something that's been on my mind for a while. I tried or played several shooters alongside Nexuiz, such as UT2004, Alien Arena and others which don't come to mind at the moment. However, when I try comparing the look and feel of those games to that of Nexuiz, I always feel something is missing yet can't tell exactly what.

In other words, try opening a game such as Alien Arena, loading a map and walking around, picking up weapons and shooting them, jumping around and looking at the environment. You get the feeling everything is smooth, complex, and feels more natural, while the environment seems more alive. Load a good Nexuiz map afterward and walk around shooting guns... you feel everything is just too quick and simple, the walking very basic, the environment not complex enough (even on the new Aggressor, Stormkeep2 or Desert Factory), even with all visual details set to maximum and eye candy / gameplay candy cvars enabled.

To make a visual comparative: Nexuiz has all modern rendering details a game can have at this date (bloom, gloss, offset mapping, etc). If we take screenshots from kkrieger as an example and try to compare the looks to that of Nexuiz, I think one can easily feel there's something in Nexuiz that's missing. Here are some examples:

http://pics.nexuizninjaz.com/images/iwm ... t2x2cz.jpg vs. http://pics.nexuizninjaz.com/images/m97 ... dz3zvu.jpg

http://pics.nexuizninjaz.com/images/lm2 ... 7hmklx.jpg vs. http://pics.nexuizninjaz.com/images/2u7 ... vmianf.jpg

(my google images searches here and here for more screenshots to compare)

Although these may not be the main reasons, I made a list of what I think Nexuiz might need to have for a bit more detail:

- Detailed meshes on all maps. Most maps except Desertfactory are made of BSP only, whereas in many games you find details and effects almost everywhere (eg: the map Crash in UT2004).

- More weapon effects. All weapons are static models that bob back when you shoot. I remember when the new weapon models were added (almost an year ago) the Mortar and Rocket launcher had rotating barrels each shot, but they were soon made static again. An idea of a good effect could be: For the Hagar and RL, flames coming out of the weapon's muzzle for 1 second after each shot. In the case of the Electro, blue steam coming out for 1 second.

- More complex camera bobbing. An effect which makes walking feel more realistic in many games is the view bobbing. In Alien Arena the view bobs both vertically and sideways, while in other games the camera lightly leans left and right as well. Also in Nexuiz the camera doesn't lower itself when the player falls from a height (landing viewshake).

- Footsteps. The one thing I always disagreed with in Nexuiz are footsteps being a mutator instead of being enabled by default like in all games. I think it would take away from the simplicity if footsteps were always turned on, and of a slightly higher volume then they are now (especially now that walls cut sounds behind them, so its harder to say they might be used to track people).

- Sounds. Although I like Tenshihan's sounds, I feel some don't give enough realism and effect. For instance the electro ball bouncing sound could be a deep echoing crystal / metallic sound, while the falling sound could be more than a simple footstep (in other games when you fall from up high you hear a grunt and and the player's loaded coat bouncing on them). The rocket launcher could play a mechanical sound after each shot as it prepares a new rocket inside.

There's probably more factors, these are just some of the thoughts I had in mind. But yeah what I'm asking is, what is Nexuiz missing that makes it feel too simple and basic compared to other games? How can Nexuiz be improved to have a more modern look and feel?

First of all, excellent post Mircea! This has been bugging me under the surface as well for a very long time and I agree with all of the solutions you propose. Nexuiz has a more advanced engine in most places versus most games and yet Nexuiz the game still feels too minimal.

The two things that stand out the most to me as weak areas in Nexuiz are:

1) The lack of content polish, from a lack of blender made props in maps or maps built mostly in blender, to a serious lack of diverse and high quality character models (humans and some strange anthropomorphic mutants just don't look like much compared to crazy stuff in Alien Arena and Tremulous). And things like the footsteps and camera movement effects you mentioned make things feel unrealistically smooth.

2) Hyper unrealistic physics. Bunny hopping at automobile speeds, laser jumping as a means of very high speed long distance horizontal travel, running around at olympic speeds without getting tired and changing directions on a dime. There's just no way to get around it, this stuff just trashes the feeling of realism (and confuses and turns away new players).

Flying Steel wrote:2) Hyper unrealistic physics. Bunny hopping at automobile speeds, laser jumping as a means of very high speed long distance horizontal travel, running around at olympic speeds without getting tired and changing directions on a dime. There's just no way to get around it, this stuff just trashes the feeling of realism (and confuses and turns away new players).

This IS Nexuiz if we want very realistic we can play Call of duty , battlefield or whatever...
I love nexuiz because of its own style and it isn't like a standard shooter

Mirio wrote:

Flying Steel wrote:2) Hyper unrealistic physics. Bunny hopping at automobile speeds, laser jumping as a means of very high speed long distance horizontal travel, running around at olympic speeds without getting tired and changing directions on a dime. There's just no way to get around it, this stuff just trashes the feeling of realism (and confuses and turns away new players).

This IS Nexuiz if we want very realistic we can play Call of duty , battlefield or whatever...
I love nexuiz because of its own style and it isn't like a standard shooter

+5

If you don't know already Flying Steel, Nexuiz is MEANT to be this way, change it and you lose everything that Nexuiz is. If people don't like this type of play then they just aren't 'old school' material.

And your nr 1 point isn't easy to fix 'just like that'. There have been and is very hard to get good artists to create content for GPL. And even if you manage to get one or two, stuff like real life gets in the way and they'll soon be on their own way forgetting Nexuiz. It has even happened to me on many occasions, which is why I don't create content all the time.

Mirio wrote:

Flying Steel wrote:2) Hyper unrealistic physics. Bunny hopping at automobile speeds, laser jumping as a means of very high speed long distance horizontal travel, running around at olympic speeds without getting tired and changing directions on a dime. There's just no way to get around it, this stuff just trashes the feeling of realism (and confuses and turns away new players).

This IS Nexuiz

Yes but what IS Nexuiz?

Some people say it is a FOSS shooter with many features.

Some people say it is a shooter with precision weapon balancing.

Some people say it is a simple old fashioned shooter.

Some people say it is a shooter with special physics.

Some people say it is a shooter with a quality community.

But only the first group is certainly correct in the long term. The other definitions have changed alot already and will continue to change.

if we want very realistic we can play Call of duty , battlefield or whatever...

None of those are free.

I love nexuiz because of its own style and it isn't like a standard shooter

That simply isn't true, Nexuiz is alot like all older shooters and all other FOSS shooters besides Tremulous, especially when it comes to physics.

It only seems different when compared to the movement physics of modern commercial shooters, who represent the popular trend far away from Nexuiz' archaic movement "style", which like it or not is probably going to be disappearing from default soon anyway.


But either way I do not see why this is a big issue though, the game ships with configs for every previous version of its physics and it has a mutator menu under which a "classic Nexuiz style" physics option could be placed.

ai wrote:If you don't know already Flying Steel, Nexuiz is MEANT to be this way,

Is or was?

change it and you lose everything that Nexuiz is.

That isn't true, Nexuiz is alot more than a physics mod.

If people don't like this type of play then they just aren't 'old school' material.

Yeah well those are most of the people out there. Just look at the most popular FPS games of today, they are not this 'old school'.

And your nr 1 point isn't easy to fix 'just like that'. There have been and is very hard to get good artists to create content for GPL. And even if you manage to get one or two, stuff like real life gets in the way and they'll soon be on their own way forgetting Nexuiz. It has even happened to me on many occasions, which is why I don't create content all the time.

MirceaKitsune wrote:A few notes before I begin: This is a long post since I wanted to say a few things, I'm sorry about that. Nothing wrote here is in any way meant as a complain nor a an "I want this now". This may also be a matter of opinions... I started it over a personal observation comparing different games to Nexuiz.

Flying Steel wrote:

ai wrote:If you don't know already Flying Steel, Nexuiz is MEANT to be this way,

Is or was?

Both.

ai wrote:

Flying Steel wrote:

ai wrote:If you don't know already Flying Steel, Nexuiz is MEANT to be this way,

Is or was?

Both.

Don't bet on it.

I agree with Flying Steel. I think the physics are one of the reasons too, the player catches speed too fast and somehow does everything too fast. Imo more acceleration time would be nice before the player catches full speed, and possibly a tiny little smaller sv_maxspeed? I also think weapon switching is a little too quick as it is.

Don't really think such changes must necessarily take Nexuiz away from what represents it, I guess it would depend. If any change to make it better can be done I think it should. Imo the physics aren't what represents a game, but health regeneration is an example of what makes Nexuiz be Nexuiz.

If anyone wants a quick, simple and performant gameplay mode, Havoc was made especially for that. I'd view the default Nexuiz mode as a balance between both good and classic gameplay but also having all needed settings and effects for a modern look and feel. Physics are likely just a small part of the simplicity issue though.

You both seem to miss the main point of it all.
Nexuiz is MEANT to be a; Fast paced, old school deathmatch shooter. (Think Quake, NOT CoD or whatever such game).
Taking away, fast paced and old school, you basically just have yet another generic shooter like any other of the millions of games out there.

However, with this I take my leave as the physics will NEVER change to a more realistic CoD type, I bet my life on that. Ergo, making this conversation pointless.

ai wrote:You both seem to miss the main point of it all.
Nexuiz is MEANT to be a; Fast paced, old school deathmatch shooter. (Think Quake, NOT CoD or whatever such game).

Was meant. Only the past is certain. And right now Nexuiz is moving away from old school and closer to what is popular in modern times, by design.

Taking away, fast paced and old school, you basically just have yet another generic shooter like any other of the millions of games out there.

As opposed to the millions of games that were out there that almost no one wants to play anymore? That isn't less generic, it is just backwards.

However, with this I take my leave as the physics will NEVER change to a more realistic CoD type, I bet my life on that. Ergo, making this conversation pointless.

LordHavoc and DivVerent are the lead developers who basically call the shots and since at least 2.5 they have been moving things in this direction, whether you want to believe it or not.

Away from trick jumps, away from hyper speed, away from the nex gun, and towards the tactical. LordHavoc made the TAG disappear, he will make Havoc mode for the most part default apparently and as divVerent said he wants to make the game more normal so that it holds on to new players and he wants slower movement for greater teamplay, so that is almost certainly going to happen eventually too.

As I said physics aren't everything in my opinion. From what I seen there are older games with physics similar to Nexuiz's which still look and feel "smoother" overall. Footsteps and a more complex camera movement during walking are something separate, as well as environmental details.

I think lots of meshes on all maps would be a great start at a modern improvement. There should likely be GPL meshes out there which we can convert to .ase and place around the current maps. I also think we should place coronas over light sources in the current maps, they usually give a good feel. I can edit the .rtlights and place coronas on strong light sources which I'll do that when i return home around the next week.

Oh PS. Lordhavoc said the physics won't change, just the other stuff.

What precisely did he say and when?

Sorry to disturb the discussion but I have to second ai on this. Take away the hyper-speed (but utterly unrealistic) movement and you take away one of the key features of Nexuiz. It is like you would take away any of the other key features like the precise weapon balancing, the quality community and the old-fashionedness. Or the "being a FOSS with many features"

I know I have no say in this but I sure would be very sad to see any of these go. I don't mind rebalancing and adjusting, but turning Nexuiz away from fast-paced hyper-speed insanely-skilled action would make it less interesting for me.

I think Nexuiz has grown its own playerbase that just look for this kind of style. It may not be mainstream, that's probably why many people don't like it on first try. But I believe Nexuiz has its own niche in the "market". Turning it into a game that is more like mainstream would for sure attract more new players, but would also turn away a big part of the community. I'd think twice about that, since Nexuiz has grown such a quality community and since this community is an integral part of what people like about Nexuiz.

Right now, Nexuiz is very special. Please don't turn it into something that is just like all the other stuff.

Just to state my insignificant opinion.

Edit: before anyone gets me wrong, I am NOT against rebalancing (as I said) and I will try to test the settings-to-be on div's server. However, I do like fast-paced action and I don't think turning Nexuiz into some kind of CoD or similar is intended at all.

Back on original topic:

I agree with MirceaKitsune, maps with a good amount of detail like Desert Factory add a great deal to the game's atmosphere. Also the weapon animations would of course be cool. Why was the rotation of the Mortar's Cylinder removed? I'd rather have it as an option to disable the animation than to completely remove it (or is it now optionally to be enabled and I didn't get it...)

I am not so sure about the footsteps... of course sometimes they would be useful (like in Moonstone) but overall I do not care so much. But don't object to it either

halogene wrote:Back on original topic:

I agree with MirceaKitsune, maps with a good amount of detail like Desert Factory add a great deal to the game's atmosphere. Also the weapon animations would of course be cool. Why was the rotation of the Mortar's Cylinder removed? I'd rather have it as an option to disable the animation than to completely remove it (or is it now optionally to be enabled and I didn't get it...)

I am not so sure about the footsteps... of course sometimes they would be useful (like in Moonstone) but overall I do not care so much. But don't object to it either

The animation was removed due to introducing a new weapon animation system, so that someone other than Morphed could make weapon animations (due to Morphed being away near the 2.5 release and us having an EMERGENCY bug: weapons not pointing forward in the first person view). It can be reintroduced, but that requires large adjustments to the animation so that the gun points forward.

divVerent wrote:It can be reintroduced, but that requires large adjustments to the animation so that the gun points forward.

I thought that's what motorsep fixed. So you're saying they still need to point forward?

No. motorsep fixed it by entirely redoing all animations, as there was no way for him to edit the existing ones. And in this process, the rotating mortar got lost.

About the physics. What if a few minor changes would be done without hurting hyper-speed and bunny hopping? (which yes I agree are something that represents Nexuiz and should not be removed, I'm only thinking about a different movement feel). Imo this would include a slower acceleration for normal walking, a slightly lower running speed (from what I tested sv_maxspeed 375 or lower would be fitting, currently at 400) and maybe other minor changes.

As for the weapon animations I fully support adding them back. When I tested them they were pointing correctly in first person view... I always wondered what caused them to be removed.

Footsteps are a matter of opinion. I find it silly for them to still be a mutator personally, and sooner or later I think they'll have to be changed. If people wouldn't find it annoying I support enabling g_jump_grunt as well (you make the landing sound either way when you fall which gives away your location). Sound effects help with the feel and detail which is why I think they're always welcome.

If you fully support it, then do it. Otherwise you aren't supporting but just demanding it.

As for the "not pointing forward" issue:



Mortar had it too, especially visible when moving the weapon to the left (and NOT rotating!):


By drawing a line from muzzle to the crosshair, you could however also see it with the mortar without shootfromcenter.

And the only way to fix it was redoing ALL animations, and changing the animation system so that motorsep could make models for it. This has the drawback that the old files no longer work and need to be edited.

Slower players = Camper heaven ,imo
You can not expect to be the best / fastest / GHEY / whatever player in nexuiz after 1 day its only training training training training [...]

Mirio wrote:Slower players = Camper heaven ,imo
You can not expect to be the best / fastest / GHEY / whatever player in nexuiz after 1 day its only training training training training [...]

I play Nexuiz for over an year and am content with how I'm handling at this day, thanks

375 or close seemed slow enough for a more realistic feel but fast enough to hardly change gameplay any. Just an opinion again, not a demand or something claimed as the right thing to do.

Also, LH seems to want 2.5 player physics even in 2.6, as it's already slowed down a bit compared to 2.4.2 and may be just slow enough.

i don't mean to change the topic, but just a side note about environments.

the environments are realistic beautiful, however you cannot interact with them at all. I think it would help a lot if you added things that you can effect, like glass that if you shoot at it, it shatters, and boxes that you can push around, general stuff like that. and i'm sure we can think of some that are original.

just a thought

Yoda almighty wrote:i don't mean to change the topic, but just a side note about environments.

the environments are realistic beautiful, however you cannot interact with them at all. I think it would help a lot if you added things that you can effect, like glass that if you shoot at it, it shatters, and boxes that you can push around, general stuff like that. and i'm sure we can think of some that are original.

just a thought

We have shattering glass (Although it's not the best in the world, imo).. Map makers just have to use THAT glass instead of normal, solid glass. (Or maybe it's just something you apply to an entity? I don't know.) Also, physics aren't easy to implement into a game... We do have QC physics library (TWIG) -- But I don't know what the story is on adding this. The dev tracker says that it could be included in 2.6, but I doubt that as it would most likely be a bit of work. Also, only new maps could use this technology. As all maps made before this is implemented would have been made with old entities. Basically, I don't see this happening any time soon.

EDIT: A note, stackable objects are not possible in TWIG (They jump around like crazy on top of each other, as the calculation doesn't understand surfaces in such a way), so a wall of boxes wouldn't work very well.

Samual wrote:We have shattering glass (Although it's not the best in the world, imo).. Map makers just have to use THAT glass instead of normal, solid glass. (Or maybe it's just something you apply to an entity? I don't know.) Also, physics aren't easy to implement into a game... We do have QC physics library (TWIG) -- But I don't know what the story is on adding this. The dev tracker says that it could be included in 2.6, but I doubt that as it would most likely be a bit of work. Also, only new maps could use this technology. As all maps made before this is implemented would have been made with old entities. Basically, I don't see this happening any time soon.

This is a larger issue worth highlighting. So many game features take near forever to make it into new maps and they never make it into new official maps. HLAC and CR, Assault, tZork's turrets and spiderbots, this breakable glass, imported props and map features, these just aren't making it into the game do to content lack on the official map side of things. There a no or not enough maps in game that use these great graphical and gameplay features.

I think devs need to recruit another one or two official map makers to create official GPL and balanced maps. You joined up because they made a big deal out of a lack of coders. Getting mappers should only be easier since there are so many veteran map makers in the community it seems. They maybe just need recruitment and interaction with engine coders and content creators to make maps that are not so stark and feature basic to add to and replace the ones that currently ship with the game.

As an avid trickjumper/defragger, I have to say, I don't see myself playing Nexuiz if it gets even slower. If I do play Nexuiz, it would probably be the CPMA mod or some server with 2.4.2 physics for those of us who liked them.

I originally played Alien Arena, and liked it a lot. I then tried Nexuiz to see how it was, and found out that I could move around much quicker, so I haven't played Alien Arena since then. Also, if you want a free tactical shooter, Urban Terror is always there...

I see. thank you for clarifying that.

about speed. how about a compromise: have a mutator for speed, either like for gravity, with a slider, or as a setting for "arcade mode" and "simulation mode"

maybe for the slider, you can have it go even faster :p

Flying Steel wrote:

Samual wrote:...

This is a larger issue worth highlighting. So many game features take near forever to make it into new maps and they never make it into new official maps. HLAC and CR, Assault, tZork's turrets and spiderbots, this breakable glass, imported props and map features, these just aren't making it into the game do to content lack on the official map side of things. There a no or not enough maps in game that use these great graphical and gameplay features.

Actually it really isn't very important (Glass shattering, that is.). HLAC and CR ARE in a bunch of maps actually, same with turrets. Spiderbots aren't complete yet, this is why they aren't used (yet). Assault.. Well, no one has made a map for it yet. Also, there are several maps which DO use breakable glass, but there is no point really. It doesn't really add to it that much.

Flying Steel wrote:I think devs need to recruit another one or two official map makers to create official GPL and balanced maps. You joined up because they made a big deal out of a lack of coders. Getting mappers should only be easier since there are so many veteran map makers in the community it seems. They maybe just need recruitment and interaction with engine coders and content creators to make maps that are not so stark and feature basic to add to and replace the ones that currently ship with the game.

It doesn't really work that way.. Any map could be added to Nexuiz, as long as it meets some pretty high standards. Basically, every map we have (Except a select few) was made by the community iirc. (Or copied from another game.)... Also, I didn't "join up" because of anything they said I started developing for Nexuiz because no one would add the features I wanted, so I decided to do it myself. Of course that then exploded into actually having fun while developing.

But it would be good for people to actually step up and make better maps. (A lot of them use bad textures, bad layouts, horrible item placement, etc etc.) This was actually a point made by LordHavoc over the issue of why we have such a low retention rate. Most of the maps on our public servers are WAY below par, and ruin a good experience on the public servers. There are only a few servers with good map rotations (Like HODM and HOCTF) that are played often. But this is mainly because Dokujisan goes through and tries out each map, seeing which ones are good and which are bad. It's time consuming, but someone has to do it.



Anyway, on the subject of this thread... I think Nexuiz needs more detail in every aspect. Also, lowering the speed would be a ridiculously stupid idea. The main reason I play Nexuiz is because of its speed and physics.. and of course the gameplay itself. If that changes, why should I play just another rip off of a GOOD game?........ That just about sums up my opinion on this.