Nexuiz does not need mappers idk some should correct me but i think there are over 100 maps for nexuiz or even more

Mirio wrote:Nexuiz does not need mappers idk some should correct me but i think there are over 100 maps for nexuiz or even more

However, only a dozen or so are actually good.

I agree with ai on the physics, it is one of the principal interests of Nexuiz imho. Having "realistic" movement instead would be a major pain, it would be way too slow for the maps we have, and for the current weapon balance as well. Also, laserjumps are far from realistic.

And I am with ai on the maps. We have a lot of mappers bot not a great deal of high quality maps.

How about a One Week Mapping Competition for Assault? I still have no idea what it's about and would enjoy a motivation to find out about it

Samual wrote:HLAC and CR ARE in a bunch of maps actually, same with turrets. Spiderbots aren't complete yet, this is why they aren't used (yet). Assault.. Well, no one has made a map for it yet.

Now there are in community maps, but it took some time and they still are not well supported in Nexuiz' own maps.

But it would be good for people to actually step up and make better maps. (A lot of them use bad textures, bad layouts, horrible item placement, etc etc.) This was actually a point made by LordHavoc over the issue of why we have such a low retention rate. Most of the maps on our public servers are WAY below par, and ruin a good experience on the public servers. There are only a few servers with good map rotations (Like HODM and HOCTF) that are played often. But this is mainly because Dokujisan goes through and tries out each map, seeing which ones are good and which are bad. It's time consuming, but someone has to do it.

But there's also servers that play only official maps, there just aren't enough official maps to keep things interesting. And if there were, more servers might stick to just the officials (already some do). And then officials are still very far from perfect.

One way or the other, I think we as the community needs to focus on making a few really, really good official maps rather than craploads that are all over the place.

Anyway, on the subject of this thread... I think Nexuiz needs more detail in every aspect. Also, lowering the speed would be a ridiculously stupid idea. The main reason I play Nexuiz is because of its speed and physics.. and of course the gameplay itself. If that changes, why should I play just another rip off of a GOOD game?........ That just about sums up my opinion on this.

Well that creates more of a challenge to overcoming aesthetic blandness. But it still works if you can visually explain it in a way that people understand.

Like the jetpack, everyone knows a jetpack basically makes you fly, and the thruster effect you see in game helps get across what is going on with this, and it'll only be better when one of us (community content creators) gets around to making a jetpack model. Grapple hook is the same thing, it shoots out a hook and on a tether of somekind that show you what it is doing and how. The laser does an okay job to a lesser extent, but if yoda's model was used for this or something similarly utilitarian and multi-purpose looking, I think that'd make laser jumping "make sense" so to speak.

Bunny Hopping needs some thought though. When someone just bobs past you at 70 MPH, with no clear indication of what he is doing to make that happen or how it is working, your brain can only say "what the hell was that?" You need something more to explain how this is happening.

Tribes had "skiing" with somekind of ion-thruster boots. Maybe Nexuiz could use a "striding" animation when speed hopping, and some similar kind of thruster pulse effect with each step when you are hopping in excess of your running speed?

tundramagi wrote:Can I enter my Evad Project assault map into that: it only took a week to build IIRC.

Nope, unless it happens to fit the theme and requirements... Which are not decided yet.

PinkRobot wrote:... How about a One Week Mapping Competition for Assault? I still have no idea what it's about and would enjoy a motivation to find out about it ...

Assault City has been in development for over two years, the majority of the time comes from making a non-linear layout, while continuing to keep attackers entertained with interesting objectives, and the defenders with interesting methods to defend such objectives.

Besides, learning how to use the assault entities will probably take a week.

TVR wrote:

PinkRobot wrote:... How about a One Week Mapping Competition for Assault? I still have no idea what it's about and would enjoy a motivation to find out about it ...

Assault City has been in development for over two years, the majority of the time comes from making a non-linear layout, while continuing to keep attackers entertained with interesting objectives, and the defenders with interesting methods to defend such objectives.

Besides, learning how to use the assault entities will probably take a week.

Who is working on Assault City?

tundramagi wrote:AI Deleted my mothers sweet and heartfelt posts.

Why would anyone want to see your mother doing that?

Who is working on Assault City?

TVR is.

OK then... erm... how about a 5-year Mapping Competition for Assault?

heh

I can make a jetpack model. it never occurred to me that their isn't one. i would also like to try and make a flame thrower model, but that's less important :p

and I was thinking today, and I think i figured out what a lot of the maps are missing.

purpose

a lot of the maps lack a clear sense of purpose. a 3D modeler once gave me a little talk about greebling on spaceships. he told me they look a lot better when they appear to actually do something, as opposed to just random boxes and things. i think this applies to every field of 3D modeling, including map making. it's great to have lots of little details, but what do they add up to? say a factory map, you have lots of boxes lying around, but what are the boxes for? what's in them? who put them there, and where are they presumably going? how are they getting there? and what will happen to them when they get there? all these things and more should be considered when making a map.

and also, maybe there is a story behind the map. is the factory still in operation or abandoned? maybe there was an explosion, and a large section of the roof is collapsed, with burned and twister metal everywhere. (one of the only maps i found like this is "the doom that came to durwich", with the gem that fell through the building and the ominously suggestive name)

just some things to consider

Yoda almighty wrote:heh

I can make a jetpack model. it never occurred to me that their isn't one. i would also like to try and make a flame thrower model, but that's less important :p

and I was thinking today, and I think i figured out what a lot of the maps are missing.

purpose

a lot of the maps lack a clear sense of purpose. a 3D modeler once gave me a little talk about greebling on spaceships. he told me they look a lot better when they appear to actually do something, as opposed to just random boxes and things. i think this applies to every field of 3D modeling, including map making. it's great to have lots of little details, but what do they add up to? say a factory map, you have lots of boxes lying around, but what are the boxes for? what's in them? who put them there, and where are they presumably going? how are they getting there? and what will happen to them when they get there? all these things and more should be considered when making a map.

and also, maybe there is a story behind the map. is the factory still in operation or abandoned? maybe there was an explosion, and a large section of the roof is collapsed, with burned and twister metal everywhere. (one of the only maps i found like this is "the doom that came to durwich", with the gem that fell through the building and the ominously suggestive name)

just some things to consider

Wow, I can't believe you said that, that was exactly one of the things I wanted to bring up about the maps but forgot to. They look like extremely random and contrived maze-y maps with no purpose besides being maps (with the exception of desert factory).

I already decided for myself that when and if I dove into netradiant, I would only make maps that made sense in this way. Everything would not just make sense for gameplay, it would make sense in having a believable purpose that was consisent with the same sci-fi universe.

Quite a point you have there Yoda.

/off topic (DCC DM ADMINS!! pls pls pls include the correct/final version of penthouse and the durwich map in the mappool : ( : ( pls pls pls) /off topic

Flying Steel wrote:One way or the other, I think we as the community needs to focus on making a few really, really good official maps rather than craploads that are all over the place

Thats right, the problem with most of the community made maps that they just dont contain enough details to provide nice eyecandy, they are mostly focused on some paths that are built up, and not the enviroment. The most typical example is silvercity: look at the original and the new map, yeah i know there quite lot of differences because of the new hiding places but even without that: the routes players use (jumppads to top, or they are long range fighting in the bottom level) are mostly the same, still the visual quality cant be compared. Thats what we need more. I am really really noob to mapping, but if someone knows campgrounds for example, he knows that the main paths are up for a month, but if I textured it and commited it it would be just one of those lot of plain maps, so im working for more than 1 month only on the addition of the details. I know it enlarges the creation of maps by GIGANTIC factor, but this can be one of the crucial way to provide quality gaming enviroment in my opinion. A map shouldnt be just a 1-2 weeks project, that "okey its mostly up, gameplay is final, lets commit".

Flying Steel wrote:When someone just bobs past you at 70 MPH, with no clear indication of what he is doing to make that happen or how it is working, your brain can only say "what the hell was that?"

LOOL Yes, "wtf?!?!" is the most frequent sentence that flashes through the brain of a newbie fireing Nexuiz for the first time and playing againt a very fast player, but in the 3rd start "wtf?!" will turn into "cool! how can i do that?". Nexuiz is not a CoD, this game is not made to be popular, but to be a quality arcade shooter, and in the flood of todays shooters (dont wanna advertise them, but everyone can list at least 10 big names where you walk on a gigantic island with super-realistic physics and weapons) people are used to these games, they expect something like those they see on the market. If they think "damn, i want to fight with the same chances using ONLY tactic" then Nexuiz is just not for them, they should try Urban Terror if they want a free CS... This game has a goddamn deep learning curve, and yes, if you are new you have disadvantage if you dont want to get know the game. Its perfectly the same as "i know how to punch, gimme Mike Tyson, I will beat the heck out of him". ("aaaaa where are my ears??" )
It sounds crazy but the problem is not with the arcade shooters (that are far more enjoyable due their high speed imo) but the expectation of the people that shifted torwards something else in the last years.

FraNcoTirAdoR wrote:

Flying Steel wrote:One way or the other, I think we as the community needs to focus on making a few really, really good official maps rather than craploads that are all over the place

Thats right, the problem with most of the community made maps that they just dont contain enough details to provide nice eyecandy, they are mostly focused on some paths that are built up, and not the enviroment. The most typical example is silvercity: look at the original and the new map, yeah i know there quite lot of differences because of the new hiding places but even without that: the routes players use (jumppads to top, or they are long range fighting in the bottom level) are mostly the same, still the visual quality cant be compared. Thats what we need more. I am really really noob to mapping, but if someone knows campgrounds for example, he knows that the main paths are up for a month, but if I textured it and commited it it would be just one of those lot of plain maps, so im working for more than 1 month only on the addition of the details. I know it enlarges the creation of maps by GIGANTIC factor, but this can be one of the crucial way to provide quality gaming enviroment in my opinion. A map shouldnt be just a 1-2 weeks project, that "okey its mostly up, gameplay is final, lets commit".

Exactly. Maybe the best way to go is to make a "gameplay test" map that is very minimal, like public maps, and test it alot for various aspects of balance. Then if it passes that test, put it on the "approved list", at which point mappers and maybe 3D artists work together to bring it up to official visual quality or better.

Or maybe we could do this with already popular community maps, as long as the author has or can be convinced to release it as GPL.

Flying Steel wrote:When someone just bobs past you at 70 MPH, with no clear indication of what he is doing to make that happen or how it is working, your brain can only say "what the hell was that?"

LOOL Yes, "wtf?!?!" is the most frequent sentence that flashes through the brain of a newbie fireing Nexuiz for the first time and playing againt a very fast player, but in the 3rd start "wtf?!" will turn into "cool! how can i do that?". Nexuiz is not a CoD, this game is not made to be popular, but to be a quality arcade shooter, and in the flood of todays shooters (dont wanna advertise them, but everyone can list at least 10 big names where you walk on a gigantic island with super-realistic physics and weapons) people are used to these games, they expect something like those they see on the market. If they think "damn, i want to fight with the same chances using ONLY tactic" then Nexuiz is just not for them, they should try Urban Terror if they want a free CS... This game has a goddamn deep learning curve, and yes, if you are new you have disadvantage if you dont want to get know the game. Its perfectly the same as "i know how to punch, gimme Mike Tyson, I will beat the heck out of him". ("aaaaa where are my ears??" )

I'm only talking about a graphical change now. The physics and learning curve would be the same.

Bunny hopping doesn't look like anything from reality or Sci-fi, so new folks don't know what to make of it, except maybe accuse you of cheating.

But maybe if it looked like it was part of the game, with a stride animation of somekind and/or some sort of ion/jump/pulse boot sci-fi effect, new players would more easily "get it".

Well, about striding or not. You would really have to take that up with the coders. I don't know if it's possible or how easy/hard it is to do. However, if support would be added then I could create stride animation for that. But you really would have to talk to the dev coders about that.

ai wrote:Well, about striding or not. You would really have to take that up with the coders. I don't know if it's possible or how easy/hard it is to do. However, if support would be added then I could create stride animation for that. But you really would have to talk to the dev coders about that.

Well the TC and many of the posters here are such folks, but I am mainly just highlighting "a gap in the fence" so to speak, offering a couple of possible solutions and seeing if anyone else has any ideas for solutions.

Because the GH, JP, Laser, even ramp jumping (and wall jumping for that matter) look and feel fairly intuitive and sensical, because the former 3 use a technological means and the later is just a little exaggerated.

Beyond that, bunny hopping just doesn't look that cool imo, especially given what it does, so I think there is room to improve it visually, it is just a matter of how.

So what are you saying? You want a different animation to take place for laser jumping and for ramp jumping?
I don't know what you mean with TC, GH and JP.

It's true: The majority of the maps is lacking of purpose.
Why?: If you build a map you often have an initial idea about something you want to see ingame. This can be something regarding the gameplay, like a unique trickjump or a well-designed layout. It can be some sort of setting, like a realistic town, the surface of an asteroid or a underwater cave. Or the map can evolve around a story or "purpose" which in most cases also defines the setting.
Fact is that Nexuiz is a fast-paced FPS game without any story-driven elements, so the focus is definitely on the gameplay-side.

Players who are into the game are focused on playing it and not on understanding the environment. But if a new player plays a map for the first time it's good to give him the feeling of entering an environment that makes sense in some way. He'll then be more motivated to explore his environment and such gets more involved into the game-world. So to attract new players, this is the way to go, but it's optional .

The problem i see is that many maps lack of atmosphere, a defined continous unique style and details. You don't need to explain why there's a moving brush in your map, but you need to have it all fitting together somehow. Having a purpose for such elements helps in this task but is not mandatory to make a good map for Nexuiz.
And yes: Making it all fit together and polishing the details takes a lot of time, which many mappers don't want to invest after they finished the basics of their initial idea.

Art needs time, and without artists (mappers are artists) taking their time, the maps they produce won't be polished, won't involve the player into the game-world and always will have that "unfinished" feeling about them. Still they can be fun, but they could be so much more...

A lot of maps out there are filled with good ideas, some are working with Nexuiz, some are not, but in most cases they are broken by poor realisation on the technical and the stylistic side.
So my advice for all mappers who want to produce good maps: Take your time! Test your map! If you don't feel satisfied with the result, change your map! Look into other maps that work for you and try to figure out WHY they work! (what architectural elements are used to produce a certain feeling? How is it lit? What size is used? Why is it fun to play on it (what are the major gameplay elements)? etc...)
Also take criticism to learn how to make better maps.

That's where i would like to address the players who give feedback: Be honest. Don't be an asshole, but give constructive feedback. I can't read posts like "Whoohoo. Ur m4p r0XX" anymore when it's obvious that a lot of crucial elements for a good map are missing (most of the time it's the texturing, the lighting or the item placement). It's those details which make for good polished maps, and mappers need feedback on those! For example there are often misaligned textures somewhere which just are overseen by the mapper. Point them out! You're not nitpicking, you're helping to improve the game experience!

And we need more modelers to make map-objects

btw.: Comparing Nexuiz to kkrieger regarding the visuals doesn't work, as kkrieger is a singleplayer game, thus gives the designers much more possibilities to guide the gamer's attention and involvement via lighting and scripted events. Nevertheless Nexuiz needs more eye-candy in these days.

Heh... /me posting

ai wrote:So what are you saying? You want a different animation to take place for laser jumping and for ramp jumping?

No, I think those are pretty good the way they are right now, is what I meant.

But bunny hopping stands out to me as needing something more in the graphics department, be it animations, particle effects, etc.

I don't know what you mean with TC, GH and JP.

TC is short for "Topic Creator". What I was saying with that was the person who started this thread asking for ideas and opinions is actually a coding developer himself (Mircea, as opposed to the other "Kitsune" ).

GH is Grapple Hook and JP is Jet Pack. I mentioned these because they add alot of fun mobility and speed to Nexuiz in a way that everyone can see and understand.

hmmm

i watched a video of urban terror and kkrieger. the one thing i noticed in urban terror that i think is better is the animations show the hands a lot. i haven't seen that in nexuiz, and i think that's a relatively unradical thing that could be changed, to lend a slightly more personal feel to the players. and kkrieger just looks boring. the design of the levels basically means you walk forward, shoot things, walk forward, shoot more things, walk forward, shoot things, maybe back up a little while shooting until it dies, walk forward, shoot things, etc.

just my 2 cents

In my opinion Nexuiz gameplay isn't missing a damn thing except some maps. I think what Nexuiz needs is some polish on the animations, models, and a few textures. One thing I think would neat (I think somebody already said this) is if somebody worked on animations for bunny hopping to make it look more believable.

@ Yoda

A single web page is probably bigger than what kkrieger is. The whole demo is only a few KB big.

Lee_Stricklin wrote:I think what Nexuiz needs is some polish on the animations, models, and a few textures. One thing I think would neat (I think somebody already said this) is if somebody worked on animations for bunny hopping to make it look more believable.

Yeah that was me, I have a few ideas that could be used in combination, that might aesthetically improve bunny hopping (we need something better to call it BTW).

1) Stride Animation. Basically, you have alternating animations each time you jump- you bound with one leg going back and then the other, etc., which might make it look more like running or such than "hopping" over and over.

2) Jump Boots. Each time you jump and/or land when moving over your usual top speed (10 MPS), a burst or glow of luminous particles (with SFX) comes out of the bottom of your boots. The faster you are going, the more intense this gets. This is like somekind of accelerated particle / repulsorlift device that gives you a boost when running and acts as a cushion when you fall, explaining your special abilities at both.

3) A whooshing wind sound, that plays when you are moving at high speeds. It should start to play when you are moving over the speed limit, and then grow in volume as your speed increases. I can't stress enough how BIG of a difference this would make at giving a sense of speed that is utterly lacking otherwise. For flavor, it should be turned off for maps with a space setting though maybe.


A minor gameplay change that'd also help with polish and enhancing the feeling of speed would be to increasing the minimum speed and maximum damage for collision damage. Running or falling into a floor, wall or another player should start to cause damage at a much slower speed (right now it is set really, really high) and max out at 100 damage rather than 25. Then crashes are fun, while still very rarely impactful (pun ) but it gives you a better sense of your speed and adds just a little more incentive to be skillful in your high speed movement.

One last polish suggestion I want to throw out here is visual player damage/armor. Damage maps (a kind of texture) could show health level, with full health looking normal but with the damage map becoming more opaque and dominant as health gets lower. The damage map could look like anything from blood stains and bruising, to glowing metal and maybe dents/scratches for robots. Armor increases would add armor models to the player models, like helmets, vests, joint pads, a face mask, etc. This would also allow you to know what you are up against in a fight, just as you can see what weapon is being wielded against you.

Flying Steel wrote:... A minor gameplay change ... would be to increasing the minimum speed and maximum damage for collision damage ...

Unjustifiable, would completely ruin both all existing impulse values for weapons, and fundamental map design concepts [Jump-pads].

TVR wrote:

Flying Steel wrote:... A minor gameplay change ... would be to increasing the minimum speed and maximum damage for collision damage ...

Unjustifiable, would completely ruin both all existing impulse values for weapons, and fundamental map design concepts [Jump-pads].

I can't see how you've come to such an extreme conclusion.

Only the rocket launcher can produce enough force to accelerate you past max run speed (10 MPS). Jump pads don't just slam you into things at high speeds, they send you into the air on a high arc so that by the time you land at your destination you are not hitting the ground with enough speed.

And remember, Nexuiz only delivers collision damage based on deceleration from dead on impacts.

Currently it seems you start taking fall damage at 40 MPS, I suggest lowering this to 25 MPS (or 30 MPS max). For each MPS of impact speed after that point, I suggest 2 hitpoints of damage be delivered. If you test this on the maps with the speedometer running, you'll find this makes very, very little difference.

You might lose about 10 or 20 damage on the worst fall in Strength and about 40 from the worst possible fall in Silvercity. Only in the crappy designed Blue Sky can you get a 90 damage fall, and if that's a problem you could just replace the Strength with a Shield on the top platform, which would make it less damaging than it is now.

Seriously, just to make it clear. Nexuiz is not realistic nor does it tend to be. So pushing for more 'realistic' gameplay for Nexuiz is not the way to go.
If you indeed want a more realistic game then I think Nexuiz is not for you. So stop trying to change it to such. Falling damage isn't, and has never been, a problem before, don't fix what isn't broken.

ai wrote:Seriously, just to make it clear. Nexuiz is not realistic nor does it tend to be. So pushing for more 'realistic' gameplay for Nexuiz is not the way to go.

This is quite clear by now and I believe that if you review the specific value changes that I have suggested, it will logically lead you to the conclusion that they would not create a realistical model for fall damage, not by a long shot. Thus realism is not the intent.

Falling damage isn't, and has never been, a problem before, don't fix what isn't broken.

However this thread is not about fixing problems that are broken, but coming up with improvements to enhance the 'feel' of the game. Or at least that is my understanding.

Flying Steel wrote:However this thread is not about fixing problems that are broken, but coming up with improvements to enhance the 'feel' of the game. Or at least that is my understanding.

It's obvious to me that this thread was not intended to focus on game play (player physics, weapon balance). It's ultimately about visual and aural perception when playing Nexuiz and why it comes across as inferior compared to other games.

parasti wrote:

Flying Steel wrote:However this thread is not about fixing problems that are broken, but coming up with improvements to enhance the 'feel' of the game. Or at least that is my understanding.

It's obvious to me that this thread was not intended to focus on game play (player physics, weapon balance). It's ultimately about visual and aural perception when playing Nexuiz and why it comes across as inferior compared to other games.

Most of what I suggested falls under that category, only the fall damage thing uses a different means to the end of better aesthetics, IMO. The impression I got from Mircea was this was okay, that the end of trying to close the aesthetics gap was the main idea.

Yes, the intent of this topic was discussing anything that could make Nexuiz feel more complex / modern / alive to the player. Changes on physics or any other possible improvement fall into this category, though my intention was not being ignorant to what Nexuiz is nor to those who are used to it the way it's been over the years.

I should mention that I tried tweaking the physics settings (I've been trying to make a Nexuiz mod that would make everything look and feel more realistic and modern by modifying cvars) and just modifying the physics cvars doesn't change a lot of the feel. As I may have said in the first post, I don't know what exactly is needed to push the feel of Nexuiz to that of more modern games (except more map meshes). The simple / quick / sharp feel might even be created by how the engine renders the scene and movement, to a point.