Dokujisan wrote:This is a flawed approach. I explained this pretty well in IRC yesterday in the dev channel. The reason why this is a flawed approach is that the goal should be to have EVERY player become an advanced player (someday). However, if the game is not setup with very much depth of gameplay, then there is nothing of interest for advanced players.

But how is depth of gameplay being undermined? The HLAC and Fireball can't be powerful enough to do that, some folks have even said they find the HLAC underpowered.

Plus when did Nex have more gameplay depth? When it was dominated by MG, NEX and RL back in 2.3? When you could circle jump faster? Where's the depth in that?

What I'm getting at is the new weapons aren't necessary evidence that the gameplay depth and balance is degrading. IMO, it actually seems to be improving, though the havoc balance might change this come 2.6, if it does not go through some heavy changes before then.

So the theory of lowering the ceiling to make it fun for new players will eventually result in those people being disinterested in the game over the longterm (much like a lot of Nexuiz regulars have started to become recently).

What might look like lowering the ceiling might only be lowering the floor. The default crylink people said was spammy, but you'll still be at a severe disadvantage if you wield it against an experience player and you can't accurately lead him and guess his moves. This applies to all the spammiest weapons in my experience, if they can't be wielded accurately they won't do enough damage to save your ass against an opponent with moderate skill.

Instead, the goal should to properly develop the gameplay so it does have depth to it, but also work on ways to more quickly bring new players up to intermediate skill level so they can actually enjoy the game for its depth.

Well it should also be the kind of depth that is fun, and there's nothing wrong with a self described "simple shooter" being "easy to learn" (while hard to master) either, methinks.

Well... from my point of view as co-leader: I share the view that apparently currently something is broken with the game and I *welcome* shifting towards a "friendly to new players" tuning.

While I can absolutely see this may upset some players (and I'm sorry for that) I'd hope we could simply try things out without being crucified beforehand (nah, that's too strong a wording, but you get the idea).

What I don't get is that apparently nobody realizes that weapon balance is something easily changed by some cvars and that the "pro community" could simply provide something fitting their needs that fits like a glove - that'd be a really simple mod. That'd be constructive and I'd even vote for including it with Nexuiz and e.g. give it a different color in the server browser (if possible).

So if the "pro community" can actually decide on something they like that could be something constructive. If most servers would happen to use that mod... well, that'd be some sort of community vote, too.

We can have the pony AND the cake.

francotirador means sniper in spanish : ) think of that and correlate with the kitty in the avatar : D . And the associations become even easier if you have played with him not fake-nicking ^^

divVerent wrote:They never help other people in a game, as all they care for is winning.

Wait, what? I'm sorry that you're feeling attacked, but this is nonsense. That's pretty insulting and that definitely shows you are completely ignorant about those "pro-gamers". First of all there's no such thing in Nexuiz anyway, there's merely a competitive community slowly growing and dying at the same time, and for that reason those players are acting opposite of what you are saying, they want more players to join in so they're happy to help newbies learn the game, give them lessons on how to use weapons, etc. There are exceptions of course, but very few of them. It's unfortunate that you had to deal with a couple of those "exceptions" in the last year on the forums and on irc (not going to mention names), but looks like you made your mind already that those couple people represented all of us.

In fact, nexuiz's competitive community is so amazingly healthy, it can't even be compared to what it is in other games. Not in the sense that it's very active or that there's a lot of players, because that would be a lie. But in the sense that those players are very respectful and helpful to others. The only times I seen those "pro" players be rude to newbies, is when those newbies come from other games saying that nexuiz sucks and that they can beat anyone in this game, that does happen from time to time. Those "newbies" rarely stick around more than a couple weeks and usually go back to whatever game they were playing before. Maybe that's bad, but most people's reaction to shit-talk is shit-talking back. Otherwise, to be honest I think have only ever seen ONE player be rude to a newbie without reason and that player is known for his bad attitude. Of course, I'm not on all servers at all times, but from my experience that is how things are and I've played a LOT in the past 2 years.

Note that I am talking about the NA scene, maybe things are different in other parts of the world and other Nexuiz communities.

Anyway I remember having conversations about this with you before, trying to explain to you how the "elitists" playing on scary private servers actually worked hard helping out new players and were not as evil as you seemed to think.

Flying Steel wrote:

Dokujisan wrote:depth of gameplay

this term got me thinking. how are we defining depth of gameplay? cause by my definition, nexuiz really doesn't have any. most people's strategies seem to consist of grabbing the first weapon that comes to hand and shooting at people until they explode. now this is fun and everything, but it could be so much better.

for example, think about variables. right now, it seems to me that all we are doing is changing the weapons damage and fiddling around with a few things like range, but if we wanted REAL balance, all the weapons would do the same damage, same range, same speed, and that just wouldn't be fun at all.

so how about we add some more?

speed:
i have heard people mention that nexuiz is a little too fast. well how about we have weapons effect your speed? guns are heavy, and a big gun is a lot heavier than a small one. so you could have a big, clunky, death-dealing laser that does a lot of damage, but slows you down, so that players with lighter, faster weapons have a slightly better chance of being able to pick you off.

weapon properties:
maybe wielding an energy weapons makes you slightly less (or more) vulnerable to other energy weapons, so you would want to use ballistic weapons against them. not so much that you couldn't still kill someone with an energy weapon, but just enough to make it a little easier.

size:
another thing i have noticed is that all of the weapon sprites are the same size. I think that weapons size should effect how powerful they are, also sacrificing visual range for a more powerful weapon. (I also think that we should experiment with the rocket launcher being an over the shoulder weapon, but that's just me )

we also have to think about how vehicles are going to effect the game play. a friend of mine mentioned that if this game is going to put in vehicles, it should also have some sort of anti-vehicle gun. like a relatively slow firing gun that is easy to dodge when you are on the ground, but not quite as easy in a vehicle. also, maybe redo the turrets a little bit, so instead of just being automatic, you can actually get in and control it manually.

another idea would be EMP weapons, that effect the vehicles electrical systems, making them harder to use/less responsive/totally inoperable. maybe it can depend on the accuracy of the hit. maybe also, the vehicles have weak spots that do more damage when you hit it there.

also, maybe the EMP weapon can effect player weapons too. if you hit a player with it, it deals no damage, or very little, but disables their current weapon, either for a certain amount of time, or maybe permanently, so they have to pick up a new one.

just some things to think about

This is part of a conversation from the dev IRC channel. It might explain a little more of what I mean.

<Dokujisan> I wasn't that impressed with Nexuiz when I first played it (much like Nifrek). I played it for months on occasion just out of boredom. I felt like the game was... "eh...alright" but nothing to write home about. I didn't start REALLY enjoying the game until about a year after first playing it. That is when I started really learning what you can do in the game. <<--- This is what EVERY player wants out of a game. EVERY player...even
<Dokujisan> the casual ones really want a great gaming experience. They just don't realize it yet until it happens
<nifrek> heh, that's sound exactly how I felt Dokujisan
<nifrek> it seemed like a game you play for fun and then you throw away after a while and try something else
<Dokujisan> yeah...so the problem was that I didn't know about all of the advanced things you can do. I had no idea.
<Dokujisan> I was totally oblivious. In fact, I thought I was pretty good at the game a few months into it (coming from my quake experience)...and I really wasn't. I didn't know anything about the game, really.
<Dokujisan> people all the time join the HOCTF server and play for a couple days and then finally ask "hey, how do you guys jump around so high?"
<Dokujisan> Why do they even have to ask that question?
<nifrek> yeah exactly, you play a few months and you end up with best score on public servers, then you get bored because it feels like there's no more progress to do
<lda17h> yeah, nexuiz should have a really prominent tutorial mode
<Dokujisan> 1) design the game around depth of gameplay 2) put forth lots of effort into welcoming new players and getting them to learn the game faster
<Dokujisan> 3) that is how they get hooked
<Dokujisan> I feel that most players give up on nexuiz before even learning the game
<Dokujisan> if you dumb the game down so much to make it easier for them...then there will be nothing for them to learn. There will not be very much depth of gameplay.
<Dokujisan> that is why I think that is the wrong approach.
<Dokujisan> the game should be designed to build a huge base of people who are hooked on the game. You should *want* to turn everyone in an advanced player.

About the speed of the game: actually i dont think so the game is freaking fast because of the movement physics. The real problem is that technically ALL the weapons have such a gigantic push that people are just contantly flying around all the time (especially in a close ranged DM match). If a rocket hits you you fly like 20 meters and thats just absurd, same with the HUGE push of mortar, nex and the laser too. Players are lasering all the time around the map, it gives a very strong push for technically no HP cost. You just get the boost and then flying all over the place on extreme speed spamming with all the weapons that gets in the hand. Maybe for most people its okey, actually i got used to it (not that i would like it), just telling this side not for those who think the game is too fast, well this is the reason in my opinion, the HUGE weapon push

I agree with Dokujisan, its really important to give new players as warm welcome as possibly, trying to show some depth of the game that will encourage them learning these cool stuffs. Its important to show them that there is learning curve in the game not just pressing the forward key and rushing with shotgun primary In the last 2 years i taught at least 12, maybe 15 guys on a seperate server, they were completely new, and i spent 3-4 hours showing them all the basic stuffs, how weapons work, what they are good for, whats bunny hopping, how laser jumping works etc etc etc. And half of them are now frequent players, because they werent ignored, but got a welcome from the community (or just 1 member of the community), they can think "okey there are some nice people around, also i saw there are many cool game i will return for sure". If a new player gets a welcome like "AGY, SUK MI D**K AHAHAHAH))" and stuffs like that he will certainly look for some other game instead.

divVerent wrote:They never help other people in a game, as all they care for is winning.

I'm sorry, but I couldn't let this fly by me. That is incorrect and completely biased. I have helped many players, some of them now regular players. We "pros" aren't afraid of change, but we don't like to see what was once nexuiz to us change for the worse. Worse as in jetpack servers taking over regular unmodified servers (This HAS been changing for the better though) for example. I used to care about winning when I first starting playing this game (wouldn't be surprised if most noobs only cared about that), but as I got better, I really started caring less and less about winning, to where the ONLY thing that mattered was that I played a game and I had fun, regardless of who won.

Yoda almighty wrote:

Dokujisan wrote:depth of gameplay

this term got me thinking. how are we defining depth of gameplay?

I'd really like to know what this means exactly myself.

How is exploiting an ancient glitch like strafe jumping equal to depth of gameplay but sniping someone flying by on a jetpack at 40 meters per second not? Or wasting everyone with the 2.3 machinegun or rocketlauncher or nex?

Francotirador wrote:About the speed of the game: actually i dont think so the game is freaking fast because of the movement physics. The real problem is that technically ALL the weapons have such a gigantic push that people are just contantly flying around all the time (especially in a close ranged DM match).

Personally I have a problem with the opposite- bunny hopping and/or strafe jumping to incredible speeds with no counterbalancing drain on limited health or fuel. You should get to move fast, but not all the time.

I agree about the laser though, it should do more damage both to make it useful as a weapon with the new armor system and to make it cost more to do stunts with it.

Just so you guys now. The Lasers purpose IS to make it easier to move and faster. It's meant to do little damage and push you forward. It isn't meant as a weapon or anything like that. This is one of the most basic principles to Nexuiz, heck, this is what MAKES it Nexuiz.
Laser should never ever be changed to something that hurts you very much or pushes too little.

ai wrote:Just so you guys now. The Lasers purpose IS to make it easier to move and faster. It's meant to do little damage and push you forward. It isn't meant as a weapon or anything like that.

Yes exactly, "IS". That's present tense, but we are talking about the future balance of the game. In the future, maybe people shouldn't be able to get so many laser boosts in a row without dying, that is what we are saying.

Plus, just so you know, the laser IS a weapon, otherwise its primary fire mode would shoot down instead of forward. It is a gun, you are supposed to shoot people with it to hurt them. The jumping is just a very useful secondary feature, that maybe is too useful with the current settings.

This is one of the most basic principles to Nexuiz, heck, this is what MAKES it Nexuiz.

So then as long as the laser is unchanged, you don't care so much if the top running speed is 1 meter per second, there's no bunny hopping and the only weapons available are the laser and shotgun, that'd still be Nexuiz? There's nothing more to this game than laser jumping?

Laser should never ever be changed to something that hurts you very much or pushes too little.

Its damage should be increased by about 50%, that won't hurt you 'very much', it'll just hurt you more.

Hell don't touch the laser / bunny hopping / whatever ! its enough if you "play" with the weapon balance.

a "pro" mod would not be that bad btw! at least we should try like SavegeX said in his post. (read it)

Dokujisan wrote:

divVerent wrote:And if you get feedback from your server - why don't you share it?

Pfft.. I thought I already explained that. Who are we going to share this information with? You? Nobody enjoys talking with you. You are not pleasant to converse with, and you have a tendency to disregard things anyway.

If I were as bad as you'd think, you'd be banned from the forum by now. But I prefer free speech, even if it means that people like you who can't do anything but insult other people are allowed it too.

So all you can do is going ad hominem.

Plus, you never even TRIED to share the information. All you do is complaining here. You can always send the info to the project maintainer, Ixion/m0rfar, if you hate talking to me directly.

Also, as for the stats: they are based on HUMAN behaviour. They are recorded from actual games with actual people. If you had even played on that stats recording server, you'd know that you are getting FORCED to use the HLAC on the server no matter if you want to or not - to exclude the very behaviour you talked about, namely not using a gun because it's "lame".

Also, if you had known me before the Ninjaz appeared, you would have seen me as a much less annoying person. This is because I am getting so pissed off about all the negativity in here (to which you contribute), against which nothing good can be done (the way z would like, namely censorship, is the one thing I absolutely refuse).

@Flying Steel: You and your overly sensitive perspective and comprehension of time. Well then, I'm gonna break this down as simple as I can, and as I'm a very simple dude I think I am able to.

Mmm... donuts.

Anyway.
The Lasers purpose has _always_ been intended to function the way it is now, past, present _and_ future. It has _never_ been intended as weapon. Yes you can use it as a very low damaging weapon but that's just something that comes with the very low health you lose when you use that.
The laser has always been a TOOL, not a weapon (quotes from the devs). And laser has stayed this way, IS this way and SHALL stay this way.
Past, present and future and in all the discovered and undiscovered dimensions, for all time. Eternity if you wish, you know, the never ending. Like, crop circles and bodily functions.

i wanna try and approach this looking at all angles (constructive )

Rifle:secondary may be an appeal for a new player but for both new and advanced i see that it doesnt get used much because you cant tell how far to lead a shot . there are no trails to guage from . also im confused as to what its purpose is in nexuiz , the little nex that could . im just not understanding its advantage . reload gets me killed or i just suck


Hlac: the new player uses it because it is damaging and needs no real aiming skill . pro-gamers feel like it is over powered and generaly not a fun wep to use . also it seems like an MG clone

fire ball : crowd control . i like the idea but i find it slow yet powerful. i would suggest it be very limited somehow . . new players like it for obvious reasons .

ghost items: doesnt matter to me . i think it will help new players learn maps more . all to many times i have seen ppl pass up a spot with a certain item , and then ask " where is ...?"
thumbs up on that idea .

new weps in general : i find that i dont care for most of the new weapons mainly due to its new player catering . i like using old weps because they are effective at mid to long range .
yes they will dominate a new player if used in conjunction with combos , but the fun part is going against someone better than me .
New players are having fun with the new weps until they are up against an advanced player . then the new weps are useless somewhat .
with that said here is my nexuiz background and maybe insight into the mind of the new player learning the ropes .
I started out on hook because i could not move like veterans . over time i became good with weapons and combos . using hook taught me how to lead shots with the nex and rl . i still wasnt that great with weps . so i wanted to learn how to dominate my enemies with wep combos and such .
I began to visit the traditional servers where ppl are just walking all over me whereas if they were on hook i might have a chance . this is where nexuiz got fun for me . I see these guys zipping around without hook at speeds comparable to hook . How do you do that ? ow is you aim so good ? how are you turning like that ?
So over a little time and a few generous players who helped me in the servers i have become one of the top players .
I visited hook and its no fun fun for me anymore . im strictly a traditional moving player now . I dominate the opposition in hook now.

Now with that in mind i would like to point out that at one time what WAS fun no longer isnt .
I think that jet pack , hook , and some new weps , may help get new players and keep them . but , if they do not graduate to a more skilled level then , advanced players wont have any clan matches to play anymore because its the same ppl over and over . I hope new players want to learn thier potential , but for now i see the new additions to nexuiz will make them take longer .

new weps and items are good for attracting and keeping ppl . But the veterans need a way to keep exhisting players interested in becomming better . this way we all have a circulation of fresh gibs to eat .

i hope this was constructive and creates some brainstorming

I have stayed out of this thread so far but I can no longer resist. I wish we could stop the mud slinging though, that's really below the level of all of us.

So anyway, a major factor for the upcoming and already applied changes have to do with the fact that Nexuiz is downloaded by so many people yet only a handful sticks around. I would like to know how these numbers relate to other free games out there. How do Open Arena, Warsow, etc compare to these figures? Do we know this, should we try to find out? Is it pretty much the same ratio there? Then this is not a Nexuiz specific problem (and maybe has more to do with what I mentioned before, it's free so let's download it) and it would be crazy to change the game for this reason alone.

If it is Nexuiz specific, is changing the game to be completely noob-friendly really the best way to improve this? And should you even want this? Is it more important to be a unique game that apparently only appeals to a limited number of people (it has survived so far) or more important to have a more mainstreamish game that more people might play?

One of the complaints you read by close minded people (who have maybe played Nexuiz once 4 years ago) is that it's 'just another Quake clone'. The thing is, will you make them right about this? And do you seriously think it will convince those people to start playing it? Should you go for numbers, or for character?

Have these decisions been made, what were the arguments?

So far for the 'noobs'. Now about the 'pro's':

Nexuiz keeps developing and reinventing itself. It's not a game that is released commercially and then, barring bug fixes, stays pretty much the same throughout its life cycle. This means that any 'pro' who wants to play, become good and stay good will have a rough time. Because every time you have sorted out a way for the movement physics or the weapon balance to work in your favour, a new version will come along that will change some or all of the characteristics, making much of what you knew and could do before, next to useless.

What does the dev team find more important? Constant reinvention, adding features and removing them as they go along for as long as there is Nexuiz? Or should the game at some point be 'stable' and not change a lot anymore?

@grasshopper:

As for the rifle: there is an experimental change to disable reload, and instead give the secondary a cooldown. This reduces the required skill to use the rifle without making the rifle much stronger (as the reload is no issue if you control it properly). The reload feature will stay in the code, and many will keep it enabled on the server. You may even expect medieval-style maps to re-enable the reload feature via mapinfo.

As for HLAC: solved in the 2.6 balance. It is more exact, and fires slower. You may however ask what its purpose is then. To me, in the 2.6 balance the main purpose of the HLAC is the secondary, which somewhat works better to hit a player fully with than the Crylink. I am not happy with its primary though, it simply lost its usefulness, and became just another Hagar/MG.

As for fireball: I still am not sure about the right detonation radius for it. It may have to be lowered still. Damage values seem fine now, though. I just made a change of the damage focus - now it's more important to do a direct hit, and less to rely on the long-range effect of the fireball.

ai wrote:@Flying Steel: You and your overly sensitive perspective and comprehension of time. Well then, I'm gonna break this down as simple as I can, and as I'm a very simple dude I think I am able to.

You and your gross absolutism and stubborness to even think about any kind of change, no matter how small.

Mmm... donuts.

Yes, donuts are good.

Anyway.
The Lasers purpose has _always_ been intended to function the way it is now, past, present _and_ future. It has _never_ been intended as weapon. Yes you can use it as a very low damaging weapon but that's just something that comes with the very low health you lose when you use that.

Intents can change. The 2.5.1 Havoc laser was an obvious attempt at increasing its effectiveness as a backup weapon. The execution just was off, the laser does not work well as a repeater, methinks.

And it is a backup weapon too, because it requires no ammo- no other weapon has this feature. The shotgun is also extremely range limited, even when you have shells left.

The laser has always been a TOOL, not a weapon (quotes from the devs). And laser has stayed this way, IS this way and SHALL stay this way.

Using all caps doesn't make your prophecy any more sound.

Past, present and future and in all the discovered and undiscovered dimensions, for all time. Eternity if you wish, you know, the never ending. Like, crop circles and bodily functions.

This, on the other hand, makes for an ironclad prophecy.

divVerent wrote:As for HLAC: solved in the 2.6 balance. It is more exact, and fires slower. You may however ask what its purpose is then. To me, in the 2.6 balance the main purpose of the HLAC is the secondary, which somewhat works better to hit a player fully with than the Crylink. I am not happy with its primary though, it simply lost its usefulness, and became just another Hagar/MG.

I agree, the HLAC lost both its refire and its spread growth (practically). Couldn't its per-shot damage have been reduced instead? Because before it was better at long and close ranged fighting than the hagar, but worse at medium, which was an interesting balance I thought.

I also agree on the secondary though, it seems like it is now solidly useful, like it was in 2.5 beta (IIRC). But it is so much more useful than the primary, that it makes it so you should only use the secondary unless in a very long ranged fight.

The HLAC's high spread was extremely annoying, which leaves only the fire rate to discuss. And yes, there I also liked the faster one.

Anyone notice that HLAC secondary is far better for jumping than actually killing people? That's all I ever use it for.

divVerent wrote:The HLAC's high spread was extremely annoying, which leaves only the fire rate to discuss. And yes, there I also liked the faster one.

Well I just used "short controlled bursts" with the HLAC wich worked well with its spread growth (the spread being extrememly minimal for the first 4-6 shots).

But if that's off the table, could it have a heat-build-up like one of the Halo plasma guns, where if you fire it for too long without a rest it has to cool down? Kind of the like the reload on the Rifle.

Either way, it still seems like the fire rate could be kept high if the damage and edge damage were brought down. Then it'd occupy a role somewhere between the MG and Hagar, with the with a fire rate and speed closer to the former and blast radius and close in damage (from the secondary) similar to the later.

I'm absolutely for the idea of the heating camping rifle, thats much less distracting than reloading, there should be however some cool indicator that shows that its heated up even after you switch to another weapon and back and its still too warm and not ready to use yet. Or it could be cool in combination with the "heat-vision" we were talking about, so people either spam with it, or either look through wall for a second and shoot only 1-2. That would be 2 new (and absolutely unique) function hit by once.

There were some discussions earlier about hagar secondary to change to proximity mines, that would be huge fun too, anyone likes this idea? Hagar would be finally very usable for attacking and defending, just like mortar and (the future) RL.

About HLAC: nexuiz really shouldnt include another hagar that uses cell ammo I think... HLAC is just totally not unique weapon at all, it should have a function that distinguishes it from the other weapons MUCH more. How about adding HLAC secondary a Lightning gun-like function? Yeah I know machinegun is supposed to be something like LG in Nexuiz, but it would be still quite unique this way in my opinion. It would even make sense, since its an energy/laser weapon. Of course shaft can only work well with a proper antilag Ohhhhh yeah, and its Heavy Laser ASSAULT Cannon, shaft-like weapons are only good for attacking, so in this meaning it would make more sense too

PinkRobot wrote:I would like to know how these numbers relate to other free games out there. How do Open Arena, Warsow, etc compare to these figures?

Warsow:

goochie wrote:Hard to tell, lots of mirrors.

kiki wrote:average of 4400 unique players/day (double of 0.4)

tundramagi wrote:FrAnCorPharIorARrArR!

LOL

tundramagi wrote:Maybe give the halac secondary more beams, more damage, etc, so it can be what tZork wanted it to be?

I am not against the damage or refire of the HLAC secondary but against the original idea, its pretty much just a shotgun. Im telling these ideas because there are several weapon functions that are just not unique enough, or dont distinguish from eachother enough.

@Flying: I go by the rule: 'Don't fix what isn't broken.' The laser isn't broken hence no need to fix it. You just want to change stuff for the sole purpose of changing stuff.
Btw, I used caps to more clearly visualize what I meant. Sure, visions can change, however, the vision in case of laser hasn't changed, nor shall it.

I know you just want to make Nexuiz what you want it to be cause you're apparently too lazy to fork your own and change stuff. I know other people agree with me to not change the laser, so, it's more people against than for.
I am an old school player, I am for changing Nexuiz, but not changing it so that it sucks or completely take away why I play Nexuiz in the first place.

The reason why I am against most of your ideas is that most of your ideas kills Nexuiz as we know it to create something totally different. You seem to have no respect whatsoever for what it was and is and just focus on what it "should" be. And you disregard all the people who love Nexuiz the way has been since the very beginning (with some changes here and there of course). Basically saying "Screw them! It's time for new era!".
This kind of attitude is just plain wrong and as you noticed, I'm not a fan of. You say I'm stubborn? You don't even listen to anything I've said, not even critique to your work so that you could learn and make it better. You're the stubborn here and also rather arrogant to be honest.
And also, just because I'm against your ideas you actually try to insult me, trying to make it personal. None of my disputes with your ideas has anything to do with you personally, if you were mature enough you would have known that.

Attacking people personally just because they disagrees with your ideas, and jump into bed with the ones who likes them, that's called arrogance.

ai wrote:@Flying: I go by the rule: 'Don't fix what isn't broken.' The laser isn't broken hence no need to fix it.

The ability to hold on to more hitpoints without rot in 2.6 balance breaks the laser as it has always been- a weapon that can actually kill people. It might also make speeds possible that require what some feel are overpowered weapons like the old Nex to be used as a counterbalance to lone gun, lightspeed flag captures and such.

Whether or not that means it is broken, it doesn't really matter if it can be improved.

You just want to change stuff for the sole purpose of changing stuff.

I want to see if there is a better way, run experiments of different sizes and ask questions, not say 'this is how it was, this is how it must always be or else it sucks'.

Btw, I used caps to more clearly visualize what I meant.

You were using caps and other methods to make an ABSOLUTE POSITION THAT SHOULD NOT BE QUESTIONED. I prefer to use specific values and settings to communicate specific possible changes or alternatives. Like what if the laser did 50 instead of 35 damage or fall damage started to take place at 30 MPS instead of 40 MPS. But you just ignore these without considering them.

Sure, visions can change, however, the vision in case of laser hasn't changed, nor shall it.

It probably won't change altogether, but it could also very well evolve.

So sure, it'll still be used for mobility and I want this to continue. But that doesn't mean this much mobility and this little usefulness as a backup weapon.

I know you just want to make Nexuiz what you want it to be cause you're apparently too lazy to fork your own and change stuff.

The same option is open to you. Or you could play older versions. But you are not lazy for not doing that, and neither am I.

I know other people agree with me to not change the laser, so, it's more people against than for.

Leaving aside the fact you are not a telepath, if a majority of forum users are with you on this, then that could still not matter if the devs decide a new direction and/or it is more popular with the flow of new players. Open discussion can help make the best of what maybe is going to happen anyway.

The reason why I am against most of your ideas is that most of your ideas kills Nexuiz as we know it to create something totally different.

Why do you insist on this kind of drama? A slight damage boost to the laser would kill everything the game is? A slight boost to fall damage would kill it?

You seem to have no respect whatsoever for what it was and is and just focus on what it "should" be. And you disregard all the people who love Nexuiz the way has been since the very beginning (with some changes here and there of course). Basically saying "Screw them! It's time for new era!".

This kind of attitude is just plain wrong and as you noticed, I'm not a fan of.

It's not your place to make gross assumptions about what I'm about and then go around sending threads off topic, flaming me with wise-ass comments. This viewpoint of yours is the source of this whole conflict. You have developed an attitude against me and now every time I say something, you respond to me rather than what I said. Which is fine if you did it via PM, like I suggested.

For example, you really think I want to get off this forum and play call of duty? Well then by that logic I should assume that you want to get off this forum and play Nexuiz 1.0. But this obviously isn't the case or else we wouldn't be here, so don't keep making these wise-ass observations unless your goal is to be insulting or annoying (which is what it seems to me).

So this kind of crusader attitude of yours I find to be just plain wrong, and I am not a fan of it.

You say I'm stubborn? You don't even listen to anything I've said, not even critique to your work so that you could learn and make it better. You're the stubborn here and also rather arrogant to be honest.

This is unrelated, you can verbally blast my content concepts to pieces, I don't care, your flaming of me on topics like this is what is in bad form.

What you are probably doing here is combining two unrelated events into a greater, darker vision of me that fuels your reactions. I don't share your vision of Nexuiz art style, if it even has one at the moment, and I am open to changes to the game's physics, so therefore I am a threat to the game's direction and success and only you can thwart my evilness.

And also, just because I'm against your ideas you actually try to insult me, trying to make it personal. None of my disputes with your ideas has anything to do with you personally, if you were mature enough you would have known that.

Since you possess such maturity, maybe you could calmly look at how you've responded to my posts recently. See which one of us was the first to start the insulting language.

Attacking people personally just because they disagrees with your ideas, and jump into bed with the ones who likes them, that's called arrogance.

It must be a big bed, because it looks like it includes everyone besides you. You are the only one who keeps dragging me into these little flame wars, I have no quarrel with anyone else on these forums. You are the only one who can't keep a disagreement civil (with me).

Flying Steel wrote:... Like what if the laser did 50 instead of 35 damage ...

The 35 damage that the Laser does is quite significant, it has historically been better than the average for the shotgun primary, shot for shot.

But the real advantages that Laser holds over every other weapon is its zero-spread, highest-speed, ammo-less, high-force splash, perfect for juggling anyone anywhere, including snipers.

TVR wrote:

Flying Steel wrote:... Like what if the laser did 50 instead of 35 damage ...

The 35 damage that the Laser does is quite significant, it has historically been better than the average for the shotgun primary, shot for shot.

But the real advantages that Laser holds over every other weapon is its zero-spread, highest-speed, ammo-less, high-force splash, perfect for juggling anyone anywhere, including snipers.

I agree, when players have 100 armor and 100 health, no rot.

But the 2.6 balance is on course to move that to 200 armor and 100 health as the max without rot, which I am perfectly fine with, but then the laser needs a corresponding boost for it to hold its place, like alot of the other weapons have received it seems to me.

Alternatively, I'd suggest making the 2.6 laser primary do 100 damage that falls off quickly with range to 50 and then to 25 or so.

I think this would also go well with the shotgun damage/ammo increase it sounded like you were suggesting earlier, and that kojak/kojun (can't always keep them straight ) Alien? and myself I believe are also for.

Basically, if the laser was just a tad more like the shotgun, in being more powerful at close range (but still good at messing up snipers with push) then the shotgun could run out of ammo much faster and we wouldn't rely on it as much as a backup weapon.

Flying steel has touched a good point . How do we keep players after the download . I see the devs trying new things which is good . They are simply working toward figuring out what keeps the interests peaked . I also think that the focus of that should get more attention . After all thats what we all want anyway . Is it the graphics ? is it new weapons ? is it game modes ?
I have found that when i play On HOCTF that there has been a recent surge of new players . They have many questions about the game and want to learn . I have seen that when you help them they also stick around . I have taken some new players off to private servers and shown them how to aim , laser jump , strafe , bunny hop , etc . once they find out how to work the game it becomes easier for them and they have more fun . In turn they reciprocate the same for another new player .
The devs are trying hard with weps and new features , good job fellas . But i think it has come down to the advanced players to teach our new friends . We cannot rely solely on the dev's ideas to attract and keep players . It is our duty as a community and as players to help the new

little off topic sry