Just to make absolutely clear the intention of this post: an argument heard frequently over the last few weeks as to why Nexuiz has to change and become more noob-friendly is that the total times it has been downloaded is huge and yet the player count is pretty low.

Mirio thanks for your response. I will leave Warsow aside for a moment and I did some research for myself taking Open Arena and Tremulous to compare Nexuiz with.

First of all: I need better player statistics. unique players during one whole day would be good. I will need to check for a way to find this data for all games. That will come later, but here is a first indication.

So anyway.

Player counts:

At about 9 PM here I compared the number of players playing on public Nexuiz servers with the number playing on public Open Arena servers and public Tremulous servers (using dpmaster.deathmask.net).

There were around 100 players playing Nexuiz;

There were around 110 players playing Open Arena;

There were around 320 players playing Tremulous.

Game downloads:

Nexuiz 2.5.1 is mainly downloaded from SourceForge and the download counter there is at about 146,000 downloads.

Open Arena has several mirrors, 6 are listed on their website. Only 4 of those supply viewable download statistics. I added those 4 up and came to 133,000 downloads for Open Arena 0.8.1. I will disregard the 2 mirrors because I don't have statistics (considering the second one in their list has even a direct download, it would not surprise me if the actual number of downloads would far exceed the 150,000 mark).

Thankfully Tremulous is also hosted at SourceForge. Adding up the numbers for the Windows, Linux and combined downloads for Tremulous 1.1.0, we reach a pretty staggering 1,418,000.

Again, I do realize that only looking during one night in one timezone is not the most failsafe approach, but for the moment it will have to do. Let's calculate the ratio on the current numbers (leaving the 2 remaining OA mirrors aside for the moment).

Nexuiz has a score of 1460 downloads per public player at time of counting.
Open Arena has a score of 1209 downloads per public player at time of counting.
Tremulous has a score of 4431 downloads per public player at time of counting.

Pretty rudimentary results so far, it's late and I need to go to bed. I will return to this later to hopefully include more free games and more reliable player number statistics. Having said that, my current conclusion is that IF Nexuiz indeed has a problem, then most likely Open Arena has it too. And Tremulous should probably just be dumped in the North Sea altogether

The discussion is going nowhere (about "pro" vs "newbie"), I think the way to go would be with SavageX's suggestions, if all other devs agree with it.

Personnaly I already like the 2.6 balance even if work on them only just started, I played a few times with them and other than a few inconsistencies and we played a quick ctf match yesterday and nobody complained afaik, it's quite good already and still being worked on. So I am interested in seeing where this is going, but having a "classic" or "pro" mode should be worked on too because the 2.6 balance is completely different than what we currently have and it's obvious a lot of current players won't want to adapt. But for this to work, this "pro" mode or whatever it would be called (I think "Classic" would be better), would need to be official, not some cfg that people download externally and install on their server. Meaning, like SavageX suggested, it needs to come with Nexuiz and be visible to players browsing servers in some way.

I also think nexuiz needs server cfg templates to run specific game mode by simple exec'ing a cfg. Ie: regular duel, ctf, tdm, minsta, etc. with or without tourney mode. That way, we could then have a way to filter servers that use custom settings or not, as was discussed some time ago in a different thread. Right now it would be confusing to run a 3v3ctf server with tourney mode publicly because of maxplayers showing 18 when only 6 players can play at a time. I know it's possible to add that info to server name but that still is confusing when changing gamemodes by vote, master server won't update right away with that info. Competitive servers and regular public servers need to stop being a seperate thing, I mean private servers will always exist but it should be normal to have tourney servers public too where players can play more serious games without finding out about some obscure irc channel to join or being invited after 3 months of playing. That would take care of players coming from other fps, they wouldn't just see 2 or 3 public servers they see in server list at all time and nothing else.

Contrary to poplar belief, newbies are more than welcome to join in pickups with more advanced players, but as of yet there is no way for this to happen easily and that creates a split in communities.

Regarding Nexuiz Style... I've been told that Nexuiz started out as an industrial style game (similar to quake) but then the focus of style has changed to a futuristic space style game. With this style in mind...

I m also going to give my honest opinion:

If divo is indeed (i think he is) the main (almost sole) coder/developer of the game, and he is not earning money out of it, but rather doing it cause its his hobby or such, i wouldnt care less if he coded shitting rabbits or puking vultures flying around causing damage if that was fun FOR HIM. after all , its his damn work, he has his own fun (hope he still has) out of it. What is sincerely fun for him (like the tuba looked like) is going to be fun for most of other people as well. That's my sincere point of view. If i were Div0 and was NOT earning my daily payroll on this project, i would do whatever i liked. Not giving the slightest piece of attention to what other;s regarded "correct" or not.
I know this sounds a bit absolute, but one thing is doing something for you own entertainment, and another being bullied by "community" voices into other things.

Flying Steel wrote:.. 200 armor and 100 health as the max ...

100 armour is a commodity, it is improbable to find two in a row on any map, as every stock DM map, with the exception of Diesel Power & Bleach, only have one at most.

Flying Steel wrote:.. I'd suggest making the 2.6 laser primary do 100 damage that falls off quickly ... rely on it as much as a backup weapon ...

100 damage is sufficient to displace the shotgun completely, with all the previously mentioned qualities.

Laser is designed as escape tool, it can be used for laser-jumps and to disorient pursuers, which allows one to find ammo for a more useful weapon.

Um, as my memory sucks I already forgot what you wrote Flying (and don't want to reread it). But I've said it before and will say it one last time. You have gotten a picture of me that I actually dislike you because I disagree with your ideas. Because I mostly dislike those ideas you think I'm attacking you personally which isn't true. I have never insulted you, if you think I did that then you're too sensitive (above average).

If you come with an idea that actually respects as to what Nexuiz has always been instead of ignoring everything altogether then I might agree with that idea.
However, ultimately, you have already formed an image of me so no matter what I say you won't believe me. I couldn't care less (nor do I wish to argue against that), but if in future you propose something and I disagree with it (I don't automatically disagree with your ideas just because they are yours, as you seem to believe), don't believe I'm doing that to attack you.

But you need to understand and to respect the older Nexuiz and all their players who enjoy that, instead of ignoring everything Nexuiz has been up till now just because you disagree with it. If you can't do that, then that's very immature.

--
Now explaining more what the laser actually is. As I've mentioned (and TVR), it is a tool. It isn't meant, nor is meant to be a secondary weapon. If it can be used as a secondary weapon then that's just a feature. If ammo for shotgun disappears too quickly add more starting ammo, if it's too much remove some starting ammo.
The shotgun is meant as a weapon, not the laser. The reason why you have just one (rather weak) starting weapon is so that you need an incentive to pick up a better one. If ammo is used up too quickly then you need just need to get some better weapons. Now, the laser exists to help you do that, not really help you kill people (even though it can).
Use the laser on your opponents to disorient them and push them away. This is the sole purpose of the laser, again as a tool, not a weapon.

TVR wrote:

Flying Steel wrote:.. 200 armor and 100 health as the max ...

100 armour is a commodity, it is improbable to find two in a row on any map, as every stock DM map, with the exception of Diesel Power & Bleach, only have one at most.

Well just try playing on the test server, you might find like I did that getting up to and staying around 200 is really easy when there is no rot. There's just alot of armor around on the standard levels, if you don't count only the 100 packs.

Flying Steel wrote:.. I'd suggest making the 2.6 laser primary do 100 damage that falls off quickly ... rely on it as much as a backup weapon ...

100 damage is sufficient to displace the shotgun completely, with all the previously mentioned qualities.

Think of it as a melee attack, because that's what is ment to be for the most part (the 100 damage I mean). It should do half that much damage after about 4 to 10 meters. Granted, that could still replace the current shotgun, but that's because the shotgun does too little damage and uses way too little ammo. And changing the former already appears to be a goal of 2.6.

And this wouldn't affect the secondary fire, which is for jumping.

Laser is designed as escape tool, it can be used for laser-jumps and to disorient pursuers, which allows one to find ammo for a more useful weapon.

IMO, it would still function very well as such a device.



AI: I have used the laser in all the ways you mentioned, in addition to this one (directly lethal weapon) a great many times. But for the reasons listed above I think it's usage in this way has been undermined unintentionally, so it needs a boost to maintain its current balance at least, going into 2.6.

The off topic stuff I'll respond to via PM, so as not to derail this topic anymore.

Dokujisan wrote:yeah, it's a lengthy post, but read it anyway...


Regarding Nexuiz Style... I've been told that Nexuiz started out as an industrial style game (similar to quake) but then the focus of style has changed to a futuristic space style game. With this style in mind...

Imho the weapons fit into the Nexuiz style just fine. Nexuiz combines both human and alien technology. Many Sci-FI shows / movies combine both traditional and futuristic weapons. (Firefly, Stargate, District 9).

Oh , And I want to thank you for your Nexuiz servers. HODM and HOCTF

SavageX wrote:Well... from my point of view as co-leader: I share the view that apparently currently something is broken with the game and I *welcome* shifting towards a "friendly to new players" tuning.

While I can absolutely see this may upset some players (and I'm sorry for that) I'd hope we could simply try things out without being crucified beforehand (nah, that's too strong a wording, but you get the idea).

What I don't get is that apparently nobody realizes that weapon balance is something easily changed by some cvars and that the "pro community" could simply provide something fitting their needs that fits like a glove - that'd be a really simple mod. That'd be constructive and I'd even vote for including it with Nexuiz and e.g. give it a different color in the server browser (if possible).

So if the "pro community" can actually decide on something they like that could be something constructive. If most servers would happen to use that mod... well, that'd be some sort of community vote, too.

We can have the pony AND the cake.

I like this idea.

As far as keeping new players

I think many of the new players are turned off by some of the inconsiderate jerks playing the game. I am sick of seeing severely unbalanced games where one team is mostly newer player and the other is all experienced players and players manually joining the better team, Teams running up the score and sniping the hell out of the other team.

Can you image how you a new player feels playing mentalspace and is getting sniped as soon as he spawns 20 times in a row.

There are a lot of awesomly good and friendly players in Nexuiz. However I'm noticing a lot more arrogant jerks too!

They talk down to less skilled players, call there teammates idiots or losers if things don't go there way, They manually join the best team. They snipe the heck out of newbies. They pound their chest and tell everyone how fricken l33t they are. WTF

Lately I've even noticed ppl playing just to team kill or spam
Where are all these bad apples coming from?

tundramagi wrote:I find that the best way to play Nexuiz is to make maps for Nexuiz.

When I do play online I do a terrible job of supporting my team, I fail to make it past the lowest 2 players on the scoreboard, and then I pound my chest (very hardly) about how I "PWNDDDD" everyone else and they SUCK!!!! (even though I'm the worst player).

I also lazer teammates into the void, lol.
Sometimes it takes awhile for people to realize I'm TKing. LOL
Oh, and I often try to distrupt my team's flag carrier, that's alot of fun because it's hard.
If I get my flag carrier into the void: anti-point for me!

Goddamn you're a pro if I've ever seen one!

vomit wrote:I think many of the new players are turned off by some of the inconsiderate jerks playing the game. I am sick of seeing severely unbalanced games where one team is mostly newer player and the other is all experienced players and players manually joining the better team, Teams running up the score and sniping the hell out of the other team.

They talk down to less skilled players, call there teammates idiots or losers if things don't go there way, They manually join the best team. They snipe the heck out of newbies. They pound their chest and tell everyone how fricken l33t they are. WTF

Lately I've even noticed ppl playing just to team kill or spam
Where are all these bad apples coming from?

Hmm. Seriously I want names or I won't believe this. What "experienced" players join the winning team ON PURPOSE? What experienced players are talking down on less skilled players? This is horrible and if true, those players need to be dealt with. And what servers did this happen? If you can, can you post demos? Don't be scared to say names, I think this is serious.

Also, I'm not sure what you think is an experienced player, you will have to explain. The guys with a lot of points aren't always the most skilled/experienced players on the server.

The part about sniping, that is the maps fault, nothing can be done about it other than not voting for those maps which are in fact, believe it or not, usually more voted for by the less experienced players than the more experienced players.

And you have to understand that there's almost no way, currently, to have fair teams on public servers. When it happens, it is often more by luck than anything else. Some servers try to fix that by not allowing you to pick a team and is balanced by number of players, but what happens then is that an experienced player ends up being forced to join winning team because due to number of players, he's not allowed to join losing one OR switch to it for the same reason during a match. This happens to me a lot, sometimes I'll stay spectator but I'm also here to have fun so yes, sometimes I don't have the CHOICE but to join winning team, I'll switch when it's actually possible switch, but that's not always the case.

Some servers allow you to pick the team you want, but that also doesn't always work either because one team might end up with 10 players and the other team 6 players because some players are trying to balance teams. Then you have many players switching teams trying to balance the teams. You end up not really playing a match at all, you're just checking scoreboard to see if teams are balanced. How do you organize/plan that? How do you balance teams when you don't have any sort of control?

Flying Steel wrote:Well just try playing on the test server, you might find like I did that getting up to and staying around 200 is really easy when there is no rot. There's just alot of armor around on the standard levels, if you don't count only the 100 packs.

I have to revoke this; apparently the hitpoint system was just rebalanced again on the test server so that now armor is hard-capped at 100 and health rots immediately until it gets to 100, leaving only enough time for maybe an extra laser jump or two. This new change makes weapons more lethal, instead of less.

I do that stuff. I'm not skilled, I am experianced though. I do all that stuff (other than winning).
Deal with me.

/mikeestyle-trolling mode ON

tundragami,

This is amusing, you are trolling by trying to provoke people, and then you wonder why your posts get deleted. About the "experienced player" thing, if you are shittalking but play like any other newbie or inexperienced player even tho you say you are experienced, then that's not the problem I was referring to, you're just some guy nobody cares about, shittalking and trolling on a server just to annoy people. That's a completely different thing and nothing can be done about it other than ignoring those people.

Also, just to point out, if you talk down on newbies then you are also part of the problem of newbies trying the game and leaving because they think nexuiz players, experienced or not, are rude. So good job helping ruin this game for newbies and being part of the problem. If you care that much about nexuiz and keep saying people shouldn't whine about changes in the game, but you're then going behind the devs backs shitting on new players while the devs are adding features to the game trying to ATTRACT NEW PLAYERS AND MAKING THEM INTERESTED IN STICKING TO THE GAME, this is simply contradictory. How does that make ANY sense? How can anyone then take you seriously when you are trying to defend the devs? Or seriously at all for anything you say? You're one of the people making players leave this game, do you want Nexuiz to die? Well, good job.

/mikeestyle-trolling mode OFF

Don't know why you are sending me private messages but sure, I'll be dealing with you by ignoring you. Bye.

Personally i love nexuiz, but i should say, that weapons balance should try to resemble ql weapons balance (i'm not suggesting copying or other shit, i just say in ql the balance is great u have a queen weapon and a king weapon but depending on occasions u can use others and be more effective).. as for example i saw on new servers with better antilag, mg and sg are great!

Btw i don't get the point in saying: close range sg is too powerful! a secondary fire hit mows u down... well this is sg's point, beeing tremendously powerful in close combat, there is no sense in playing shooting each other for hours before a frag happens so i don't get the point in all this chatting about weapons power. A weapon is meant to kill, not to cure, imho its obvious that a close range 3 sg shot could slaughter u. (BTW as demonstration of what i'm saying about useless wep is when i see a lot of players that, when starting a map, throw away their shotgun).

So it would be better to have balanced weapons ( by balanced i mean a weapon good for each occasion) rather than new spam weapons as HLAC or TAG, which are obviously noob side weapons (cuz they prevent players from doing combos which are very stylish ).

SinSniper wrote:Btw i don't get the point in saying: close range sg is too powerful!

I think I wrote it all down in this thread on Page 2 (Posted: Thu May 14, 2009 9:32 am). I never played a 3d game with such a strong _start_ weapon/combo. Keep in mind that you dont have to pick up the SG.

Would be nice bundy for you to make a 'I'm back' Thread

Bundy wrote:I think I wrote it all down in this thread on Page 2 (Posted: Thu May 14, 2009 9:32 am). I never played a 3d game with such a strong _start_ weapon/combo. Keep in mind that you dont have to pick up the SG.

I would like to quote the seemingly popular consensus on that thread, which I still fully agree is the way to fix the shotgun both ways (not too underpowered for lordhavoc and not annoying to people who don't like powerful starting weapons):

Alien wrote:

k0jak wrote:

I think the best balance would be to make the shotgun just as powerful in its own right as the other weapons, but also have it consume ammo at a comparable rate and only spawn with one pickup's worth of ammo for it. Then your extra incentive to find a new weapon is because you only have so few shots with your starting loadout (unless you're good with the laser).

Yes i was just thinking about this now actually before i read your post

This is the best idea, reduce the starting ammo to something not very high, like you say so the incentive is to go get other weapons, good call

PEOPLE LISTEN TO THEM FINALLY! Make shotgun separate weapon leaving laser solo weapon and implement 3secs spawn protection (yes, this was discussed before 2 or more times already). Shotgun should be as UT flack cannon - best weapon in close range - way better than shock rifle.

Crylink is the worst example possible. If we make all weapons spam, block view and reduce speed, we would rather stick with 2.3 and useless crylink instead.

Agama wrote:

Flying Steel wrote:
That's correct, it isn't hitscan, hitscan weapons are being phased out, I forget why. It seems that the rifle is going to be the new sniper weapon. Look at the changes for the Nex on the roadmap. I think it is getting damage-range falloff, which might start to make it less of a sniper weapon. Unless the falloff is reversed, like with the alien sniper gun from Halo (Particle Rifle? can't remember the name).

For the theme of nexuiz, I don't really imagine bullets in a futuristic alien game. And last time I checked what it said was on the front page "Simple, fast, intense.....". There shouldn't really be a "sniper weapon" its a hitscan weapon. Nexuiz isn't a game where you sit in a corner and try and get almost impossible headshots on people with the rifle while they are moving insanely fast around you. The Nex right now is completely fine as it is and fits nexuiz's style almost the best.

Actually, if we had a sniper-rifle that had a re-fire rate and damage system similar to UT then i'd be all for it, I was quite bad with that weapon in UT but i'm getting better with it.

Fires very fast, so it's almost like hitscan unless you have a low ping then it really is...but something like that in these new nexuiz changes that will be coming down the line would be cool, if you had headshots though the current model would need to have a bigger hitscan area, and the weapon would have to be faster/better then the camping rifle..

Oh and I also have no problem with the nexgun either agama, but i'd be for a sniper rifle if it worked decently.

Out of all the weapons, I love it how no one ever mentions the laser, ANOTHER starting weapon with SG, fast-refire, can do quite a lot of damage, has way too much force..I wouldn't mind if it actually took some skill to laser up to somewhere, similar to a electro jump or Impact Hammer jump like in UT, but no, it's just fly all over the place...for CTF it's great, but it ruins the other game-modes at times like TDM and 1on1 because it breaks maps due to the ability to laser everywhere, high ground for example, people can just laser up and fall back down and laser back up again fall back down etc.

Why do we keep having these proper long threads anyway?

We'll get new weapons and people will want to rebalance them further, I can see how after LordHavoc explained in his post on a previous thread about bringing over the havoc changes and I don't mind this, because he gave a good explanation and I do think we could do with some better weapon usage and hopefully re-invent nexuiz and attract a new crowd...but sometimes I think as soon as someone who has a higher skill set then other players, then the screams of weapon balance come flying out, yes some are/were not balanced as well before, some now have gone to pot due to previous changes, so I welcome the new havoc changes when they come...You know 2-3 years ago we never had such threads like this

If antilag gets fixed on bullets and camping rifle will be finally usable, it would make nicer balance to have a weapon thats only usable on long range, and and nex would turn into rather a mid-range weapon, or at least would be less usable on long range than camping rifle. Also the wall penetration bullets should get much more focus with camping rifle, because its a really unique feature comparing to other games.

FraNcoTirAdoR wrote:About the speed of the game: actually i dont think so the game is freaking fast because of the movement physics. The real problem is that technically ALL the weapons have such a gigantic push that people are just contantly flying around all the time (especially in a close ranged DM match). If a rocket hits you you fly like 20 meters and thats just absurd, same with the HUGE push of mortar, nex and the laser too. Players are lasering all the time around the map, it gives a very strong push for technically no HP cost. You just get the boost and then flying all over the place on extreme speed spamming with all the weapons that gets in the hand. Maybe for most people its okey, actually i got used to it (not that i would like it), just telling this side not for those who think the game is too fast, well this is the reason in my opinion, the HUGE weapon push

Exactly, I did raise this up a long time ago but was told 'that's what nexuiz is'

Force is ridiculously HUGE, ever since I first started to play

The Laser as been deemed an 'enjoyable feature'.

Which is why it is the only thing that hasn't changed since 1.1.

TVR wrote:The Laser as been deemed an 'enjoyable feature'.

Which is why it is the only thing that hasn't changed since 1.1.

But deemed so by who?

(I am assuming we're still talking about just the laser's force/damage settings here.)

Given Esteel being the most active developer back during 1.x, I'll assume he changed the settings to make Laser-jumping easier after C.Brutail discovered it.

But it's implied all developers, Vermeulen, and LordHavoc support it, otherwise there would have been earlier changes.

TVR wrote:But it's implied all developers, Vermeulen, and LordHavoc support it, otherwise there would have been earlier changes.

That's possible because alot of overhauling has been recently experimented with for the other weapons, while the laser only become better for jumping with its new secondary (a really cool feature I have to say).

But it could also be they are working their way over to it or want to wait to see how things pan out with all of the changes 2.5 and 2.6 will have made. They might also be under the impression that the laser's current settings are more popular than they actually are.

Bundy wrote:

SinSniper wrote:Btw i don't get the point in saying: close range sg is too powerful!

I think I wrote it all down in this thread on Page 2 (Posted: Thu May 14, 2009 9:32 am). I never played a 3d game with such a strong _start_ weapon/combo. Keep in mind that you dont have to pick up the SG.

i think that at this point its fine to have sg powerful from beginning, a part from top players this would prevent medium players to jump on u when spawned shooting rockets like mad but keep them to mid range avoiding constant spawn frag

Imho the largest problem with the weapons are that there are only 4 types of ammo: rockets, bullets, cells, and shells. If you pick up the electro or the crylink, you already have ammo for the Nex. Same with hagar/mortar/RL.

I know it'd be a hell lot of work (I could help in that now that I have a good pc that can compile maps in good speed), but I still think that at least the Nex should use a different ammo type. That'd help the overpowered issue a lot, because you'd need to control/use the nex effectively.

On mg/rifle/HLAC:
I've said this a lot too, that imho the mg should have less accuracy, and the HLAC should have a spin-up spin-down fireing style.
The rifle primary is nice, I like the whole headshot stuff, but the secodary firemode is ridiculous.

Perfectly agree. If nex would use different ammo type since beginning there would have never been balance problem with it due you could never spam or camp with it for long time, giving other weapons more relevance too. I offer my pc for map recompilations if that what it takes...

Nex doesn't need separate ammo, already takes 5 bullets per shot.

Vordreller wrote:Nex doesn't need separate ammo, already takes 5 bullets per shot.

The core of the problem is completely different The problem is that you can supply the strongest weapon in the game from ANYWHERE on the map, because the weaker weapons (that are placed on every corner) keep your nex filled up. Noone can say its normal... Okey i simplify down the current isse with the superlow ammo number so everyone can get the point: imagine that there is only 1 ammotype, you can keep the ammo of your weapons on high level just by walking anywhere. The difference isnt too huge even with 4 ammos.
It wouldnt be solved almost at all if nex would consume double, 10 ammos. The problem is that you can feed it with one of the most common ammo type. With separate ammo type the mappers could control on their map where and wether they want to support sniping/camping. Example from other game: there is a reason why the reedember doesnt use 50 rocket ammo instead of its special ammo type. Same with BFG in quake, if it would just consume normal rocket ammo, people could spam with it all the time without any problem of ammo supply.
A partial soultion can be without remaking all the maps to give a maximum capacity of ammo that you can carry with yourself, so you wont be able to shoot with nex 100 times if you pick up 500 ammo (takes 2 minutes to collect on a usual map), but i would still stick to the original idea.

I would like to see a better start weapon, something that is moderately good for long and close range.
Perhaps, a laser version of the Halo pistol would work out nicely.
A few peeps with a Laser Pistol should be able to take out a camper with a nex

Instead of nerfing the nex I would like to see a weapon the would be effective at taking out Nex campers.