This is just my observation about new players lately .

It seems that new players (noobs) , Dont have the attention span or the want , to know how to play better . Now im not one of the best players in nexuiz but i think i do pretty good overall . I have noticed recently over the past few months that most of the new players dont seem to want to know about all the Nexuiz physics and movement or tricks that separate the skilled from the aimless running around with shotgun . The other day i was accused of using an aimbot ( like most veterans are as well ) but the same player also wanted to know how i move so fast and jump so high . in his eyes i must have been cheating to some extent . but i tried explaining that it was just plain experience from playing over a 2 year span . when i came in to nexuiz during 2.3 i also wondered how these thing were possible . I asked and got answers with some slight training . Over time i developed my own style with the knowledge of how to perform what was needed to to play better than others .
Now i understand that often times people play less serious than i do , and some even more serious than me . but when i try to train or show someone how to move with basic skill or help show them that default FOV and mouse sensativity may be better with other settings , i get a lack of enthusiasm . Its like they are here to waste time and not enjoy a game fully . I find it more fun to use the physics to my advantage . Hence i like maps that arent open , mostly . usage of skill seems to be the way to go for me as far astrafing around corners to lose an enemy , and if i cant ,use what i know about about weapon combos . for the most part i can just out run enemies withous a single shot fired . and that brings me to open maps and noobs . They all want to play wide open maps that have a large FOV . i think its because they cant move , and they cant sit with a nex in one spot . Its easier that way . i remember it being that way when i was new to nexuiz . I only got better because i wanted more of a challenge . So i learned how to move without hook ( wich i used to love ) . now i find it boring . trick jumps and movement skill is far more entertaining than camping and hooking around . But the thing im ranting about is , it doesnt seem to be catching on like when i was playing . New players dont seem to have the initiative that i did to learn how to play better . Thus , it seems that old school player get bored with playing anymore because there is no chase .
Im not trying to make point or say im better . im just going off what i have seen in the pubs lately over the past few months . i still enjoy the game because there are some who want to play more skilled and private games . I just wish that somehow new players could taste what its like to play more efficiently more often . i do volunteer to teach people what i know , but when they accuse me of cheating without letting me show them how to do it exactly like i do it with skill, then its hard to have any future competition .
i just wanted to put this out there for some brainstorming on how to make new players understand how nexuiz works . not all maps have to be wide open with a nex for it to be fun .
-thoughts?

It always goes this, with every game in time. Just get over it, and if you don't find public entertaining anymore, just use #nexuiz.pickup.

Grasshopper wrote:...Too long, but did read...

so you are basically saying that new players lack the drive of learning how to effectively utilize Nexuiz movement physics? Better keep it short and simple ;o)

My experiences are mixed. When I am playing and notice people really don't know about advanced stuff, then I offer to help them. Sometimes they don't care, sometimes they say "yeah, show me" and then they don't follow my advice.

But it also happened that I invited one player that showed interest in learning how to do tricks to a 1on1 coaching session and when I connected to the 1on1 server I recommended, half of the other players from the previous game had connected too and were following my advices and learning new techniques. That was really cool Bo)

So there always are people out there who are open for advice. Keep showing them how Nexuiz works, Newbies need experienced players to show them tricks. If this hadn't happened to me some years ago, I'd probably not be playing Nexuiz at all at the moment.

And this is where making a balance for 2.6 is perhaps one of the hardest things possible I have to essentially make the balance more appealing to new players while still maintaining competitive aspects while still keeping our current player base... DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA HOW FUCKING HARD THAT IS? Worst yet, everyone has different opinions on how it should be done and only about 2 or 3 of them are really credible in my eyes for commenting on balance under all those aspects. Basically, fml.

Seriously though I did have the idea of making the physics smoother, pretty sure this could be helpful to new players (They might like the movement then, I don't know) -- But the community didn't like the idea of the physics changing again. As for balance, I tried to make the weapons more fun and I made the shotgun and laser fairly weak compared to all other weapons.. This really means that the only way you can do pretty good in a match is if you get a weapon unlike in 2.5.2. (BTW this is probably why you see noobs running around with shotguns, it's too strong -- Well rather, maybe it doesn't make them think about getting another weapon as much?) As for other changes I can do which benefit new players, again I want to make the weapons as fun as possible to use.... Example being bringing back the 3 burst electro secondary, etc.

Anyone else have any ideas?

Listen to me on this finally people, I have played Nexuiz since 2.3 but never played Quake or similar "old school" shooters. I know both sides.

It isn't that new players want a shallow, easy game you master in an hour. Many, many times the current player base want a deep gameplay experience. BUT, they want it to be INTUITIVE. They want complex things that actually MAKE SENSE and are somewhat BELIEVABLE. It doesn't have to be realistic, but they don't want something that is fucking insanely unrealistic, buglike, senseless physics shitasticness either.


Examples of Good:

Running around, what is it? It's how you get around most of the time in RL.
Jumping, what is it? Same as above.
Guns, what are they? They are projectile weapons like the ones we know and love from RL.
Cover, what is it? Shit you hide behind.
Grappling Hook, what is it? A rope with a hook on the end, you can swing on or climb up it.
Jet Pack, what is it? A small helicopter/hovercraft, like the ones we know and love from RL.
Ramp Jumping, what is it? A jump, like in skateboarding, skiing, snowboarding, what idiots do with their cars, etc.
Wall Jumping, what is it? It's that Parkour stuff everyone's doing! Jumping off a vertical surface to gain a little height, IOW.


Examples of EVIL:

Bunny Hopping, what is it? It's umm, some sort of bouncing, only. . . you turn into a hovercraft that hops, lika hover bunny err. . . I dunno it's just somethin' ya' do 'cause your just so 1337.
Weapon Jumping, what is it? It's like exploding yourself only you don't die and you don't explode and it makes you run really fast and fly super high like a superman bunny err. . . super bunny explosion. . .
Strafe Jumping, what is it? Dunno, it's like. . . when you turn a corner really fast and . . . the super bunnies! yes the invisible super bunnies push you to make you go faster but only if you're hoping and turning "juuuuust wight".

Samual wrote:And this is where making a balance for 2.6 is perhaps one of the hardest things possible I have to essentially make the balance more appealing to new players while still maintaining competitive aspects while still keeping our current player base...

Sorry man, but you have to make a choice at some point. The old players or the new players. You can have competitive aspects either way, but if the vets are unwilling to adapt to letting go of old physics bugs from the quake games then you have to choose. New or old, simple as that.

Seriously though I did have the idea of making the physics smoother, pretty sure this could be helpful to new players (They might like the movement then, I don't know)

Last I tried, your physics greatly reduced friction versus 2.5 physics. I'm more than okay with that on its own, I have a special love for hovercraft games like the battlezone remakes. BUT, the character models are essentially infantry or ordinary people, not hovercraft or people wearing socks in the mall. In that context it is confusing and unintuitive to new players when combined with your physics. AND, the game still has so many close quarters maps, you constantly bounce off the walls. To make the physics more friendly to newcomers, you must make it more like people physics- smoother acceleration curve but better traction/stopping.

As for balance. . . . I made the shotgun and laser fairly weak compared to all other weapons..

But that will NOT attract new players! New players don't know where the weapons are, they can't move as fast to get to them, they can't fight as well without a real weapon, and won't even live that long once they have a real weapon! You're telling them there's a paddle upstream after you've thrown them in shit's creek with only cement shoes on.

And newer games that new players are used to are much better at providing very good starting weapons, more often than not they start you out with a weapon that is also a pickup because it is effective enough to be that as well.

Flying Steel wrote:Examples of EVIL:

Bunny Hopping, what is it? It's umm, some sort of bouncing, only. . . you turn into a hovercraft that hops, lika hover bunny err. . . I dunno it's just somethin' ya' do 'cause your just so 1337.
Weapon Jumping, what is it? It's like exploding yourself only you don't die and you don't explode and it makes you run really fast and fly super high like a superman bunny err. . . super bunny explosion. . .
Strafe Jumping, what is it? Dunno, it's like. . . when you turn a corner really fast and . . . the super bunnies! yes the invisible super bunnies push you to make you go faster but only if you're hoping and turning "juuuuust wight".

You obviously lack the knowledge of how NEXUIZ movement works. It's not like quake, where you gain speed by moving forward AND left/right. In nexuiz, "strafe jumping" can only be applied, to where it has any gain in acceleration, in the first few jumps. After that, you only gain speed by moving forward in a certain direction. When you turn, you decelerate depending on how you move the mouse and what buttons you press. There is no turning "juuuuuuuuuust wight". There is no "sweet spot". The right area to look at is rather dynamic and easier to find, and ultimately master. And even then, when you're moving forward, you slowly gain speed, not extremely fast.

I thought an original aspect of the game was to be "fast paced", but can you really be fast paced without bunnyhopping/circlestrafing? It sounds like you want the physics in nexuiz to match the physics you would find in, for example, CS:S, or Halo. If people wanted to play something that have the physics you think would be ideal, the game entirely would be more realistic. If they (the new players) wanted to play a realistic game, would they play nexuiz? Or would they play a game like crysis?

It also sounds like you're leaning away towards the whole "grab a stronger weapon/health/armor". This also takes away a part of the game that's been around for a while I would believe. This is also starting to sound a lot like CS:S........

PCLizard wrote:You obviously lack the knowledge of how NEXUIZ movement works. It's not like quake, where you gain speed by moving forward AND left/right. In nexuiz, "strafe jumping" can only be applied, to where it has any gain in acceleration, in the first few jumps. After that, you only gain speed by moving forward in a certain direction.

I know that already, but it doesn't make it anymore intuitive or deep. It's just another wonderful "trick" that new players can't figure out, that they have to be taught.

PCLizard wrote:When you turn, you decelerate depending on how you move the mouse and what buttons you press. There is no turning "juuuuuuuuuust wight". There is no "sweet spot".

Well it's not technically strafe jumping, but if you turn a corner hopping just so, any deceleration is very negligible. It's an essential skill that I've picked up over the years of playing and reading forum posts here, but it isn't really intuitive. When noobs see me doing it or another vet doing it (or rather witness the speed we have attained by maintaining our speed through corners) it's just another demoralizing "hack" to them.

And that is not an unreasonable assumption for them to make. Because what we're doing isn't obvious, intuitive or much like anything you would do in reality. So it looks and plays too much like a hack, and not something they could just figure out or would even want to imitate in the first place.

PCLizard wrote:I thought an original aspect of the game was to be "fast paced", but can you really be fast paced without bunnyhopping/circlestrafing?

YES! A million different ways you can! Fast paced just means fast paced.

You could eliminate those two things and then make the game even faster by adding or increasing other speed based features. Take sauerbraten for example, it's faster than nexuiz, but doesn't appear to deliver any advantage in bunny hopping.

Or you could rebalance and better integrate existing "mutator" features like the hook and jet, which were never fully integrated with the default balance. Or do that and add new ones, or create variants of those, etc. You could add a new, hover boots pickup, vehicle or character class, with high speed - low friction performance somewhat similar to current hopping.

It doesn't matter as long as whatever it is, is intuitive to new players. Something loosely based on something you could do in reality is never a bad starting place and will likely look "cooler" in the end too.

PCLizard wrote:If people wanted to play something that have the physics you think would be ideal, the game entirely would be more realistic. If they (the new players) wanted to play a realistic game, would they play nexuiz? Or would they play a game like crysis?

Well for one, crysis costs some money and has much higher system requirements. That's a noteworthy difference outside of gameplay that probably attracts new players, it just can't KEEP them playing, which is the age old problem. Similarly, the really good looking free shooters are mostly very fast paced in an old school sort of way, so Nexuiz isn't much different from its "competition" in its little "niche in the market".

Besides that, some might want a simpler game or a faster game. But Nexuiz isn't really simple, and isn't only a fast paced game. It is a game with some really unintuitive, tricky, bizarre looking movement "features" that are obviously turning people off.

PCLizard wrote:It also sounds like you're leaning away towards the whole "grab a stronger weapon/health/armor". This also takes away a part of the game that's been around for a while I would believe. This is also starting to sound a lot like CS:S........

So what? What does it matter if Nexuiz had a feature (in default gameplay) like whatever "CS:S" is (cascading style sheets? ) rather than the millions of free quake engine based offshoots out there? What if it eventually added another 50% to the skilled Nexuiz player base, would you still consider this some sort of deadly sin?

You could always have a mutator where everyone just starts with a laser.

Well, if the movement were to change, it would completely ruin it for not only myself, but other people I know, some that don't play for competitive reasons. I thought that the movement added depth to the game, but according to you, it seems that no one wants to learn it. What's the point of a game if you can't get "into it", you know..learn more about it. If people don't want to do that, then they would only want to play for fun, and even though I'm not saying nexuiz isn't fun (It's the first fast paced FPS that I deeply enjoyed), there are other games out there that are free that have little to no learning curve. I think you want to replace the current movement with something much easier and less of a learning curve...which sure, more people MAY like. But even then...I'm sure there will be something else you would have to "tone down", which is probably the items, or the weapons themselves. Even if these changes would have a 50% gain in the "skilled player base", the actual "skills" would be entirely different, which would ultimately lead not to an increase of the current "skilled player base", but the death of the current skilled player base and a birth of a new skilled player base. Basically...nexuiz would be a different game, I suppose. Then, you must ask yourself, what matters most? Building onto what's currently there, in terms of the gameplay, or completely recreate it to be completely different to gain more players, and probably more popularity.

I'm not against change, but I stand for not only the competitive community, but for what I thought nexuiz used to be.

Oh, by the way, I'm sorry I didn't point it out, but when I said CS:S, I meant Counter Strike Source =P.

PCLizard wrote:Well, if the movement were to change, it would completely ruin it for not only myself, but other people I know, some that don't play for competitive reasons.

And that lack of flexibility is why I told samual a few posts ago he had to choose between old and new players. If old player's won't budge a single quake unit, then there can be no compromise, and popularity will continue to degrade at its present rate or thereabout.

PCLizard wrote:I thought that the movement added depth to the game, but according to you, it seems that no one wants to learn it.

Did you read the first post in this thread? It's not just me who's saying it. It's actually been said quite a few times now over a number of threads.

PCLizard wrote:What's the point of a game if you can't get "into it", you know..learn more about it.

I totally agree. But I don't think that's the issue at all. Having that kind of gameplay 'depth' you are describing and having intuitive gameplay are not at all mutually exclusive.

PCLizard wrote:there are other games out there that are free that have little to no learning curve. I think you want to replace the current movement with something much easier and less of a learning curve...which sure, more people MAY like.

Nope, not what I am saying at all.

What I am saying is Nexuiz bases its learning curve on weird tricks that are counter-intuitive and look like cheating, because they basically got their start as exploits in a game engine from a dozen years ago. And this is the main cause of new players not wanting to learn the game. It isn't that the learning curve is too steep.

PCLizard wrote:Even if these changes would have a 50% gain in the "skilled player base", the actual "skills" would be entirely different, which would ultimately lead not to an increase of the current "skilled player base", but the death of the current skilled player base and a birth of a new skilled player base. Basically...nexuiz would be a different game, I suppose.

Yes, for two dramatic inflexibilities of the current skilled player base. One is that they only play if there is bunny hopping. Two is that they will leave even if this only happens to default Nexuiz. They won't play mutators, or on servers with "classic physics" or whatever. They'll just leave.

PCLizard wrote:Then, you must ask yourself, what matters most? Building onto what's currently there, in terms of the gameplay, or completely recreate it to be completely different to gain more players, and probably more popularity.

But before you ask yourself that, remember that ultimately popularity = development.

PCLizard wrote:I'm not against change, but I stand for not only the competitive community, but for what I thought nexuiz used to be.

A bunny hopping simulator? Seriously?

There are too many people in the world for everyone to have what they want. If more people realized that, the world would be a healthier place.

one of the main problems with open source projects is people can influence what the end result could be. and sometimes this leads to abuse of this, where some people are unwilling to sacrifice what they want, and they clash with the other people who aren't willing to sacrifice what they want either. This leads to a very unhealthy atmosphere for development, and for community.

as far as I can tell, that is what is happening here. the veteran players are unwilling to sacrifice what they want to see in Nexuiz, and unwilling to compromise with the new players, who have their own idea of what they want Nexuiz to be. The bad atmosphere this creates might be driving away even more players, thus making the problem worse.

As a player of Nexuiz, I trust the developers to create an excellent game. They have done a good job so far, and I have no doubt they will continue to do so. What Nexuiz becomes is up to them, and by arguing like this, you are only making their job harder.

maybe if both sided came to a compromise on their own, and presented it to the developers in an organized manner, then it might be taken into consideration, and make Nexuiz a better game all around. but to reach that compromise, BOTH sides will have to sacrifice a little.

just a thought.

I don't think this has anything to do with the way nexuiz hs different mechanics at all. I think it's what makes Nexuiz unique even, the thing that keeps you coming back.

And yes, considering the graphics limitations of nexuiz, I wouldn't play it if it played exactly like every other FPS games out there. I myself am in a team developing another game which is very much a traditional FPS. Yet I still play nexuiz, simply because it's different.

The issues are simple:

1) The current weapon balance favors the 'noob weapons' horribly. As has been said in countless arguments in IRC. The Machine Gun and Shotgun are currently probably the most powerful easy-to-use weapons in default nexuiz. Which basically means, players will prefer them over the harder-to-use 'higher weapons' - e.g. rockets/nexuiz/grenade launcher. Damage-per-second-wise, they simply are no match for the spammy death of MG and the easy availability of shotguns.

As such the results are predictable - they will never take the effort to learn higher weapons. The weapon 'heirarchy' is upside down.

2) The current crop of 'elite' players do little to help newbies. Once upon a time, experienced players would go out of their way to teach a noob how to bunnyjump, how to laserjump, etc. Now they just waltz into a server, kill all the noobs, and leave. Usually without a SINGLE word spoken. Or worse, brag about it.

How many people actually say 'hi' anymore when a noob says 'hello'? How many people take time to stop and type a longwinded explanation of how something works when a noob asks them, even when they know it would mean their death? You don't. You'd sooner have someone tell you to 'press f10' than actually tell you. How many people play the game for the fun, not for the scores? You don't either. You'd have elite players quitting as soon as they start losing, players typefragging simply because someone did that to them once, skilled players joining stacked winning teams when they should've known better, players ignoring chat or worse, actually telling people that 'this game is for fragging, not chatting".

They learn soon enough that arrogance is the way in nexuiz. So they stop asking. They become silent players too, no matter how bad they are.

When I first started to play nexuiz. I was like them. I didn't have any idea how to laserjump. I played like that for a week or so, then asked someone. I still remember his username, though he does not play anymore - Bender. We were the only people in the server, and he gladly taught me everything from laserjumping to wallclimbing.

I don't see that anymore. We don't have communities anymore. Even the clans are dying. Everything is exclusive. From the hidden servers to the 1on1 events that noobs have no idea about. Where before we had 'teaching' servers. There was a clan/community which focused exclusively on teaching new players I think. And there were clans which took in less skilled players and taught them, instead of headhunting for the most skilled players around regardless if they were actually assholes ingame.

P.S. The reason why I like wide open maps is not for camping. It's because closed maps restrict speed. If you have a ping higher than 100 you'll have great difficulty executing the 'wall-bouncing' elite players take for granted. Much less at my normal 300-400.

P.P.S. I haven't played nexuiz for a while now. It just gets too frustrating. The team stacking, the unfriendly skilled players, etc. etc. Might not for a while still.

Oblivion wrote:How many people actually say 'hi' anymore when a noob says 'hello'? How many people take time to stop and type a longwinded explanation of how something works when a noob asks them, even when they know it would mean their death? You don't.

I do... always. Without exception. But maybe it's just me? I don't know. I have noticed, though, that compared to a year or two ago, I see more people just playing and not chatting a word at all, even skilled/experienced players. I usually start to chat to people while playing, some seem to get annoyed but others chat back and the atmosphere instantly gets better in the game.

I say, if you want a good atmosphere in a game, go and create it yourself. You'll get feedback one way or the other.

Yoda almighty wrote:the veteran players are unwilling to sacrifice what they want to see in Nexuiz, and unwilling to compromise with the new players, who have their own idea of what they want Nexuiz to be.
. . .
maybe if both sided came to a compromise on their own, and presented it to the developers in an organized manner, then it might be taken into consideration, and make Nexuiz a better game all around. but to reach that compromise, BOTH sides will have to sacrifice a little.

The trouble is there are not two well represented "sides", but only one side with a voice that carries. There's the veteran players who are vocal and uncompromising on the forums and IRC, and then there are loads of new players who come and go very quickly because the gameplay doesn't hold their interest.

Then there's me, the lorax who speaks for the newbes. I occasionally take veterans to task because their stubbornness on giving up or changing even the smallest element of gameplay is strangling the game's future by turning off new blood in droves. And oddly enough, even though they fight for every last "unique" feature of Nexuiz, they seem to spend more and more time playing Call of Duty and other craptastic tactical shooters which have no such features. So there's a kind of veteran exodus from Nexuiz too, it seems to me.

If I understood you right, you were suggesting to remove bunny hopping and laser/weapon jumping in order to make the gameplay more intuitive for newbies? If this is the case, I do not agree. I vote for keeping at least bunny hopping and laser/weapon jumping for the following reasons:

Bunny hopping is just fun - the way to gain speed by carefully selecting your hopping path makes moving very fluent and elegant if you are moving fast. I just like that from an aesthetic/fun perspective. It's like doing long drifts with a car without touching anything. Or like flying through a twisted canyon close above the ground.

Laser/weapon jumping is a great way to gain speed quickly and to get out of close combat instantly. Sacrificing a reasonable amount of health for that makes you have to think about when/if to do weapon jumps. In my opinion this greatly enhances the depth of gameplay. Also, if you can't do weapon jumps it would be only logical to drastically remove the push effect from the weapons and juggling with opponents is in my humble opinion the funniest part of the game by far (I used to have quite a high "accident" rate in my "preferred weapons" statistics on DCC, didn't check for a long time though).

Maybe we can approach the issue from another way. How about if we try to improve the knowledge/skill transfer from skilled players to newbies? We could, for example, add a message at the start of the game that players with a certain suffix to their nicks (like, for example ">TUTOR<" or similar) form a kind of point of contact for new players. I believe often the very new players don't dare to ask anyone, especially not players that seem very skilled. Would the so-called veterans support this?

Sorry for double posting, but I felt this idea didn't really fit into my previous post.

Besides what C.Brutail said. This is a social problem and not fixable by technical stuff.

Ok, by all means, tutorials are nice, even more so if demos were supplied with the game and played during tutorial that showed how it looks like when a noob and the master jedi runs around and do their stuff on a map and of course all the degrees of skills in between. BUT that can one already do by simply spectate a player online. IIRC its also already a line with "spectate to learn", in the tutorial.

Otherwise, the vaccine consists of humble adequate helpfulness. In other words being a carebear. Here I could list a whole bunch of NOT helpful stuff, but I just say that how you act in game is a statement of what is ok and whats not.

As soon as someone says: "This is my fi.." / "I have only played for mo.." I start typing: "Welcome and hello, if you have any questions, please ask "
-----------------------------------------------------------------
I think these things are at least a good start:

I don't use the shade grey on my character, visually impaired or not, people can see me and learn to aim.
I use laser IF I shoot at a typing player.
I play with "cl_handicap X" to level things out if needed. OR just the laser.

And of course first of all, gaming is NOT about winning/being "rite on tho internets". That only applies when the opponent have a chance. Otherwise its just slaughter/what some refer to as "raep" and not fun OR helpful at all.

+1

I totally agree. And yes, coming to mention it, I too use bright colors for my character so people can see where I am. I also regularly use cl_handicap.

BTW does this handycap thingy even work on DCC's Plain Delight? I often get the feeling setting it up to 2 doesnt change a thing. Sometimes I set it up to 5 or so but still do not notice much of an effect.

Anyway, I'd really suggest people who are willing to teach new players the basics to show some kind of tag in their nick so that new players dare to ask them. I bet most of the new players just think "oh boy this is too darn hard, I'll never have a chance". Especially since the skill level on DCC's Plain Delight is sometimes incredible high (relatively spoken, meaning that I find myself in the lower half of the scoring table).

How could we ensure that new players know it is ok to ask? I don't think a simple server message is enough. I think there should be a personal signal from the experienced player that indicates "ask me". That way everybody knows it is ok to ask at least that person.

I've never really tried to differ between games, I play Nexuiz, exactly how I play Quake 3:

1) Small bunnyhops everywhere
2) Fast strafing around corners and for mid air turns

It's worked for 10 years quite nicely

halogene wrote:BTW does this handycap thingy even work on DCC's Plain Delight?

Yes, it works, its a clientside didlything. So one have to reconnect to the server if one changes the cl_handicap value.

halogene wrote:..some kind of tag in their nick..

You "guise" know what would be really cool?
If there was a way for a server admin to put a hm.. mark/medal or the like next to a players nick in the scorelist, that this player have a long track of being a frequent/helpful/nice player on the server. As in a "trustie, like a +V on IRC, a VP person, Santas helper of the year and so fourth or however one wants to put it".

However, I guess this would be tightly link with a (global)authentication system. Otherwise a great chance of there being lies and then followed by gunfire. Ok.. so there is gunfire anyways and the medal to nick could be a ip thing. But this would provide some nourishment for a stronger server specific culture, partly on how a server is run and then the players. Which on the other hand make it hard for new up and coming servers to establise them selfs, even if they are admin'ed well.
Players would also notice on a server if a mark/medal/indicator means something or its just a "meh.."-reason. So that stuff sorts itself out.

halogene wrote:I also regularly use cl_handicap.

BTW does this handycap thingy even work on DCC's Plain Delight? I often get the feeling setting it up to 2 doesnt change a thing. Sometimes I set it up to 5 or so but still do not notice much of an effect.

If the system hasn't changed, use setreport cl_handicap 2, so the server know how to calculate your damage, otherwise it use your handicap value at connect time.

halogene wrote:If I understood you right, you were suggesting to remove bunny hopping and laser/weapon jumping in order to make the gameplay more intuitive for newbies?

For default, yes. And then replacing them with movement ways that fill similar roles but are much more recognizable, intuitive and transparent. And that look like they are meant to be part of the game, not something newbes would understandably confuse for hacking or exploiting.

Bunny hopping is just fun - the way to gain speed by carefully selecting your hopping path makes moving very fluent and elegant if you are moving fast. I just like that from an aesthetic/fun perspective. It's like doing long drifts with a car without touching anything. Or like flying through a twisted canyon close above the ground.

Having learned to do it well myself, I totally agree. It does having a vehicular quality to it too.

But I don't see most players doing it and very few doing it well, not even in the open maps. I do see a lot of hook and jet usage on the servers that have allowed those though. So it isn't a matter of the game being faster or slower or easier or harder, because hook and jet are not any easier to use than bunny hopping and very much faster. The problem is that bunny hopping is just to weird of a thing for new players to really get into.

Laser/weapon jumping is a great way to gain speed quickly and to get out of close combat instantly. Sacrificing a reasonable amount of health for that makes you have to think about when/if to do weapon jumps. In my opinion this greatly enhances the depth of gameplay. Also, if you can't do weapon jumps it would be only logical to drastically remove the push effect from the weapons and juggling with opponents

It isn't about how much push the weapons have, it is the ratio of push to self damage being too high. So juggling is fine.

The distances you can cross and speed you can attain through weapon jumping is just too high for such a weird mode of travel. And a mode of travel with such a weird interface- having to look and aim in the opposite direction from where you want to go, to perform the best weapon jumps. Not newbe friendly.


We need to add, or in the case of the hook and jet, better integrate and balance more intuitive modes of travel into default to make the game more transparent and graspable to new players. And then use these to replace the less intuitive, legacy movement modes I listed earlier, in default. Servers can still run whatever physics set they want, from classic physics with hopping and extreme weapon push/self-damage ratios to full out old school movement mods like Nexrun.

Oblivion wrote:2) The current crop of 'elite' players do little to help newbies. Once upon a time, experienced players would go out of their way to teach a noob how to bunnyjump, how to laserjump, etc. Now they just waltz into a server, kill all the noobs, and leave. Usually without a SINGLE word spoken. Or worse, brag about it.

How many people actually say 'hi' anymore when a noob says 'hello'? How many people take time to stop and type a longwinded explanation of how something works when a noob asks them, even when they know it would mean their death? You don't. You'd sooner have someone tell you to 'press f10' than actually tell you. How many people play the game for the fun, not for the scores? You don't either. You'd have elite players quitting as soon as they start losing, players typefragging simply because someone did that to them once, skilled players joining stacked winning teams when they should've known better, players ignoring chat or worse, actually telling people that 'this game is for fragging, not chatting".

They learn soon enough that arrogance is the way in nexuiz. So they stop asking. They become silent players too, no matter how bad they are.

When I first started to play nexuiz. I was like them. I didn't have any idea how to laserjump. I played like that for a week or so, then asked someone. I still remember his username, though he does not play anymore - Bender. We were the only people in the server, and he gladly taught me everything from laserjumping to wallclimbing.

I don't see that anymore. We don't have communities anymore. Even the clans are dying. Everything is exclusive. From the hidden servers to the 1on1 events that noobs have no idea about. Where before we had 'teaching' servers. There was a clan/community which focused exclusively on teaching new players I think. And there were clans which took in less skilled players and taught them, instead of headhunting for the most skilled players around regardless if they were actually assholes ingame.

Yeah, I remember when I first started out playing the game more than two years ago. People were more friendly and were willing to help others. When you say the "current elite players", who do you refer too? I hope no one in the MiT clan or myself =/. MiT has had, throughout it's almost two year span, recruited fairly new players, to teach not only the mechanics of nexuiz, but as well as teamwork. I remember when I first joined MiT after my...well, rather failed clan I had started when I first started playing. It was only slash, azruelli, and SoldierX. Now, none of those three people play nexuiz anymore, I remain the only original leader of MiT that plays. And not even as often at that, at least, not nearly as often as I used to.

I guess the point I'm trying to make across is, things HAVE changed over the last two years for sure. Why? I can probably name a few reasons, but will not for the sake of trying to avoid other conflicts, but all said and done, you cannot change what has already happened. Obviously we all can agree that something is wrong. Maybe it's the lack of communication with new players, as stated before in this thread? I don't think the new "elite players" really care about helping new players, which I find odd, because most of the players I know would help any new players. Maybe those players that I know are the original "elite" players, and the players you refer to are the "Public heros", AKA somewhat skilled public server players .

sup guise,

I am probably the noob you are talking about. You should be pleased to know however that I am speccing a good percentage of the time. Know who I spec? the players with the most frags and the most caps. maybe points matter, maybe they dont. i am slowly getting used to weapon switching combinations, and overusing the bunny hop is vital to learn the handling.

and about protecting the flag carrier: there needs to be a way to program in some flag carrier protection points, because as it stands, you score more to accidentally kill the fc and take the flag.

and as for the minsta and the hook... that should be named something else, not nexuiz. its a different game. call it spider-quake or something. at any rate, the weapon matches and the minsta matches are like comparing a snickers bar to a log of poop or something. its a different game altogether so it should be called something else. How about decide what nexuiz is and improve that instead of struggling with an identity. Weps demand more varied skills, and thus a slower and more robust learning curve. This potentially extends the lifecycle of the average player, and should fill some of the empty servers as Nexuiz population increases.

i am located in europe and i find that euro servers use the absolute worst maps imo. i prefer the hoctf servers even though there is sometimes considerable lag. also, since i am american i understand the vibe of americans better dont ask me why. there are good players worth watching all over the place.

as long as this game should thrive, there will always be noobs. the day theres no noobs its the end of nexuiz... or maybe the universe. i personally think the word is stupid given there are infinite subjects of study in the universe. as long as we live we are gonna be 'noobs' at something. as M.J. would have said.. 'its ignorant'

Ronan wrote:If the system hasn't changed, use setreport cl_handicap 2, so the server know how to calculate your damage, otherwise it use your handicap value at connect time.

Cool, thank you very much for that info - didn't know that! That explains A LOT! :o)

If popularity or average skill levels are going down, you can't blame it on the players, for not teaching other players how the game works. I mean, they're players, not teachers! It's nice if they are helpful, but if most folks aren't getting how things work, it is either the fault of the documentation/tutorials or the game is too hard/unfun for them.

And the game does already have a narrated tutorial level, campaign and customizable bots, so it probably isn't a lack of teaching tools. And the games ships with docs for beginners.

fragit wrote:sup guise,

I am probably the noob you are talking about. You should be pleased to know however that I am speccing a good percentage of the time. Know who I spec? the players with the most frags and the most caps. maybe points matter, maybe they dont. i am slowly getting used to weapon switching combinations, and overusing the bunny hop is vital to learn the handling.

and about protecting the flag carrier: there needs to be a way to program in some flag carrier protection points, because as it stands, you score more to accidentally kill the fc and take the flag.

and as for the minsta and the hook... that should be named something else, not nexuiz. its a different game. call it spider-quake or something. at any rate, the weapon matches and the minsta matches are like comparing a snickers bar to a log of poop or something. its a different game altogether so it should be called something else. How about decide what nexuiz is and improve that instead of struggling with an identity. Weps demand more varied skills, and thus a slower and more robust learning curve. This potentially extends the lifecycle of the average player, and should fill some of the empty servers as Nexuiz population increases.

i am located in europe and i find that euro servers use the absolute worst maps imo. i prefer the hoctf servers even though there is sometimes considerable lag. also, since i am american i understand the vibe of americans better dont ask me why. there are good players worth watching all over the place.

as long as this game should thrive, there will always be noobs. the day theres no noobs its the end of nexuiz... or maybe the universe. i personally think the word is stupid given there are infinite subjects of study in the universe. as long as we live we are gonna be 'noobs' at something. as M.J. would have said.. 'its ignorant'

I think Fragit's post shows an important thing: Nexuiz started out as plain old deathmatch - with a Nexuiz touch to it. CTF was added later as an enhancement, like MinstaGib. Today it's a given and new players may be attracted by several, conflicting concepts - playing in a team or as a Lone Wolf. The DM factor is a mere marginal feature to those who chose Nexuiz because of the Team Play. Others may have chosen it because of the Deathmatch....

I've been playing since 1.1 (about 2005), and i've seen many things change, not only in Nexuiz. Another part is the Linux community that has become "noobier", because of the increasing popularity. The generations also differ in how they're raised.... Now i forgot what i was up to say, so, that shall be all for now. See ya in-game!

The mysterious Mr. 4m wrote:I think Fragit's post shows an important thing: Nexuiz started out as plain old deathmatch - with a Nexuiz touch to it. CTF was added later as an enhancement, like MinstaGib. Today it's a given and new players may be attracted by several, conflicting concepts - playing in a team or as a Lone Wolf. The DM factor is a mere marginal feature to those who chose Nexuiz because of the Team Play. Others may have chosen it because of the Deathmatch....

Very true. Also, popular CTF maps are almost all big, open maps, while DM maps are the traditional cramped passageway, close quarters type maps. So the play styles are very different from one to the other.

I've been playing since 1.1 (about 2005), and i've seen many things change, not only in Nexuiz. Another part is the Linux community that has become "noobier", because of the increasing popularity. The generations also differ in how they're raised.... Now i forgot what i was up to say, so, that shall be all for now. See ya in-game!

Also true, IMO, there's a rift between fps gamers who started playing in the late '90s and those who started playing in the early 2000s. Mostly because FPS games changed so much over the turn of the millennium.

I dunno what I can say... I read most of the replies. Myself, I am probably one of the best examples for one of these "elitist oldschool players", as they have been called here. Well, ok, I've been doing stuff to help the community enough, like the In-Depth podcast or being involved in tournament/ladders etc., however, apart from that, I also think that a lot has changed in the community.

I started playing the game when it came out in 2005, and the reason why I still play it is
1) I love the weapon/health system and the physics
2) I am good at it, at least much better than in any other game, if I'd start playing another game

Naturally, at the beginning, only reason 1 was important. What was fun when playing the game was that the group of players (who are the good oldschool players now) started playing with a common skill level ... we were all newbs, knew each other, almost noone came from a Quake or UnrealTournament background. Those who did, did have a skill advantage back then and still have it now, referring to kojak for example. The others just became better by themselves. Nobody taught us anything, and no1 asked others to be taught something, simply because this was not necessary, and there were little outstanding players who actually could have taught other players something. Having fun was the most important thing back then. Players like me played on public servers all the time, there were a few ladder servers once I started the ladder, but this didn't mean that I'd avoid FFA servers in any way.

When looking at the situation now... well, it's so different, I dunno where to start. First of all, the scene on public servers is horrible (to me). However, there are different perspectives on this.
1) "Horrible" could refer to what is being done aside from the actual game-play. I mean all the bad things, like stupid provocative nicknames, trashtalk chat, aimbotting, team killing, extremely unskilled players killing the balance between 2 teams, etc. These are effects that are, imo, introduced by the new kinds of players, I mean, the idiots among of these. I do sometimes think that the server has been set-up by a scientist team that tries what happens when apes play the game
2) The other problem is probably caused by my expectations (about actual quality of game-play). At the very beginning when I started playing, by no doubt, the games have been just as chaotic and stupid and with little skill as they are right now on some FFA servers. However, I didn't bother, I was not good back then either. Then, over time, as the players I played with (and me) became better, we were probably still playing quite chaotic. However, from today's perspective, when I play with very sophisticated players in a team in #nexuiz.pickup games, joining public servers has no appeal at all. Also the facts that the public servers don't use fullbright skins makes me not wanna play on them (I know this is a personal issue I have, simply because I am too used to this big nexus model).

As an effect, I only play on FFA servers when I'm in desperate need to play the game a bit (and cannot find any players to play with me in the "elite private scene". And yes, in this case the quote from Oblivion does apply to me, too:

Oblivion wrote:The current crop of 'elite' players do little to help newbies. Once upon a time, experienced players would go out of their way to teach a noob how to bunnyjump, how to laserjump, etc. Now they just waltz into a server, kill all the noobs, and leave. Usually without a SINGLE word spoken. Or worse, brag about it.

Obviously, I am not someone who is bragging about anything, but I do occasionally drop the line "this is not a chat program" when I am bugged by players asking me questions all the time instead of doing that over IRC or forum PM. I do realize that this behaviour, not talking to other people on the server, leaving when not getting enough frags or being killed in stupid situations, not saying hi and bye sometimes, does appear snobby to others, and I agree, it is snobby. My behaviour would certainly be different if there were more people online and playing who are of the "old kind", the guys I knew back then. But they aren't. I dare to say that over 75% of the old school players have left Nexuiz and are not playing regularly anymore. Since I am spending most of my time to play others in tournaments or pickup games, and being on FFA servers only little, I do not think that investing time to get to know the current crop of regularly playing players, and to be come acquainted (or friends) with them, is still worth it, considering that I'd have to "endure" many bad games on stupid space maps, in order to achieve that.

I also think that ego may be an important factor. Back then, when players I knew, and me, were already a little bit better, we did not mind at all to teach newcomers stuff. By doing this we often got these players to actually stick to the game. We didn't really know yet what "skill" or "ego" was, we didn't mind. Nowadays players can be having the attitude like "hey I am better than you, I don't care about you". These are simply egoistic players who became good in the game one way or the other and don't care to share their knowledge. But I think that this only applies to players who were already skilled in aiming and movement from other (quake) games and got good in Nexuiz quickly, and not players who once had no skill at all and had to get that skill in Nexuiz "the hard way", as these are the people who know how valuable advice is. By the way, this ego does develop once you start playing competitive matches and losing or winning games starts being more than "just fun", but a goal you want to achieve. Oh, and another thing would be the thrustworthyness ... sometimes investing time to help players that come along with the nickname "." and spam a lot, well, does not seem feasible. Many players in Nexuiz come, demand help, and disappear just as quickly.

I'd go as far as to compare my situation to reallife. If I was considered a "old fart" (let's say a retired person), would I then go into the club full of teenagers and persons in their twenties? I probably wouldn't. Their style would not suit me. Instead I would go to the chess club and play with the few other old farts who haven't died yet (haven't stopped playing Nexuiz yet) and enjoy this instead.

Also, on a side-note: the private scene is not so private in my opinion. The nexuiz documentation contains links to the tournament and ladder page. This forum contains several threads promoting the #nexuiz.pickup channel and tourneys that are going on. There's not much more you can do.

Summary:
Now you know my personal perspective. I wrote this down because I think you might want to know, and I do think that other players with a similar "career" as mine might think the same. The old elitist players have grown older, they have a job now or are busy with studying and can afford less time nowadays. Because of this, many actually stopped playing the game, and the ones who are left do play with their own kind.

Very true. Also that about the scientists, i think.
I also think one of the reasons some people started playing is, because Nexuiz had hardly any competition in its league, which has changed by now, so those who chose it because there was no (or hardly any) alternative (other games wouldn't even install, for example) drifted away, because they didn't like Nexuiz as much as i did, for example.
I like the fact that there is so much variety to the gameplay and that it's developing continuously. There's always ups and downs and currently other communities are suffering, too.... i think there's a lot of changes going on very fast now; new technologies, lots of new ideas, social movements, politics, economy - like a disturbed bee hive, swarming all over the place. Entropy seems to be increasing, instead of getting less - very odd. o_0

Well.... i don't think Nexuiz has "alternatives". I've been stuck with it for several years and i don't really want to complain, it's doing good enough. Games are developed for many people and not just me (i want guns that shoot alligators, for example). Others differ so much from what i want, i'm very happy to have Nexuiz. Never been that true to any other game, or.... to anything really. I have been trying other games, but never caught on to anything. I'd rather make my own game. There was a time when a bug caused players to get stuck in one another and that one time, on Bleach, it was Yellow Robot, if i recall correctly, who coined the term "Stuck and proud!", and that's what i am, because Nexuiz is a great game, without even considering the shear forces pulling at each of the edges all the time, and it's not backed by a money-spitting machinery! Nexuiz, You rock.

this is so... so... true!! *sob*

*sniff*

anyway, my skill level isn't high enough yet that I wouldn't care teaching newbies stuff. Guess I will need a lot of practice to reach such a level, not sure if I even want that in the first place. :o)

I started to say "New to Nexuiz? Feel free to ask me if you want to learn some tricks." at the end of games, but did not get much feedback up to now. Didn't play much, though.