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Nexuiz.com makeover? Nexuiz going to consoles?

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Re: Nexuiz.com makeover? Nexuiz going to consoles?
Wed Mar 03, 2010 10:57 am

  • Dave wrote:
    LordHavoc wrote:Actually Quake and Quake 2 are id Tech 2, Doom is id Tech 1.

    The license has already been obtained for this title.

    Confusing! :) Well good luck on the release!

    What I'm interested in this console port is how the Darkplaces engine was adapted to the parallel architectures used in the Xbox 360 and particularly the PS3, and whether Darkplaces would be able to use some of those approaches through OpenMP or pthreads, though it seems that only the servers in Nexuiz are very CPU-bound.


    Don't know about Xbox, but for PS3 they could have used the new OpenCL. Just a thought.

    Regarding the other subject, these days I was meaning to volunteer for some Nexuiz development. I've been playing some time now and I wanted to contribute with something to this project. The funny thing was that this decision coincided with the ConsoleNexuiz appearance . When I saw the announcement I thought: "Wow, that's nice. They're making a separate site for Nexuiz and by the looks of it, it will be pretty cool. That's really good for the project's image.". But, as I come to find out, it was all about giving away the game's name and selling the code to a company that will make a console version. Now, I have a dilemma 'cause I really wanted to contribute to this project. And we can say that ok, it happened, they sold it and we cand develop the PC version from now on. But than I think again, and I say: who's to say that it won't happen again? Thus, my dilemma...

    Now, I don't know the guys from Alien Trap and I apologize if this will sound accusing, but think about this: you release the game to GPL under the name Nexuiz (very cool, thanks for that), then the community comes and does it's job and makes it a good game. Then, you come back and say 'well, I've taken just the name and the source code was all agreed upon'. While this is legally sound, morally it isn't. Because you've sold not only the source code, but also the name. Sure, you can very well say: 'so what? you still have the project and can continue it'. Yes, but just think about MySQL and ORACLE. MySQL is pretty much screwed right now. Of course anyone can fork it and release it with another name, but who do you think will use it? Why do you think ORACLE jumped through hoops to acquire Sun? To get OpenOffice? I don't think so. This was a strategy to get the MySQL name off the market, because probably a fork with a new name will take years to enter the market.

    Anyway, I think this is irreversible... They probably signed the papers and the name Nexuiz is probably taken. I think that the best solution is to make a fork and assign a leader that it's sure will stick with the project at least several years from now. My confidence in Alien Trap is lost. I'm not sure that I'll contribute to Nexuiz as long as the project is owned/managed by Alien Trap.
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Re: Nexuiz.com makeover? Nexuiz going to consoles?
Wed Mar 03, 2010 2:06 pm

  • :(
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Re: Nexuiz.com makeover? Nexuiz going to consoles?
Wed Mar 03, 2010 3:30 pm
Re: Nexuiz.com makeover? Nexuiz going to consoles?
Wed Mar 03, 2010 4:22 pm

  • How can this happen! A completely GPLed game will have a commercial branch!
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Re: Nexuiz.com makeover? Nexuiz going to consoles?
Wed Mar 03, 2010 5:54 pm

  • Aleator wrote:What I'm interested in this console port is how the Darkplaces engine was adapted to the parallel architectures used in the Xbox 360 and particularly the PS3, and whether Darkplaces would be able to use some of those approaches through OpenMP or pthreads, though it seems that only the servers in Nexuiz are very CPU-bound.

    Don't know about Xbox, but for PS3 they could have used the new OpenCL. Just a thought.


    I have not looked into OpenCL on PS3, I am planning to use the Sony-provided Cell APIs for using the SPE processors.

    Xbox360 is easier because it is just 6 threads running on 3 cores with the same architecture.

    At this time I am seeing good performance on console without using any multithreading (other than sound for obvious reasons), this is partly because I've always focused on using as little CPU as possible (lowend PCs don't have multiple cores to spread the load across), but gains can be had and I will be pursuing whatever gains I can get from more proper use of the CPU, I know of at least 3ms per frame that can be offloaded, though often the GPU on the consoles is busier than the CPU so this may or may not yield any gains.

    Aleator wrote:Now, I don't know the guys from Alien Trap and I apologize if this will sound accusing, but think about this: you release the game to GPL under the name Nexuiz (very cool, thanks for that), then the community comes and does it's job and makes it a good game. Then, you come back and say 'well, I've taken just the name and the source code was all agreed upon'. While this is legally sound, morally it isn't. Because you've sold not only the source code, but also the name.


    Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer, don't take anything I say as legal advice or legal opinion.

    Yes, AlienTrap sold a closed license to the modified code containing contributions from multiple people (the majority being from div0), with permission.

    The name is not sold, it is licensed (but I can't disclose the details of that), and there should be no problem with using the name for GPL versions and forks, unlike most product names it is not a trademark to my knowledge (defending a trademark would have been too big a burden for AlienTrap, and against the spirit of the game release, so to my knowledge it has never been a trademarked name).

    AlienTrap and Illfonic both maintain parts of the website, so that is a shared resource...

    The main impact of this is that unlike trademarked names like Firefox, you can use the name Nexuiz without obtaining a trademark approval of some sort from AlienTrap first, where as Debian ships their own build of Firefox under the name Iceweasel because Firefox is trademarked and Mozilla Corporation would be required to sue Debian if they distributed it under the name Firefox, even if there was no intent to infringe on the trademark.

    Hopefully I'm not overstepping my bounds in saying this. (as stated above I am not a lawyer, no legal advice or legal opinion here)
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Re: Nexuiz.com makeover? Nexuiz going to consoles?
Wed Mar 03, 2010 6:27 pm

  • I will update the news on the Nexuiz site linking to the new Illfonic site, once I talk further with the main GPL and Illfonic developers, and can address all the issues.
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Re: Nexuiz.com makeover? Nexuiz going to consoles?
Thu Mar 04, 2010 2:31 am

  • LordHavoc wrote:... The name is not sold, it is licensed ...


    LordHavoc wrote:... you can use the name Nexuiz without obtaining a trademark approval ...


    Contradiction: As the name was licensed, that implies someone owns it.

    That also implies that someone received money from subcontracting the domain and trademark, a hallmark of corruption in a FOSS project.
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Re: Nexuiz.com makeover? Nexuiz going to consoles?
Thu Mar 04, 2010 3:34 am

  • They use the name nexuiz and not a new name because the nexuiz name already has publicity from all the previous releases. More thievery of work.
    I am honestly clueless as to wether this will bring in more players to nexuiz (thats right, this is normal nexuiz) through their advertising we could get publicity, or people will stumble across the console nexuiz game while searching for nexuiz.
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Re: Nexuiz.com makeover? Nexuiz going to consoles?
Thu Mar 04, 2010 9:36 am

  • @TVR: not necessarily a contradiction - to license a name means that you grant someone the right to use it. It doesn't have to be a trade mark for this (requiring registration), in many jurisdictions a name can also receive protection by continuous usage.

    Anyhow what still offends me is that the name Nexuiz has received its value mainly, if not entirely, from efforts that came from developers and contributors from the community. This value is now being sold (by licensing the name), without any apparent intention to give anything back to the community. And this won't change as long as the site nexuiz.com presents itself the way it does currently.

    I'd follow suggestions that were made to have a portal site on nexuiz.com (and maybe even on www.nexuiz.com) that displays both versions equally, one version on the left with a link to that version's site and the other version on the right, with a link to that version's site. How difficult is that? Not at all. This would at least communicate that there is a connection between those two versions, maybe even properly explain what is the difference. That way both versions could benefit from the other version's popularity.

    Anyhow, I still would recommend to use a derivative name for a derivative game.
    <Community>: Why was the name "Nexuiz" licensed to IllFonic in a way that allows IllFonic to use the name without any suffix or subtitle for a commercial console game?
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Re: Nexuiz.com makeover? Nexuiz going to consoles?
Thu Mar 04, 2010 11:17 am

  • Vermeulen wrote:I will update the news on the Nexuiz site linking to the new Illfonic site, once I talk further with the main GPL and Illfonic developers, and can address all the issues.


    Its about f***ing time! I cant actually believe how you sold and betrayed us without telling a single word for most likely months coz of a freaking non-Disclosure-Agreement (omg, what a cheap excuse that is -.-). You maybe be the "father" of Nexuiz, but still i don't think you had the right to make a sellout out of the community. It's a real shame to see how you handled things in this case and i can only hope we are able to stop illfonic by producing as much bad publicity as possible. I don't see any respect here any more. Lets face it: YOU sold US ... you did not just sell the name Nexuiz but you did sell your soul too, i hope you have fun with the devil (illfonics). Although you maybe not the only guy taking part in this deal, you definitly would have been the last one able to STOP this.

    To all those sad and mad guys and girls out there: I can only advice you to spread the word. Don't feel ashamed of what was done to us, but start to FIGHT it! Call newspapers, radio stations, mail to Slashdot, Heise and virtually everyone who could have an open ear for this. We have not yet lost this fight! I dont think they will bring out the console trash, if they have more bad publicity coz of the Name/Title than it helps them to sell the freaking product. Nexuiz-addicts all over the planet: Unite your forces and start to fight! I can only emphasize this: WE DID NOT LOST YET! It's NOT too LATE.

    [EDIT] One last word. The action you have taken in this thread viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6043 (the locking) actually shows there's is NO respect left at all any more here. You want to silent us?!? You will regret that soon, i can promise! What's up with our right about free-speech? You want to be "our friends"? Behind our back you only care as long about us as we can be usefull for you making money. You say you are part of this for a long time (especially Kedhrin) ... seriously: WHAT A JOKE?!? You do not understand about US, the community at all and still you claim and pretend to be part of us and that you respect us. Sorry, but anyone who believes this must be stupid actually
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Re: Nexuiz.com makeover? Nexuiz going to consoles?
Thu Mar 04, 2010 11:29 am

  • Strong words do not help here, they rather make it worse. What makes this community so special, is that it always is open for friendly and civilized discussion. Even though the circumstances are enraging, we should not let ourselves get carried away by emotions. This would do the image of the Nexuiz community more harm than good.

    I am not saying that I don't understand how you feel or that I don't feel the same way, though.
    <Community>: Why was the name "Nexuiz" licensed to IllFonic in a way that allows IllFonic to use the name without any suffix or subtitle for a commercial console game?
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Re: Nexuiz.com makeover? Nexuiz going to consoles?
Thu Mar 04, 2010 11:37 am

  • TVR wrote:
    LordHavoc wrote:... The name is not sold, it is licensed ...


    LordHavoc wrote:... you can use the name Nexuiz without obtaining a trademark approval ...


    Contradiction: As the name was licensed, that implies someone owns it.

    That also implies that someone received money from subcontracting the domain and trademark, a hallmark of corruption in a FOSS project.


    I also would like some clarification of the Nexuiz name and brand.
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Re: Nexuiz.com makeover? Nexuiz going to consoles?
Thu Mar 04, 2010 11:40 am

  • halogene wrote:Strong words do not help here, they rather make it worse. What makes this community so special, is that it always is open for friendly and civilized discussion. Even though the circumstances are enraging, we should not let ourselves get carried away by emotions. This would do the image of the Nexuiz community more harm than good.

    I am not saying that I don't understand how you feel or that I don't feel the same way, though.


    I agree, +1
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Re: Nexuiz.com makeover? Nexuiz going to consoles?
Thu Mar 04, 2010 11:41 am

  • +1 for el_Barto den tunnichtgut
    Aneurysm 4 the win !!!!! :D
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Re: Nexuiz.com makeover? Nexuiz going to consoles?
Thu Mar 04, 2010 11:49 am

  • I'd like to have my say.... Hi mum!
    Only Plays Nexuiz these days.
    And only plays on euroCTF Server :-D
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Re: Nexuiz.com makeover? Nexuiz going to consoles?
Thu Mar 04, 2010 1:22 pm

  • So one day in and censorship has allready been requested?
    How long untill legal action is taken against depreciated-nexuiz?
    I think kendron talked down to the people in this forum as if they were fawning consumers waiting for fish to drop into their mouths from above.
    Most of us have made some content/maps/code/models/etc and know how it's done, and we have, before, worked on nexuiz stuff for "12 hours a day, 7 days a week, for two months", it's called finishing a map, making a game model, texturing stuff etc. His first announcement seemed to be that there would be NO release of ANY media or ANY sourcecode. Like not even a texture pack to fill out what we're missing (mayan textures, blue-tech look, etc). Not even a bone will be thrown.

    It seems he talks to us like we are underlings.
    Oh and since they bought the game code, the quake c, yes you who have contributed to the game code: they're using your stuff AND treating you like a child. Alot of us have contributed at least a few patches.

    Now, vermillion is the one to talk about that because they got an indemnification agreement from him, after he represented himself as copyright owner. Now, ofcourse, they haven't released anything, and even when they do, even if some game code who's ownership was misrepresentated and thusly should be GPL was left in, all they would have to do (I think) would be to release said game code to a purchaser of their game who requested it and there would be no problems. Since there will be less features kept in than depreciated/normal-nexuiz this shouldn't be a problem. However there was an indemnification agreement so ... I dunno I havn't studied indemnifications... but apparently the only one who could be blaimed is vermillion. But... I don't see why one would want to attack a man who started nexuiz and gpl'd it to us in the first place, that would be pretty low.

    Now there apparently is a royalty agreement, and if Illfonic doesn't reneg on that agreement, money will go to vermillion and I have heard that he will then pay it out to the contributors himself. So the deal could be helpful atleast to put "food on the table" of the people who contributed.

    There is fear that that will never happen as media companies rarely pay out royalties they agreed to as it is cheaper to commit accounting fraud and risk a lawsuit that will likely never be filed as lawsuits cost more than the royalties may bring in.

    I just wonder how long untill IllFonic sues us over the name or something else.
    Seems like there's allready a bit of unhappyblood.

    Why was he talking to us like we're children or consumers that don't know anything about the godly art of making videogame content and such.... that's what we _do_. Sure some of us might not be as good as them.... but some of us are (oblivion, morphed, tzork, etc).
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Re: Nexuiz.com makeover? Nexuiz going to consoles?
Thu Mar 04, 2010 3:19 pm

  • halogene wrote:Strong words do not help here, they rather make it worse. What makes this community so special, is that it always is open for friendly and civilized discussion. Even though the circumstances are enraging, we should not let ourselves get carried away by emotions. This would do the image of the Nexuiz community more harm than good.

    I am not saying that I don't understand how you feel or that I don't feel the same way, though.



    But this is a rare moment - almost everyone with the same opinion :D
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Re: Nexuiz.com makeover? Nexuiz going to consoles?
Thu Mar 04, 2010 3:49 pm

  • halogene wrote:Strong words do not help here, they rather make it worse. What makes this community so special, is that it always is open for friendly and civilized discussion. Even though the circumstances are enraging, we should not let ourselves get carried away by emotions. This would do the image of the Nexuiz community more harm than good.

    I am not saying that I don't understand how you feel or that I don't feel the same way, though.


    Well this is one of those rare times where it actually could help. Its painfully obvious that IllFonic driving force in this is money, not that theres anything wrong with that in itself, but in this case its been allowed roll over all traces of reason, respect and plain manners on their behalf. Anyways, the point is that there are more then likely investors behind illfonics, "making" them use those NDA for example. If the shitstorm around IllFonic's Nexuiz reaches large enough proportions those investors may start to pressure IllFonic to do something abt it, witch in turn may finally make them realize they have to start treating the Nexuiz community with the respect it deserves and possibly even (lolright) offer something back.

    So, if you like Nexuiz, and free software and plain manners.. Let your voice be heard! This deal is rotten to to core and everyone with half a brain will realize that when reading about it. Lets not stand idle by when commercial forces are allowed to trample on GPL and rape-murder one of the best fps gamer communities ever to exist.

    Rage Against the Machine wrote:It has to start somewhere, It has to start sometime.
    What better place than here, what better time than now?


    Its on.
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Re: Nexuiz.com makeover? Nexuiz going to consoles?
Thu Mar 04, 2010 4:02 pm

  • Added kendron as foe.
    I have left this website with the rest of the GPL Nexuiz community. You can find us at Xonotic.org
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Re: Nexuiz.com makeover? Nexuiz going to consoles?
Thu Mar 04, 2010 4:12 pm
Re: Nexuiz.com makeover? Nexuiz going to consoles?
Thu Mar 04, 2010 4:25 pm

  • halogene wrote:Strong words do not help here, they rather make it worse.

    tZork wrote:Well this is one of those rare times where it actually could help.

    I am not saying that we shouldn't spread the word. As I said in another thread publicity might be able to influence marketing decisions. But we have to make sure we communicate what has happened in a civilized manner. When we spread this with emotions flying high, many people will not even bother to read that stuff and think "oh boy, another troll".

    In my opinion we should clearly state what has happened, how the community feels about it and how the community's efforts to find a compromise solution has been dealt with. In no event we should go shouting "CONSOLE NEXUIZ IS STOLEN IP!!!!111 DON'T BUY IT!!!111One!!!" In my opinion this just doesn't sound serious, no matter how well I can understand the urge to say something like that.

    How about we work on an "official" press release kind of text that we can put onto other forums? Something that would be also suitable for slashdot and other news sites? Obviously it can't be an official press release, since the owner of the Nexuiz name and the "leader" of this project won't probably agree with what is contained in such a statement. If people think this is a good idea I would volounteer to make a text proposal.
    <Community>: Why was the name "Nexuiz" licensed to IllFonic in a way that allows IllFonic to use the name without any suffix or subtitle for a commercial console game?
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Re: Nexuiz.com makeover? Nexuiz going to consoles?
Thu Mar 04, 2010 4:36 pm

  • halogene wrote:How about we work on an "official" press release kind of text that we can put onto other forums? Something that would be also suitable for slashdot and other news sites? Obviously it can't be an official press release, since the owner of the Nexuiz name and the "leader" of this project won't probably agree with what is contained in such a statement. If people think this is a good idea I would volounteer to make a text proposal.

    I agree.
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Re: Nexuiz.com makeover? Nexuiz going to consoles?
Thu Mar 04, 2010 4:39 pm

  • FruitieX wrote:
    halogene wrote:How about we work on an "official" press release kind of text that we can put onto other forums? Something that would be also suitable for slashdot and other news sites? Obviously it can't be an official press release, since the owner of the Nexuiz name and the "leader" of this project won't probably agree with what is contained in such a statement. If people think this is a good idea I would volounteer to make a text proposal.

    I agree.

    Yap, nice one :)
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Re: Nexuiz.com makeover? Nexuiz going to consoles?
Thu Mar 04, 2010 4:40 pm

  • Notice how Kendron kept saying that there will be NO release of code OR content back to the community.
    None. This is almost the first thing he said. Not one shred.
    Not even a texture pack or anything. Not a drop.

    So he comes out immediatly disrespectful.

    Then he talks about how he's not going to release ANY of his hard work of 2 months because he has bills to pay. (Not one drop)
    But we have been doing EXACTLY THAT for way more than 2 months... kinda like four years atleast.

    Then he talks about how he's going to add new things to the website, which we should be pumped and excited about. We had lots of things on the website, it was he and his crew that changed the website to a flash graphic. We should be exicted to regain what we allready had?

    Then he talks about US being pumped about features they will add to Nexuiz (not gpl nexuiz, no, the REAL nexuiz, not OUR imposter gpl nexuiz). Features that we allready have in Prefix-Nexuiz. And this is supposed to smooth everything over, that they are adding features to Nexuiz (their game) (remember, gpl-nexuiz isn't _Nexuiz_ anymore)

    Then when people still want something given back he has the thread locked and tells us basically (tells C.Brutilusss) "tough luck, you should love us anyway, ps we're making our own forums". Basically he wants us silent and gone, the Nexuiz community. With this reception ONE DAY into the "deal"... what's it going to be a year from now when they're releasing, we going to be sued to take down our forum, or any mention of GPL-Nexuiz? We going to be silenced and attempted to be destroyed?

    He seems to be arrogant, elitist, and doesn't understand that he's dealing with people that do, with their own time, what he does. We make games. You make games. We add to this game and make it better.

    It's funny, the whole "you're taking food from my mouth if I give back any scrap to your community" thing... when we've been giving away our work for YEARS, some of us have made a full time job of it. And he thinks his 12 hours a day for 2 months thing could hold ANY sway here? All of us who have even worked on a lowly map have worked longer hours than that... the the progammers like div0... absolutely immense amounts of time and effort put in that would tally into the tens of millions of dollars... an example: just this last month with div0's warpzones... that code is worth, in developer time, I think it was like a million or so, if you hired someone to do it (and most teams could NOT code what div0 has coded: they don't have the know-how or the knowledge). Then think of tzorks turrets and vehichles too. Morphed's models. The music and sounds... and this guy comes in and says he isn't releasing ANYTHING back because he has bills to pay and he's paying alot of money??? We've given away, figurativly, a fortune... and he can't even give just alittle of whatever he's making... when he's building it off of the work of those who coded and such for nexuiz. Doesn't make sence to me, doesnt' seem respectful, doesn't seem mutually benificial at all.
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Re: Nexuiz.com makeover? Nexuiz going to consoles?
Thu Mar 04, 2010 4:46 pm

  • FruitieX wrote:
    halogene wrote:How about we work on an "official" press release kind of text that we can put onto other forums? Something that would be also suitable for slashdot and other news sites? Obviously it can't be an official press release, since the owner of the Nexuiz name and the "leader" of this project won't probably agree with what is contained in such a statement. If people think this is a good idea I would volounteer to make a text proposal.
    I agree.

    Aye, I suggest we collaborate around this HERE.
    [Want to develop? Look HERE]. Image Image Gif sauce.
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Re: Nexuiz.com makeover? Nexuiz going to consoles?
Thu Mar 04, 2010 4:55 pm

  • halogene wrote:
    halogene wrote:Strong words do not help here, they rather make it worse.

    tZork wrote:Well this is one of those rare times where it actually could help.

    In my opinion we should clearly state what has happened, how the community feels about it and how the community's efforts to find a compromise solution has been dealt with. In no event we should go shouting "CONSOLE NEXUIZ IS STOLEN IP!!!!111 DON'T BUY IT!!!111One!!!" In my opinion this just doesn't sound serious, no matter how well I can understand the urge to say something like that.


    This sig was rushed, I put in the website URL on it hoping somebody will follow it and see what I am talking about. I'll probably start a thread strictly to add to what I said on it and put the link on it.
    I have left this website with the rest of the GPL Nexuiz community. You can find us at Xonotic.org
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Re: Nexuiz.com makeover? Nexuiz going to consoles?
Thu Mar 04, 2010 5:00 pm

  • Alright. I'll be offline for the next couple of hours, but I'll get into this in maybe three hours from now, or, if that fails, tomorrow during the day (CET).
    <Community>: Why was the name "Nexuiz" licensed to IllFonic in a way that allows IllFonic to use the name without any suffix or subtitle for a commercial console game?
    <Lee Vermeulen>:
    <Community>: http://www.xonotic.org
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    halogene
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Re: Nexuiz.com makeover? Nexuiz going to consoles?
Thu Mar 04, 2010 5:05 pm

  • Lee_Stricklin wrote:This sig was rushed, I put in the website URL on it hoping somebody will follow it and see what I am talking about. I'll probably start a thread strictly to add to what I said on it and put the link on it.

    Yeah sorry mate for the kind of obvious reference, I didn't mean to attack you but your sig just jumped into my eyes and I couldn't help the troll association. Don't get me wrong, I don't think you are one, but if I hadn't read a couple of posts of you before, I probably would have thought you were one. :o)
    <Community>: Why was the name "Nexuiz" licensed to IllFonic in a way that allows IllFonic to use the name without any suffix or subtitle for a commercial console game?
    <Lee Vermeulen>:
    <Community>: http://www.xonotic.org
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    halogene
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Re: Nexuiz.com makeover? Nexuiz going to consoles?
Fri Mar 05, 2010 7:16 am

  • To Paperclips : I signed the petition link you posted . just reinforcing it with my sig here as well
    Master ? Do you call me Grasshopper because I am cunning and stealthy?
    NO ! Because you are Ugree , Rike insect !
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    Grasshopper
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Re: Nexuiz.com makeover? Nexuiz going to consoles?
Fri Mar 05, 2010 8:21 am

  • A nice, concise summary of the happenings and a message from the current community is very needed. This is not only Nexuiz related, but has bigger implications. As far as I know it's the first of a kind in the open source gaming community and open source in general. I'm sure many would be interested to hear about what has happened here.

    Is there a neutral place where Nexuiz fans can discuss and together write a sort of a press release? These forums don't seem to be in proper hands anymore, if threads get closed due to google search result ranking. C.Brutail and halogene, you two in particular show you can think soberly despite everything. Can we start PMing or emailing or simply finding a place where we can form the community press release? Naturally everything would be public, but we have to start getting organized. If yes, please email me nobelburek@gmail.com so we have contacts. First thing would be to find a proper place, where people could discuss the press release. Perhaps a google group or an IRC channel or a place where the press release proposal can be saved and publicly viewed until it's sent into the wild.

    I know it might sound a bit too fast, but it's time things get rolling.
    Lamoot
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