From my knowledge, the weapons have never been balanced since 1.5, are there any plans to actually deliver, or is it just a running, advertising, gag?

Should the weapons be perfectly balanced, or should it follow the weapon tier shown on the GUI context menu?

Is anything planned for the Hagar, or the Crylink? [Which are both far from being 'comfort' weapons]

They have been rebalanced with each release, and yes, there have been changes, for example to the shotgun spread and the crylink (got faster).

In Key Hunt, the Hagar seems to even be the top weapon: http://mensa.ath.cx/~polzer/nexlog/modetotals.kh.html, while on the CTF maps, the Nex seems to own - well, obvious, on CTF you often have larger distances to shoot, while KH is short range oriented.

not to mention the extreme changes to the electro at 2.3 release .) the primary refire is shitloads faster.

Of course the weapons have been changed for each release, but it doesn't necessarily mean balanced compared to the other weapons.

Care to answer my inquiries, please?

The balance is perfect.

Anyone can use any weapon to kill anyone else with any other weapon.

Normally, you would be whacked for stating that; however your charisma reaches Reality Distortion Field levels, therefore I can't see the phone keys clearly enough to send an assailant to your conveniently advertised location, Dave.

TVR wrote:Of course the weapons have been changed for each release, but it doesn't necessarily mean balanced compared to the other weapons.

Care to answer my inquiries, please?

I did, they are intended to be totally balanced, but depending on map, balance is different. Only exceptions are the shotgun (it is intended to be weaker than the other weapons, because it is the starting weapon) and the laser (well, it's for special uses like jumping, not mainly for killing).

Statistically, the worst are SG and Laser, then Crylink and Electro are about on the same level, and above them there's the Mortar, and above all these, there's the totally balanced group of four Nex, RL, Hagar, MG (that is, these four are always the first four, but their order depends on the map).

However, statistics aren't everything - and the Mortar is good in some hands that can use it - I prefer it over the RL because it is much harder to dodge. The electro combo has to be mastered too and not just used for senseless spamming, and the Crylink is surprisingly effective if you know when to use primary and when to use secondary fire.

Actually, I wonder why the Hagar is so good in the stats that it got first place on the Key Hunt server - I suspect some people reduce effect quality to be able to use the Hagar, or they get less annoyed by its explosions always blocking the view. I can't use it.

So assume you have a player that can use the Crylink and the Electro well, he would win against RL users without big trouble. The Electro primary is actually quite similar to the Q3A rocket launcher, and the secondary can be used similarily to the GES BioRifle to block areas, but also similarily to the ASMD to do great damage at once. And the Crylink... it is for close range only. Primary deals some damage without needing to aim, while secondary has to be aimed. A secondary shot is often lethal from short distance, and even when a bit more away, it still can be quite useful (at least the center shot) to keep campers away - even though the single pellet it isn't that strong, it isn't loud and perfectly aimed (use zoom), so you can use it against snipers and it isn't as obnoxious as the laser.

Very same with me div, mortar is much better then hagar (hagar is useless in my hands) and electro is my 3rd most used wep for likk (after RL and NEX) last time i checked my stats.

I believe the haggar is lacking something, either damage or ammo usage.

The nex I feel should be the only gun that guarantees a one shot kill. Right now that gun seems to be the RL. If the refire rate has to be increased to balance it, I would not mind.

[TSA] Psychiccyberfreak wrote:I believe the haggar is lacking The nex I feel should be the only gun that guarantees a one shot kill. Right now that gun seems to be the RL. If the refire rate has to be increased to balance it, I would not mind.

I agree with this one. I think the RL fires off rockets altogether way too fast. IMO, the RL shouldn't be a close range weapon, but a very powerful (huge splash & dmg), very slow moving, and very difficult to obtain superweapon. It would be the most powerful weapon in the game, but not dominate it, because it would spawn so infrequently with so few rounds. Something like the Redeemer in UT2k4. Such a weapon would also allow for much more tactical use of the RL.
The mid air detonation is great though.

heres my weaponrant

shotty: just remove it as a start weapon if it has to be this useless. you need to shove it down the troat of yer target to have any kinda chance of doing noticable damage.

machinegun: firemodes to similar. more spread and rof on prim, less on secodary. to mutch start ammo, pickups are rarel needed.

electro/greneade launcher: secondary firemodes to similar. yes electro got a combo, but you can set off boucy nades with prim ones too. sticky electro blobs is one easy way to make em a lil diffrent. i also think the gl has a to high dmg/sec (considering its large radius and force)

nexgun: Firaly good as is, but the fast reload by swithcing and back is kinda silly. i would not min less dmg, FORCE and a bit less refire tho.

hagar: hard to use, ammo drainer. perhaps making the visible explotion smaller could help a bit.. once you start fiering you loose sight of yer target. less dmg/higher rof is interesting too, but may be bad for networking.

rl: secondary is as wasted as the one on the nexgun. detornation could well be a key on its own. the newtonian style projectiles made it mutch more interesting in 2.3 perhaps too interesting

Div0, if the weapon balance is not unilateral across all maps, wouldn't it only be theoretically balanced then?

I've also noticed a contradiction in your rebuttal, you've actually segregated the weapons on to different levels;
could this mean that only weapons within each category, balanced among each other?

It is great that you noticed usability, or 'ease of use'' rating of each weapon, this is without a doubt, one of the major factors dictating whether a weapon is preferred, or deferred;
however I wished that you would have considered the usability [how easy it is learn], compared to the actual damage rate.

Now my personal beliefs about the current state of the weapons, follow:

Laser: Nothing but a trick jumping device, just as hard using from close, to medium, to far ranges; similar difficulty to a Nex in suppression capability;
however it can be used as an ultra-light fire support weapon for CTF in terms to the grenade launcher.

Shotgun: Potential damage severely reduced in 2.3, reaching almost insane to be used close-range weapon.

Machine Gun: Very easy to use, all purpose weapon.

Grenade Launcher: Best used at close range to avoid the arc factor, seemingly over-powered in speed, damage,
and refire compared to other explosive weapons.

Electro: Powerful with or without the combo, the electro fire modes are better off used seperately now,
depending on the network latency.

Crylink: Still incredibly difficult to use [Low overall coverage with the primary],
the secondary is the significantly more useful, especially as a sniper suppression weapon [would be nice if less ammo was consumed per shot].

Nex: Only practical at long-range sniping now, the long refire time and lower damage make it unfavourable as a close range weapon.
Circumventing the the refire time by quickly switch to and from a weapon is a sign of uselessness.

Hagar: Useful in extremely cramped hallways [hal_palindrome is a poster example]; in open-spaces,
the rocket projectiles are too slow to accurately hit a moving target. Secondary fire need a massive revamp.

Rocket Launcher: Easily the most powerful weapon now; due to the Newtonian projectile physics,
dodging the rockets, is impossible; a considerable speed or refire deduction would be required to level it out.

Think about the usage of fast explosive wpns (Hagar) vs. SLow explosive wpns (Rocketlauncher), because of the effect that your explosions detonate the enemies projectiles. This waythe hagar can disable the enemies rocketlauncher.

Rocketluancher may be very strong, but it is really isn't fast and because of this at leat a bit dodgable, at least in mid range fights (well at close range you're lost , unless you have the hagar)

TVR wrote:Div0, if the weapon balance is not unilateral across all maps, wouldn't it only be theoretically balanced then?

Yes, but it is impossible to make the weapons balanced on all maps at once. Especially look at the Nex - it is intended for long range use only, so what use is it on small maps?

I've also noticed a contradiction in your rebuttal, you've actually segregated the weapons on to different levels;
could this mean that only weapons within each category, balanced among each other?

Actually, I consider them still balanced - the different levels appear because of different usability. Main problem with the Crylink is IMHO not the damage it does, but that it looks silly and anything but strong. Of course nobody tries learning how to use it...

It is great that you noticed usability, or 'ease of use'' rating of each weapon, this is without a doubt, one of the major factors dictating whether a weapon is preferred, or deferred;
however I wished that you would have considered the usability [how easy it is learn], compared to the actual damage rate.

I don't like the idea of using calculations to rate weapons - LordHavoc always believes such numbers, but in actual gameplay it's different.

Now my personal beliefs about the current state of the weapons, follow:

Laser: Nothing but a trick jumping device, just as hard using from close, to medium, to far ranges; similar difficulty to a Nex in suppression capability;
however it can be used as an ultra-light fire support weapon for CTF in terms to the grenade launcher.

Laser was never intended as a weapon. It is a trick jumping device that also does some damage.

Shotgun: Potential damage severely reduced in 2.3, reaching almost insane to be used close-range weapon.

It isn't that bad, and it works quite well in my hands.

Machine Gun: Very easy to use, all purpose weapon.

Yes, maybe too many purposes. Not sure if secondary should really have no spread and thus be useful for long range.

Grenade Launcher: Best used at close range to avoid the arc factor, seemingly over-powered in speed, damage,
and refire compared to other explosive weapons.

From the numbers I would say it is overpowered, but why is it below RL/Nex/Hagar/MG in the stats then?

Crylink: Still incredibly difficult to use [Low overall coverage with the primary],
the secondary is the significantly more useful, especially as a sniper suppression weapon [would be nice if less ammo was consumed per shot].

Well, I learned how to use both modes... it is in fact possible.

Nex: Only practical at long-range sniping now, the long refire time and lower damage make it unfavourable as a close range weapon.
Circumventing the the refire time by quickly switch to and from a weapon is a sign of uselessness.

Yes, that bug needs to get fixed. Whoever implemented that anyway, esteel?

And it is intended that the Nex is for long range only. It otherwise is really overpowered.

Hagar: Useful in extremely cramped hallways [hal_palindrome is a poster example]; in open-spaces,
the rocket projectiles are too slow to accurately hit a moving target. Secondary fire need a massive revamp.

Just... what?

Rocket Launcher: Easily the most powerful weapon now; due to the Newtonian projectile physics,
dodging the rockets, is impossible; a considerable speed or refire deduction would be required to level it out.

I don't consider it that strong from my experience. Maybe because of the high risk of self damage...

MG is redicolously overpowered on large open maps (like gretwall)

I still think Crylink sould be armour-pierceng, it would make it much more tactical, and add lots of uniqueness to it.

divVerent wrote:...
Actually, I consider them still balanced - the different levels appear because of different usability. Main problem with the Crylink is IMHO not the damage it does, but that it looks silly and anything but strong. Of course nobody tries learning how to use it...

After reading your post above about the Crylink I tried to use its 2nd fire in some 1on1 games and must say I was pretty suprised how effective it is. Even in midrange u can take an enemy out with it with ease.
And you are right with that comment too: it doesnt look that strong. Without reading here I wouldnt have give it a try...

Yes the crylink is hard to use, but once you do start to hit with it it does real good damage. specialy if you get the leading/prediction right with the primary. i would not mind the primary fiering in a fixed pattern tho, its hard enougth to get it right w/o teh random pattern.

I actually love the crylink. Its much more effective at close range than the shotgun, and the secondary is ok for long range even. My only problems with it are the weapon model, which does not suit it, and the secondary fire.

IMO, a better secondary fire for the crylink would be like the MG's firing, but very innacurate. That is to say, very fast, concentrated power, without the pinpoint accuracy of the MG. Right now, I can't think of any where one would use the Crylink nstead of the MG's secondary, because of the strange line of bullets it spits out.

divVerent wrote:Yes, that bug needs to get fixed. Whoever implemented that anyway, esteel?

Actually it was you..
http://svn.icculus.org/nexuiz/trunk/dat ... nsystem.qc
I just fixed it to not be exploidable and only set refire time to 1second if switched.
http://svn.icculus.org/nexuiz/trunk/dat ... nsystem.qc

If you still want this switching feature without being 'exploidable' we need refire fields for each gun or some kind of array so that each gun controls its own refire time but switching to an other gun does work..

or your force the gun to stay until the reload has finished. However, if you do so, make sure that it stacks future weapon changes and executes them once reload is over.

So if I fired nexgun I could press "c" for switching to laser while it is reloading, and once reloading finished it will automatically switch to the laser. This way one doesn't have to "time" the weapon switch too.

OTOH I don't really get which "bug" you guys are talking about. I though it was intended that reload time could be shortened to 1 sec (instead of waiting for the whole 1.5 seconds) by switching to another weapon and switching back again.

I'll comment on the weapons that I feel need improvement.

Laser - I've joked often about how "Nexuiz CTF" mode should be renamed "Nexuiz - Laser jump" because of how much that skill dominates any of the others in CTF. The advanced laser jumping players move way too fast. When they get going, it's difficult to stop them. Unless you are also an awesome laser jumper, or you happen to have a Nex or maybe a Mortar, then you are usually S.O.L. Even with a Nex or mortar, it's still very difficult to stop them.

My Suggestion - Reduce the max speed of players. There's no reason for them to move that fast. Or add landing damage...if they jump too high, too far, or too fast, they could take extra damage as soon as they land (even if they laser immediately upon landing). Rocket Jumping from Q2 was acceptable because it was balanced by the amount of damage that you received from using it. Because of that, it was not abused like laser jumping in Nexuiz seems to be. Perhaps the laser should take a little more damage from the player who is it.

Machine gun - This gun is frustrating because someone with very little skill can spray bullets at you and it's really difficult to avoid getting hit by them. This helps to ruin maps like Greatwall, IMO, where there are big open areas. Everyone in the base will use a machine gun and you get sprayed down with bullets within 3 seconds of entering the base. That is, unless you are a laser jumping god, which it appears only 0.002% of the Nexuiz community happens to be.

My suggestion - I'm not sure why this weapon is an instant hit weapon (don't remember the official term for that). A real gun doesn't hit instantly. There is a slight delay for the bullet to hit the target, even if it's in milliseconds. Giving the bullets a tad bit of delay would help. I'm not entirely sure what could help this weapon. The concept of it is that of a "hold down button and spray" weapon. Maybe look to real life to see why soldiers don't hold the trigger and spray bullets with a real machine gun. Maybe their accuracy gets worse the longer they hold the trigger. Maybe they run out of ammo too quickly. Maybe the gun overheats if the trigger is held too long. Those are some things to consider.

Mortar - Too powerful. Why do the stats show it lower than the other weapons? Because people don't know how to use it. That does not mean that it isn't powerful. I learned how powerful it was by playing and watching more experienced players (esteel, Dave) and watching demos of the better players (kojn). They all demonstrate how powerful it is. I've learned to use it more and more over the past couple of months. The only acceptable aspect of the mortar is the launch speed. In CTF, this weapon is very useful because it is one of the few weapons that can stop one of those speedy laser jumping freaks that move at 1000MPH away with the flag. The RL is way too slow for that. Other weapons are too slow or too weak to kill them at that distance.

My Suggestion Keep the speed as is, but slow down the reload a tad. Secondary fire is fine the way it is.

Another alternative - Limit the max-speed of travel for CTF players (as mentioned above). When they move that fast, it's difficult to stop them with anything but a Nex or a Mortar...or *maybe* the electro if you're lucky. If that happens, then the speed of the mortar projectile could slow down a tad and make it more balanced with the other weapons.

Rocket Launcher - This could use some slight adjustments .I would drop the power of this weapon slightly, and then maybe pick up the speed of the projectile slightly. Nothing huge...just small tweaks. Also, the right click detonation should be a little weaker than the primary fire. There has to be some trade-off for right click detonation...because it is really too powerful. The RL would be more powerful if people knew about the right click detonation feature (MANY people don't use it). Maybe if the speed of the rocket was faster, it would be harder to time the detonation?

Finally..

I think it would be great if there were some test version, or a test server, or a mod or something where we could test out differen't variations of the weapons. This would help to workout the details of weapons balancing. I have no idea what this would entail just yet, but all of these suggested changes are theoretical at this point. I don't know if my own suggestions suck or not, and it would be great if I could find out somehow.

Wow, I'm too lazy to quote so all this applies to Dokujisan's response about speed. I completely disagree and would probably stop playing the game if it got any slower. If anything the game could be a little faster (Spidflisk Mod). And you CAN stop those who laser jump...RBI is a good example. When you have players on the same skill they know how to stop them. Also CTF is a TEAM game. Coordinate your players so that they aren't all standing in front of the flag where someone can hop in grab it then hop out. There are always entries and exits to a base...cover those and you should have a chance of stopping the person from capturing.

Why take away the things that make Nexuiz unique? The laser is a great idea that no other game has implemented. Utilize it, don't punish those who spend X amount of time mastering the skill required to be good with it.

In addition to the weapon balancing and a server to test it on...Spidflisk. I can't say that enough. Spidflisk mod has already done this and has had these changes for some time. People always bitch about the movement....my god there are over 100 changes and all you can see is the movement?

I do agree that the RL, Mortar, Electro, and Nex need to be tweaked. Those are very powerful weapons with Huge radius damage (Nex exlcuded).

Also, anytime I'm on Spidflisk or in IRC and someone would like to play on Spidflisk without the friction set to 3, just ask me and I'd be happy to change it for you. I'm sure that most would appreciate the mod more with friction set to 5 (Nexuiz Standard), which is unfortunate that one cvar is causing this.

divVerent wrote:

TVR wrote:Div0, if the weapon balance is not unilateral across all maps, wouldn't it only be theoretically balanced then?

Yes, but it is impossible to make the weapons balanced on all maps at once. Especially look at the Nex - it is intended for long range use only, so what use is it on small maps?

Wouldn't this imply that the weapons' advantages and disadvantages are averaged across all the maps, or does that imply that the weapons are only balanced in a box map, e.g. Egg&Bacon?; besides the Nex was useful on small maps [think assault rail-cannon]

divVerent wrote:

I've also noticed a contradiction in your rebuttal, you've actually segregated the weapons on to different levels;
could this mean that only weapons within each category, balanced among each other?

Actually, I consider them still balanced - the different levels appear because of different usability. Main problem with the Crylink is IMHO not the damage it does, but that it looks silly and anything but strong. Of course nobody tries learning how to use it...

Who hasn't tried learning how to use the Crylink before? The problem is it unintuitive.

divVerent wrote:

It is great that you noticed usability, or 'ease of use'' rating of each weapon, this is without a doubt, one of the major factors dictating whether a weapon is preferred, or deferred;
however I wished that you would have considered the usability [how easy it is learn], compared to the actual damage rate.

I don't like the idea of using calculations to rate weapons - LordHavoc always believes such numbers, but in actual gameplay it's different.

Example: If the Hagar's DPS was reduced to maybe... 10 over the RL's DPS, and the projectile speed was increased accordingly, it wouldn't be surprising to see more usage of the Hagar.

divVerent wrote:

Now my personal beliefs about the current state of the weapons, follow:

Laser: Nothing but a trick jumping device, just as hard using from close, to medium, to far ranges; similar difficulty to a Nex in suppression capability;
however it can be used as an ultra-light fire support weapon for CTF in terms to the grenade launcher.

Laser was never intended as a weapon. It is a trick jumping device that also does some damage.

Did I ever mention it was suppose to be a combat weapon?

divVerent wrote:

Shotgun: Potential damage severely reduced in 2.3, reaching almost insane to be used close-range weapon.

It isn't that bad, and it works quite well in my hands.

It used to work in my hands, and probably much better in yours.

divVerent wrote:

Machine Gun: Very easy to use, all purpose weapon.

Yes, maybe too many purposes. Not sure if secondary should really have no spread and thus be useful for long range.

I can't seem to stress that this is the only weapon capable of stopping Xeno-style escapes, due to it's hitscan bullets, fast refire, and low spead.

divVerent wrote:

Grenade Launcher: Best used at close range to avoid the arc factor, seemingly over-powered in speed, damage,
and refire compared to other explosive weapons.

From the numbers I would say it is overpowered, but why is it below RL/Nex/Hagar/MG in the stats then?

It's naturally unintuitive, which was implied in the arc factor; but at close range, the arc is neligable.

divVerent wrote:

Crylink: Still incredibly difficult to use [Low overall coverage with the primary],
the secondary is the significantly more useful, especially as a sniper suppression weapon [would be nice if less ammo was consumed per shot].

Well, I learned how to use both modes... it is in fact possible.

Of course it is possible, we have all tried at least once; however the projectiles are too slow, do such little damage, and have a high refire time, that it is unimaginably difficult to use.

divVerent wrote:

Nex: Only practical at long-range sniping now, the long refire time and lower damage make it unfavourable as a close range weapon.
Circumventing the the refire time by quickly switch to and from a weapon is a sign of uselessness.

Yes, that bug needs to get fixed. Whoever implemented that anyway, esteel?

And it is intended that the Nex is for long range only. It otherwise is really overpowered.

I can't believe that this was touted as a feature; OTOH, the Nex is still usable at close ranges with a low ping.

divVerent wrote:

Hagar: Useful in extremely cramped hallways [hal_palindrome is a poster example]; in open-spaces,
the rocket projectiles are too slow to accurately hit a moving target. Secondary fire needs a massive revamp.

Just... what?

Simplified: Hagar is only useful on hal_palindrome, because of the cramped corridors; in W I D E spaces, the rockets are too slow to hit a moving target.

divVerent wrote:

Rocket Launcher: Easily the most powerful weapon now; due to the Newtonian projectile physics,
dodging the rockets, is impossible; a considerable speed or refire deduction would be required to level it out.

I don't consider it that strong from my experience. Maybe because of the high risk of self damage...

Which now happens to be reduced also due to semi-Newtonian physics causing the rocket to impact before you can reach the space.

TVR wrote:

divVerent wrote:

TVR wrote:Div0, if the weapon balance is not unilateral across all maps, wouldn't it only be theoretically balanced then?

Yes, but it is impossible to make the weapons balanced on all maps at once. Especially look at the Nex - it is intended for long range use only, so what use is it on small maps?

Wouldn't this imply that the weapons' advantages and disadvantages are averaged across all the maps, or does that imply that the weapons are only balanced in a box map, e.g. Egg&Bacon?; besides the Nex was useful on small maps [think assault rail-cannon]

Averaged across the maps. On some maps, one weapon rules, on some, the other does. But that's obvious, each weapon has its own advantages and disadvantages. If that weren't the case, why would you then have more than one weapon?

divVerent wrote:

Now my personal beliefs about the current state of the weapons, follow:

Laser: Nothing but a trick jumping device, just as hard using from close, to medium, to far ranges; similar difficulty to a Nex in suppression capability;
however it can be used as an ultra-light fire support weapon for CTF in terms to the grenade launcher.

Laser was never intended as a weapon. It is a trick jumping device that also does some damage.

Did I ever mention it was suppose to be a combat weapon?

Who told you that? And if it were, it would be quite overpowered, as it uses no ammo.

divVerent wrote:

Nex: Only practical at long-range sniping now, the long refire time and lower damage make it unfavourable as a close range weapon.
Circumventing the the refire time by quickly switch to and from a weapon is a sign of uselessness.

Yes, that bug needs to get fixed. Whoever implemented that anyway, esteel?

And it is intended that the Nex is for long range only. It otherwise is really overpowered.

I can't believe that this was touted as a feature; OTOH, the Nex is still usable at close ranges with a low ping.

You consider it a bug that the Nex now is useless at short range? Of course that's a feature - look at other games. Many games don't even show a crosshair on a sniper rifle when you haven't zoomed in, and without doubt, the Nex is the equivalent to a sniper rifle.

Simplified: Hagar is only useful on hal_palindrome, because of the cramped corridors; in W I D E spaces, the rockets are too slow to hit a moving target.

Of course, you don't seem to understand. Each weapon is supposed to have a different purpose, but they are supposed to be balanced on average. Laser and shotgun, being the starting weapons, are exceptions, so freshly spawned players are not too strong immediately. A typical problem in CTF is that you need to kill the same defender multiple times because he always respawns in front of your nose. To make this problem not that big, the shotgun and laser can't be too strong.

divVerent wrote:

TVR wrote:

divVerent wrote:

TVR wrote:Div0, if the weapon balance is not unilateral across all maps, wouldn't it only be theoretically balanced then?

Yes, but it is impossible to make the weapons balanced on all maps at once. Especially look at the Nex - it is intended for long range use only, so what use is it on small maps?

Wouldn't this imply that the weapons' advantages and disadvantages are averaged across all the maps, or does that imply that the weapons are only balanced in a box map, e.g. Egg&Bacon?; besides the Nex was useful on small maps [think assault rail-cannon]

Averaged across the maps. On some maps, one weapon rules, on some, the other does. But that's obvious, each weapon has its own advantages and disadvantages. If that weren't the case, why would you then have more than one weapon?

The post meant, on which maps are the weapons balanced? Averaged across all the maps, or are the weapons only balanced on a box map?

divVerent wrote:

divVerent wrote:

Now my personal beliefs about the current state of the weapons, follow:

Laser: Nothing but a trick jumping device, just as hard using from close, to medium, to far ranges; similar difficulty to a Nex in suppression capability;
however it can be used as an ultra-light fire support weapon for CTF in terms to the grenade launcher.

Laser was never intended as a weapon. It is a trick jumping device that also does some damage.

Did I ever mention it was suppose to be a combat weapon?

Who told you that? And if it were, it would be quite overpowered, as it uses no ammo.

..? If the laser weapon were a combat weapon, you could always factor the ammo usage into the balancing.

divVerent wrote:

divVerent wrote:

Nex: Only practical at long-range sniping now, the long refire time and lower damage make it unfavourable as a close range weapon.
Circumventing the the refire time by quickly switch to and from a weapon is a sign of uselessness.

Yes, that bug needs to get fixed. Whoever implemented that anyway, esteel?

And it is intended that the Nex is for long range only. It otherwise is really overpowered.

I can't believe that this was touted as a feature; OTOH, the Nex is still usable at close ranges with a low ping.

You consider it a bug that the Nex now is useless at short range? Of course that's a feature - look at other games. Many games don't even show a crosshair on a sniper rifle when you haven't zoomed in, and without doubt, the Nex is the equivalent to a sniper rifle.

I was referring to the weapon switching clearing the accumulated refire time on the Nex, besides if the Nex were a sniper rifle equivalent, it would need more magnification by default; although the Nex shouldn't be overpowered at close ranges, it shouldn't be only useful at long ranges [think DM currently].

divVerent wrote:

Simplified: Hagar is only useful on hal_palindrome, because of the cramped corridors; in W I D E spaces, the rockets are too slow to hit a moving target.

Of course, you don't seem to understand. Each weapon is supposed to have a different purpose, but they are supposed to be balanced on average. Laser and shotgun, being the starting weapons, are exceptions, so freshly spawned players are not too strong immediately. A typical problem in CTF is that you need to kill the same defender multiple times because he always respawns in front of your nose. To make this problem not that big, the shotgun and laser can't be too strong.

Indeed, but the Hagar is almost completely useless on most of the Nexuiz maps currently, only hal_palindrome defers; therefore it isn't actually balanced on average, now is it?

TVR wrote:The post meant, on which maps are the weapons balanced? Averaged across all the maps, or are the weapons only balanced on a box map?

As I said - on average.

I was referring to the weapon switching clearing the accumulated refire time on the Nex, besides if the Nex were a sniper rifle equivalent, it would need more magnification by default; although the Nex shouldn't be overpowered at close ranges, it shouldn't be only useful at long ranges [think DM currently].

Yes, I think this should be fixed - just, how?

Indeed, but the Hagar is almost completely useless on most of the Nexuiz maps currently, only hal_palindrome defers; therefore it isn't actually balanced on average, now is it?

That's what we both experience when playing... however, the stats tell you otherwise:

ctf_Darkzonectf, kh_Darkzonectf - Hagar owns with HUGE distance
ctf_eggandbacon - Hagar on place 2 with only the MG in front of it
ctf_hourglass - Hagar and Mortar tied on place 1
ctf_tznex01 - Hagar owns
ctf_vitamea - Hagar owns with HUGE distance
kh_70mm13_03 - Hagar owns
kh_darkcity - Hagar owns
kh_nexdmlc1 - Hagar owns
kh_nexdmlc2 - Hagar and RL tied on place 1
kh_shdwdm1 - Hagar and RL tied on place 1
kh_silvercity - Hagar owns
kh_stormkeep - Hagar and RL tied on place 1
kh_wacka-wacka - Hagar owns
On average on Key Hunt (which basically includes every large DM map): Hagar and RL tied on place 1

These stats are calculated in an Elo-like fashion - when A kills B and A holds weapon a and B holds weapon b, it counts as a win of a against b, and what it does is estimating scores sa, sb so if A holds a and B holds b, A will win against B with a probability of sa-sb + 50%.

So apparently there are quite some players who CAN use the Hagar - but I can't.

hagar ideas: smaller explotions (just the visuals). missile trails. its to hard to se where you are hitting in a burst with the large boomys and its sometimes hard to see where you are shooting when trying to use it over range/midair. tails would help with both.

once/if it becomes a gun avarage joe can use it will proly need to be castrated tho. its got some big harry ones when used right.

I think something that would make the crosshair more visible when the haggar is out may aid in it's usability.

Well you can try an other crosshair color or use CH 9/10 which have black + chooseable color.

divVerent wrote:

TVR wrote:The post meant, on which maps are the weapons balanced? Averaged across all the maps, or are the weapons only balanced on a box map?

As I said - on average.

I see.

divVerent wrote:

I was referring to the weapon switching clearing the accumulated refire time on the Nex, besides if the Nex were a sniper rifle equivalent, it would need more magnification by default; although the Nex shouldn't be overpowered at close ranges, it shouldn't be only useful at long ranges [think DM currently].

Yes, I think this should be fixed - just, how?

Think about a fast firing version, with less damage, ~120 with ~1 second refire; the weapon switching bug could could be removed in the same fashion of how it was implemented in the last few revisions.

divVerent wrote:

Indeed, but the Hagar is almost completely useless on most of the Nexuiz maps currently, only hal_palindrome defers; therefore it isn't actually balanced on average, now is it?

That's what we both experience when playing... however, the stats tell you otherwise:

ctf_Darkzonectf, kh_Darkzonectf - Hagar owns with HUGE distance
ctf_eggandbacon - Hagar on place 2 with only the MG in front of it
ctf_hourglass - Hagar and Mortar tied on place 1
ctf_tznex01 - Hagar owns
ctf_vitamea - Hagar owns with HUGE distance
kh_70mm13_03 - Hagar owns
kh_darkcity - Hagar owns
kh_nexdmlc1 - Hagar owns
kh_nexdmlc2 - Hagar and RL tied on place 1
kh_shdwdm1 - Hagar and RL tied on place 1
kh_silvercity - Hagar owns
kh_stormkeep - Hagar and RL tied on place 1
kh_wacka-wacka - Hagar owns
On average on Key Hunt (which basically includes every large DM map): Hagar and RL tied on place 1

These stats are calculated in an Elo-like fashion - when A kills B and A holds weapon a and B holds weapon b, it counts as a win of a against b, and what it does is estimating scores sa, sb so if A holds a and B holds b, A will win against B with a probability of sa-sb + 50%.

So apparently there are quite some players who CAN use the Hagar - but I can't.

OK, so the Hagar actually follows the auto-weapon switch tier, then maybe it could be made a bit easier to use in game modes deferring from Keyhunt?