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Which scoring system/gameplay of the three options can you LIVE WITH? That is, by voting you state you'd accept ANY of what you voted for.

None
1
2%
Frags And Points - Full Flag Carrier Speed (like 2.42) ONLY
9
20%
Just Points, No Frags - Full Flag Carrier Speed ONLY
5
11%
Captures Only - Reduced Flag Carrier Speed ONLY
6
14%
Just Points, No Frags - Full Flag Carrier Speed OR Captures Only - Reduced Flag Carrier Speed
7
16%
Frags And Points - Full Flag Carrier Speed (like 2.42) OR Captures Only - Reduced Flag Carrier Speed
4
9%
Frags And Points - Full Flag Carrier Speed (like 2.42) OR Just Points, No Frags - Full Flag Carrier Speed
7
16%
All of these (IOW: I don't care)
5
11%
 
Total votes : 44
Wed Nov 05, 2008 11:56 am

  • mand1nga wrote:I've voted for Frags And Points - Full Flag Carrier Speed (like 2.42) ONLY because I've been playing lately under this mode in Urban Terror CTF, different public servers, and perceived most players tend to play like a team and not just individuals, ie: enforcing defense, middle-field or attacking as needed, and issuing more team communication than I'm used to see in public Nexuiz servers.

    In this mode only flag captures is what matters, no returns/kills/etc, so here is no point on beign selfish, if you see your team losing you feel that you are losing too and this encourages to fill any void your team is having.


    are you completely stupid or you just hate this game and want to destroy it ?

    mand1nga wrote:I don't like any solution involving slowing down the flag carriers and/or wave respawns, because this is just against the Nexuiz vision: A fast paced game.


    another brilliant one ( urban terror have wave respawns )
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Wed Nov 05, 2008 12:34 pm

  • mand1nga wrote:Well ... too bad that I definitely have no time for reading the entire thread, I'll just post my thoughts about this:

    I've voted for Frags And Points - Full Flag Carrier Speed (like 2.42) ONLY because I've been playing lately under this mode in Urban Terror CTF, different public servers, and perceived most players tend to play like a team and not just individuals, ie: enforcing defense, middle-field or attacking as needed, and issuing more team communication than I'm used to see in public Nexuiz servers.


    You do know Urban Terror is much slower, and there is therefore much more TIME for elaborate team communication?

    I encourage to keep looking in the less obvious places, for example if the new team radar is enabled by default, it would be easy for any player to understand that there is no one on their base, this is a quick and visual suggestion for switching to defense at least for some minutes. Also having at hand CTF communication binds by default should be helpful.

    Cheers


    This is both already done.

    Now, counting the votes.

    We have 36 votes.
    "Frags And Points - Full Flag Carrier Speed (like 2.42)" got 7+3+7+2 = 19 votes in favor, and consequently 17 votes against.
    "Just Points, No Frags - Full Flag Carrier Speed" got 5+7+7+2-1 = 20 votes in favor, and consequently 16 votes against.
    "Captures Only - Reduced Flag Carrier Speed" got 4+7+3+2 = 16 votes in favor, and 20 votes against.

    Looks like it will be "Just Points, No Frags - Full Flag Carrier Speed".

    However, do we really want that? A new suggestion is there that MAY be working too... that would be "Captures Only - Full Flag Carrier Speed + Harsh Personal Scoring System", basically [-z-]'s suggestion.
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Thu Nov 06, 2008 3:05 am

  • divVerent wrote:However, do we really want that? A new suggestion is there that MAY be working too... that would be "Captures Only - Full Flag Carrier Speed + Harsh Personal Scoring System", basically [-z-]'s suggestion.


    It's only harsh if you're selfish. Working together as a team or at the very least, heightening your awareness of the field, will provide more personal points all around. The negative pickup serves as a deposit to imply the flag is a liability to the team. Those who keep picking it up and dying will lose points rapidly, they are hurting the team.
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Thu Nov 06, 2008 6:16 am

  • It'll probably work except harsh is done in the wrong way (you shouldn't lose points for taking the flag, but for losing the flag while carrying it/or if the flag was returned in the end).
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Thu Nov 06, 2008 6:38 am

  • I still am not convinced that five failed captures and two successful capture means you have harmed your team. In your scoring, you would get zero for that. That I consider just too harsh... however, I have no idea which ratio of capture success and capture failure should be considered "he did nothing for his team". In the previous system.

    So basically, your scoring system expects a success rate of at least 28.6% for a flag carrier, or he will lose points.

    Note that Nexuiz 2.4.2's system has the same harshness (but it requires just at least 19.2% success rate), except it is hidden by nontransparently giving the enemy points. That system is clearly wrong.

    Can we maybe adjust the minimum success rate to stay positive of your system to 20%, as it then matches the 2.4.2 gameplay of intelligent players, and - for scores-only games where it is NOT captures which decide the game - use a system similar to 2.4.2's with the big bug (returner gets points, flag loser does not see what he does is bad) fixed, or maybe ai's proposed system which is much simpler and currently only rewards/punishes the flag carrier and nobody else? Well, or change that system to, instead of giving the one who lost the flag -5 when it returned, just give him -4 and give the returner +1. Incidentally, that system is also tuned for 20% success rate...
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Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:36 am
Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:47 am

  • The main thing is that only caps would count, which is what you want.
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Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:49 am
Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:53 am

  • "Captures Only - Full Flag Carrier Speed + Harsh Personal Scoring System" - as I understand returns do not count here.
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Thu Nov 06, 2008 11:09 am

  • The "harsh" system is [-z-]'s, and he awards 5 points for killing the flag carrier, and 3 points for returning the flag.

    The flag carrier, in this case, loses 5 points for taking the flag, and another 5 for losing it.

    Sure, these scores are not taken into account for deciding who wins (or possibly just as tie breaker). But [-z-] will perhaps add a feature to kick players with -20, or ban them from playing and turning them into a spectator for 5 minutes. Now that I actually HAVE gotten negative score and not done anything wrong, I really am against such a thing. The situation was totally uneven teams, it was impossible to protect the own flag, as we were outclassed by the other team. When I did not attack, I get 0 points, and never am able to get the enemy, and the enemy gets 7 caps fast. When I did attack, I could take the flag away from the enemy, preventing him from capturing for some time - but there was nobody in my team able to get the enemy flag carrier faster than the enemy got me. Got me a negative score, of course. And [-z-] solves this problem of totally uneven teams is solved by removing a member from the losing team? Sure not. That's sure a thing he did not think about when coming up with the idea of kicking players with negative score.

    ai's system is almost fine with me - but the one who returns the flag should get points for it too. But a simple +1 would be more than enough for it (together with changing the penalty for losing a flag and it getting returned to -4, so the relative difference is 5 again).

    The FC killer does not need any extra reward, his frag appears in the "frags" scoreboard column anyway so he can be proud of it.
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Thu Nov 06, 2008 11:52 am

  • My system is simply just this. 1 cap = 1 point. And 1 return = 0.25 points (1/4). These points just act as a mere counter. When 4 returns have been made 1 point goes to the team who returned the flag 4 times.
    So if:

    Leader team = 5 caps
    Losing team = 4 caps

    Now if the losing team has 3 returns and manages to return 1 more time they get 1 point which will give them 5 "caps".

    It's rather simple, there can be an indicator showing how many returns have been made in the scoreboard if people don't like "invisible" points. I don't mind whichever.
    Now you are free to distribute individual points for returning the flag/taking the flag/scoring or whatever as you which, as long as those do not affect the overall team score.

    This system is almost the system that's currently in place, minus the frags and deaths of course.
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Thu Nov 06, 2008 12:22 pm

  • divVerent wrote:The FC killer does not need any extra reward, his frag appears in the "frags" scoreboard column anyway so he can be proud of it.

    No difference between regular frag and fckill is bad. Frags are all kills, while fckills = frags - kills of regular players. Regular kills should be accounted into personal score with lower coefficient than fckills..
    Last edited by Alien on Thu Nov 06, 2008 12:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Thu Nov 06, 2008 12:23 pm

  • ai wrote:My system is simply just this. 1 cap = 1 point. And 1 return = 0.25 points (1/4). These points just act as a mere counter. When 4 returns have been made 1 point goes to the team who returned the flag 4 times.
    So if:

    Leader team = 5 caps
    Losing team = 4 caps

    Now if the losing team has 3 returns and manages to return 1 more time they get 1 point which will give them 5 "caps".

    It's rather simple, there can be an indicator showing how many returns have been made in the scoreboard if people don't like "invisible" points. I don't mind whichever.
    Now you are free to distribute individual points for returning the flag/taking the flag/scoring or whatever as you which, as long as those do not affect the overall team score.

    This system is almost the system that's currently in place, minus the frags and deaths of course.


    This is not captures-only system then (please admit that).
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Thu Nov 06, 2008 12:23 pm

  • I actually think it would be nice to reward fragging of the flag carrier with more than one frag point, because such a kill is more valuable for the team than most other frags and it can be easily identified as such.

    Another thought that occurred to me (I don't know if this came up already) is that often on space maps killing the flag carrier automatically leads to the flag being returned, e.g. if it drops into space. Shouldn't this be considered a "return" of the flag then? Of course only on the "reset" event (since on hook servers you might be able to recover it). I am not sure about generally counting "resets" as returns, though. Suicides of the flag carrier shouldn't count as returns at all of course.

    Just a thought, because often for example in mentalspace I end up defending because nobody else does and pushing flag carriers into space like an automatic pusher machine (well, not quite, but you get the picture). At the end of the match I feel I have done quite a lot for the team but that doesn't show up really.

    Personally I don't care much for points, anyway, so I will be fine with any scoring system whatever, but since we are discussing this here I just thought why not add my two cents :o)
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Thu Nov 06, 2008 1:20 pm

  • Alien wrote:This is not captures-only system then (please admit that).

    Never said it was.
    I am for a capture-only system yes. But seemingly as that won't happen I thought I could as well propose something in between. We "cap only" people compromise with this, and you "point system" guys compromise as well.
    Instead of going with only one side, let's make the best of the both.
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Thu Nov 06, 2008 1:31 pm

  • ai wrote:
    Alien wrote:This is not captures-only system then (please admit that).

    Never said it was.
    I am for a capture-only system yes. But seemingly as that won't happen I thought I could as well propose something in between. We "cap only" people compromise with this, and you "point system" guys compromise as well.
    Instead of going with only one side, let's make the best of the both.

    Alien wrote:Personally I could even go for ONLY CAPS count NO BOOST reduce for 3.0 as default mode if map makers will make ctf maps which fit nexuiz (3.0 because good maps need time to be made).
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Thu Nov 06, 2008 2:12 pm

  • Never saw that quote from you. But still 3.0 is WAYS ahead in the future. Now I have no idea where the development is today but I still would count on at least a year, possibly 2 or even 3. It depends how many coders show up and stuff like that.. or?

    But still, what has any of your quotes to do with the current problem? We still need a solution NOW.
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Thu Nov 06, 2008 2:26 pm

  • My hope is that the current solution, whateve it will be, will be a temporary one until we get better maps.
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Thu Nov 06, 2008 2:50 pm

  • divVerent wrote: But [-z-] will perhaps add a feature to kick players with -20, or ban them from playing and turning them into a spectator for 5 minutes.

    This means you'd have to grab the flag 4 times and fail to score... and not kill a single player... I don't see how that's helping the team :-P. Also, in my pseudo code, I had implied the limit to spectate would be a cvar definable by server admins, -20 was just the "default value".


    By switching to defense, the player not only earns points for flag carrier kills and returns but the enemy loses points for picking it up.
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Thu Nov 06, 2008 3:17 pm

  • People thought that reducing flag carrier speed was a very stupid thing to do to "enforce" teamplay. How do you think people will react to being kicked from game and brought to a spectator mode for trying to capture the flag but wasn't successful?
    Sometimes, people don't care about killing the enemies. They just stack up on armour, health and jump into the enemy base trying to take the flag and get the hell out of there. That's how MOST good cappers play out there, they don't care much about killing any pursuers or anything (which is wrong yes I know, but they are still stubborn).

    Maybe after this they'll gladly accept the speed reduction :twisted:
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Thu Nov 06, 2008 3:27 pm

  • [-z-] wrote:
    divVerent wrote: But [-z-] will perhaps add a feature to kick players with -20, or ban them from playing and turning them into a spectator for 5 minutes.

    This means you'd have to grab the flag 4 times and fail to score... and not kill a single player... I don't see how that's helping the team :-P


    Then how to help the team if the other team is so much stronger that nothing works?
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Thu Nov 06, 2008 3:32 pm

  • ai wrote:People thought that reducing flag carrier speed was a very stupid thing to do to "enforce" teamplay. How do you think people will react to being kicked from game and brought to a spectator mode for trying to capture the flag but wasn't successful?

    I feel like discouraging selfishness in team game is the right thing to do if we're looking to promote teamwork. You're either part of the problem or part of the solution.

    ai wrote:Sometimes, people don't care about killing the enemies. They just stack up on armour, health and jump into the enemy base trying to take the flag and get the hell out of there.

    And failing to cap after picking up the flag and taking all the health and armor without killing any enemies approaching your base leaves your team at a disadvantage. Some people may see making it to the flag as a successful thing but not being able to get far with it causes a lot of trouble for your team. Furthermore, if those enemies this selfish player didn't kill have defeated your weakened defense, you've now just handed an advantage over to the enemy.

    If for example, I'm at the enemy base, stacking on THEIR health and armor, taking THEIR weapons, putting THEM at a disadvantage, planning my attack and a stacker as you described flies in a fails... I have to abandon my routine to assist them only to watch them die, my advantage declines and our team suffers the consequences due to a selfish act by the other player.

    Nexuiz may seem to fast to some to consider coordinated attacks but they are what lead to the highest probability of success.

    ai wrote:That's how MOST good cappers play out there, they don't care much about killing any pursuers or anything (which is wrong yes I know, but they are still stubborn).

    And largely, the only reason this works for them is because their teammates pick up the slack. I don't believe MOST good cappers JUST grab the flag and run. They disable their enemy, put them at a disadvantage and flee the base with the flag when they are in a stronger position. Working together increases the success rate.

    ai wrote:Maybe after this they'll gladly accept the speed reduction :twisted:

    I honestly think the speed reduction will make this problem worse.


    Negative flag pickups also discourage flag sitting... who wants to sit on a flag for -5 points? :-P
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Thu Nov 06, 2008 3:32 pm

  • divVerent wrote:
    [-z-] wrote:
    divVerent wrote: But [-z-] will perhaps add a feature to kick players with -20, or ban them from playing and turning them into a spectator for 5 minutes.

    This means you'd have to grab the flag 4 times and fail to score... and not kill a single player... I don't see how that's helping the team :-P


    Then how to help the team if the other team is so much stronger that nothing works?

    Refer to my other thread about team balancing.
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Thu Nov 06, 2008 4:00 pm

  • That solution is not implemented, as I still do not understand how it helps. It still can make the problem worse. But that does not belong here.

    However, with three mediocre players and one really skilled player, no team balance algorithm that ensures a 2vs2 game can ever fix it, but an algorithm that does not ensure equally sized teams can lead to REALLY bad disparity between teams. Even in 1vs3, the balance may be way off, and the three may have no chance at all.

    And forcing one of the three to spectate really isn't going to help.
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Thu Nov 06, 2008 4:04 pm

  • We aren't looking for a perfect solution. We're looking for something that will improve _most_ situations... something better better than what we have. Hope is still alive!


    Yes we can!
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Thu Nov 06, 2008 4:20 pm

  • [-z-] wrote:
    ai wrote:People thought that reducing flag carrier speed was a very stupid thing to do to "enforce" teamplay. How do you think people will react to being kicked from game and brought to a spectator mode for trying to capture the flag but wasn't successful?

    I feel like discouraging selfishness in team game is the right thing to do if we're looking to promote teamwork. You're either part of the problem or part of the solution.

    You still haven't answered my question. But I can answer this for you. People will STOP playing CTF if they are FORCED to spectate. Also this "solution" is like a death-sentence to newbies and people not so skilled.
    No game in the world has the right to force someone to spectate just because they are doing bad in the game (purposely or not, that's the admin's job to tangle with).
    Honestly, your solution is no solution at all.

    [-z-] wrote:
    ai wrote:Maybe after this they'll gladly accept the speed reduction :twisted:

    I honestly think the speed reduction will make this problem worse.

    I don't really get how your mind works. You think speed reduction would make teamplay worse, yet forcing players to spectate, yeah that will help teamplay, take away one guy from the team :P

    [-z-] wrote:Negative flag pickups also discourage flag sitting... who wants to sit on a flag for -5 points? :-P

    Negative flag pickups discourage players to PICK UP the flag. At least I wouldn't want to pick it up if I got negative score. There's really no point in this.

    Anyway Z, I don't think your system will be in place anyway, Alien, me and even Div disagrees with this, and I bet many other would too if they just read this :P
    Getting negative score for picking up the flag is taking punishment for the predecessor. Pretty much like: "Hey, your dad owes us money, but he is dead so you, his son, will have to pay us.".
    That's just wrong.
    Last edited by ai on Thu Nov 06, 2008 4:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Thu Nov 06, 2008 4:21 pm

  • What do you want to improve (teamplay or balance)? Cause these are two different cases.
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Thu Nov 06, 2008 5:02 pm

  • Well, I have a more constructive idea than forcing players to spectate (which is equivalent to a kick, as they will simply leave and connect to another server):

    What about, instead, showing to the "bad performers" a shield around the enemy flag point, and making them unable to pick up the enemy flag from the enemy's base, combined with a message "You have been forced to defend for multiple unsuccessfull capture attempts - defend your base until further notice" that is displayed all the time? They'll learn fast. Of course they should still be able to pick up DROPPED flags.

    Of course, one would have to make sure that not many of a team are blocked by this. So maybe the threshold would be -10 points, but if more than half of your team has -10 points, only the worst half would get this "flag blockage". Also, the blockage would not suddenly appear when someone else joins (with 0 points) or a bad performer disconnects, but only when you actually lose points.

    But the last thing you can do is forcing players to spectate for "just playing bad". Not everyone can aim well, not everyone can jump well, but they need to train to be good - and you're taking away their ability to train.
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Thu Nov 06, 2008 5:13 pm

  • ai wrote:You still haven't answered my question. But I can answer this for you. People will STOP playing CTF if they are FORCED to spectate. Also this "solution" is like a death-sentence to newbies and people not so skilled.
    No game in the world has the right to force someone to spectate just because they are doing bad in the game (purposely or not, that's the admin's job to tangle with).
    Honestly, your solution is no solution at all.

    Please don't state things as fact if you haven't proven them as such. We know that such systems already work, it's called conditioning through negative reinforcement. We already know the positive reinforcement isn't enough so I've attempted to widen the scope. It's as simple as, "follow the rules or you'll be punished". Those who can't learn how to play, shouldn't be allowed to ruin the game for those who have.

    Again you're blowing the simple idea out of proportion. It takes EFFORT to fail this hard. Assuming the player has gotten 1 kill and no suicides... they'd have to drop the flag 5 times without scoring or killing...

    Just think about that before you tell me, "it's no solution at all".

    ai wrote:
    [-z-] wrote:
    ai wrote:Maybe after this they'll gladly accept the speed reduction :twisted:

    I honestly think the speed reduction will make this problem worse.

    I don't really get how your mind works. You think speed reduction would make teamplay worse, yet forcing players to spectate, yeah that will help teamplay, take away one guy from the team :P

    Forcing SELFISH PLAYERS to spectate will increase teamplay by alleviating the problem and allowing players who work together to work together without worrying about a kamikaze screwing up their plan.

    ai wrote:Anyway Z, I don't think your system will be in place anyway, Alien, me and even Div disagrees with this, and I bet many other would too if they just read this :P
    Getting negative score for picking up the flag is taking punishment for the predecessor. Pretty much like: "Hey, your dad owes us money, but he is dead so you, his son, will have to pay us.".
    That's just wrong.

    What? Did you somehow miss all the times div has said my system appears to be working?
    Last edited by [-z-] on Thu Nov 06, 2008 5:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Thu Nov 06, 2008 5:13 pm

  • Jesus Christ, have you all gone mad? Stopping players from picking up the flag? Kicking them if they pick it up too much? This is absurd. We need to be PROMOTING defense of the flag carrier, not punishing him if his team is too stupid to defend him. IMO, I think this problem would be solved by eliminating points (added OR subtracted) for flag returns. That would also discourage people from doing stuff like lasering teammates away from a flag so they can return it, which is bad for the team.
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