k0jak wrote:have to agree one cap = 1 capture point, then just do personal scores for certain things like flag returns, flag capture (personal points also) flag kills, frags, assists?

ive read this negative scoring, and its got a lot of negative feedback for good or worse im not sure, but everything seems to be getting over-complicated...


and i like the idea of flag carrier speed-reduction if it helps to fix maps.

thats exactly how it should be and should always have been from the start

Fallacy, Appeal to Novelty.

Punishment of unsuccessful flag runs does not differentiate upon ability, merely success rate, thus comparatively less skilled attackers are affected only.

Less skilled attackers would be relegated to defence & other frustrating tasks not willingly performed by anyone, concentrating the most enjoyable activity of flag running, to savvy flag runners such as yourself.

TVR wrote:Punishment of unsuccessful flag runs does not differentiate upon ability, merely success rate, thus comparatively less skilled attackers are affected only.

It differentiates between a mental ability. If you repeatedly grab the flag and die and can't figure out the error of your ways, the system will assist in the learning process. There are many things seasoned players have seemingly forgotten about the learning process. Some ideas that are painfully obvious to us now were not always so. I wish there was something like this system in place when I learning. Early on, I was upsetting such seasoned players due to a lack of intimate knowledge of how the game works.

At face value, yes, you capture the flag to win. However, there are many more dimensions to be taken into consideration and I believe a more positive environment would be created if we figured out a way to express these things.

The negative points is merely a personal score, a way to rate yourself. It has no "real" affect on the game. In 2.4.2 it's obvious players old and new use the scoring to determine their abilities. The problem is 20 points for a flag capture has players focusing on flag captures for the sake of themselves, not the team. A relatively poor player was able to achieve a relatively high score out of stubbornness by flag sitting and flag hogging, which wastes time and resources. The fault here, is that a player who essentially ruined the game for the rest of their team would cop an attitude, "so what, I have the most points, I must be doing something right".

I don't consider this attitude to provide a health environment for gameplay. After close observation and many disappointments, I began to develop the theory behind the scoring system I use today on the Nexuiz Ninjaz SVN servers. My intent was to spread out the field play, emphasize the defense and better reflect personal abilities based on score.

I believe this system is successful in these points.

TVR wrote:Less skilled attackers would be relegated to defence & other frustrating tasks not willingly performed by anyone, concentrating the most enjoyable activity of flag running, to savvy flag runners such as yourself.

Attackers who can't figure out a good time to grab the flag will be punished. I often play defense when needed, I just happen to be a stronger offensive/midfield player. Much like in real life sports, people are stronger at different field positions. With or without the scoring system, weaker attackers would continue to fail. The scoring system provides positive incentives for playing defense, taking the focus off the need to capture the flag. There is pride in other field positions and this system attempts to award whatever position the player is best at.

I understand that flag captures determine the outcome of the game. However, people seem to be neglecting the fact that defense is designed to discourage the enemy from gaining this advantage (flag scores towards a win). This should be rewarded as it helps the team.

In football, people have strict positions, in a game you play on your spare time should not tell them what to play as. They should be able to play any way they want, this is not a strict game and should not be so. Yes, you say, it may ruin the gameplay, but I rather take ruined gameplay over strict positions the game gives people. Unless it's a mode where there are defenders, midfield and attackers. Then after halftime people switch roles or sides.

However, majority (at this point it seems as) thinks this is a bad idea. You can go on preaching how "good" this system is, the majority will still think it's bad and thus should not be implemented. Otherwise this is a 'dictatorship' where you are the dictator telling everyone what to do. I don't like such systems. Consider yourself defeated in this matter (no matter how well you think this system works). A defeat is a defeat.

Wait, did you just make an analogy to a game that stops every 10 seconds or are you talking about the "European football" that Americans call soccer?

I never said anything about strict positions, in fact, I advocated switching between them. It's actually wonderful (but unfortunately rare) to have a partner or group of players that can switch between offense and defense because it lets returning flag carriers pack health, armor and ammo while their defender buddy who just did this grab the next flag. This keeps the team at an advantage.

MAJORITY? What. The. Hell. Just because a few people have voiced their opinion against it, doesn't make it a majority within the community. Maybe a majority relative to the last 3 pages of this thread but that's a SAMPLE. That's not a fair statistic, it's clearly bias to your opinion.

I'm not telling anyone to do anything. I'm defending my reasoning behind the system. If you think I'm a dictator, you clearly haven't taken the time to understand me or my beliefs.

It's obvious you don't like such systems but I think this is due to the fact you haven't taken the time to fully understand them, hence the reason I've spent the last 3 pages explaining and defending my idea against people like yourself.

Not seeing the picture in it's entirety, then accusing me of being a dictator doesn't make you correct or "defeat me". It does however prove to me you aren't open to the idea of change... even when I've clearly identified the issues and how my system addresses them.

The fact remains, you haven't played the system and you're arguing based on your assumptions, which from a few pages back (when you were arguing against my scoring based on assumptions, not facts) I know are underdeveloped. You even go as far to ignore evidence that the system works.

Dr. Seuss wrote:I do not like eggs in the file.
I do not like them in any style.
I will not take them fried or boiled.
I will not take them poached or broiled.

I will not take them soft or scrambled,
Despite an argument well-rambled.
No fan I am of the egg at hand.

Destroy that egg! Today! Today!
Today I say!
Without delay!

[-z-] wrote:Wait, did you just make an analogy to a game that stops every 10 seconds or are you talking about the "European football" that Americans call soccer?/quote]
Yeah, I took football (soccer if you want, I'm not an American so I don't say soccer) as an analogy as you took "real life sports" as an example. So I just continued on from where you left off. This was you who said it, I just elaborated it a bit.

But you still would have strict positions as you FORCE players to play as a defender or whatever. That is what I meant (and you too).

[-z-] wrote:MAJORITY? What. The. Hell. Just because a few people have voiced their opinion against it, doesn't make it a majority within the community. Maybe a majority relative to the last 3 pages of this thread but that's a SAMPLE. That's not a fair statistic, it's clearly bias to your opinion.

I didn't say anything about the majority of the community, I never said anything about the community. You yet again jump to conclusions and read between the lines, which I told you you SHOULDN'T do with my posts. My posts says exactly what the letters says. No hidden meanings or governmental conspiracy. I'm not a complicated guy, I hate complication. I just said the majority of those who have voiced their opinion.

[-z-] wrote:It's obvious you don't like such systems but I think this is due to the fact you haven't taken the time to fully understand them, hence the reason I've spent the last 3 pages explaining and defending my idea against people like yourself.

Not seeing the picture in it's entirety, then accusing me of being a dictator doesn't make you correct or "defeat me". It does however prove to me you aren't open to the idea of change... even when I've clearly identified the issues and how my system addresses them.

So what you basically are saying is this: Because you don't agree with my system you obviously don't understand it. So take time to understand the system and you WILL see it the same way I do.

No, that's wrong. I'll say it ONE more time and this time it's the LAST time I say it. I DO understand the WHOLE system FULLY. I STILL think it's not the way to go.
If you insist that I still don't understand it because I don't agree then you need to get out from your little corner and see the world.

No more on that point, case closed.

[-z-] wrote:The fact remains, you haven't played the system and you're arguing based on your assumptions, which from a few pages back (when you were arguing against my scoring based on assumptions, not facts) I know are underdeveloped. You even go as far to ignore evidence that the system works.

No one had played your system when it first was new, and it still cannot be played, even by you. Unless you actually have created this mode and played it for yourself, which then it still wouldn't have been valid. So you TOO are arguing based on assumptions (admit it. And please don't come with your "research speech again).

You have no right to say what you just did as you yourself haven't tested this system so you're no more right than I am. If it currently has been incorporated into the SVN client (and a server) say so, then I can try it. Keep in mind that it still will need more than just an hour or so testing. Probably minimum a week or so.

Majority is a relative term. You cannot simply say "majority" without a reference point, I was trying to clarify for myself and others.

The only system that would "force" a player to do anything would be the bubble, which again, takes effort to fail that hard. The scoring is purely psychological.

The case has been closed to you since I opened the topic, who are you kidding?

No one had played your system when it first was new, and it still cannot be played, even by you. Unless you actually have created this mode and played it for yourself, which then it still wouldn't have been valid. So you TOO are arguing based on assumptions (admit it. And please don't come with your "research speech again).

I run 3 servers with this scoring system... divVerent has run 1. FURTHERING MY POINT YOU DON'T LISTEN AND MAKE ARGUMENTS BASED ON YOUR ASSUMPTIONS. The only thing I haven't tried is the bubble and that's because divVerent has just/is still developing it. HOWEVER, looking at the flag capture ratio, it's easy to hypothesis who would be affected, this is a minor detail.

I've linked to THIS THREAD which explains in detail the scoring system and explicitly states I have servers running with this scoring system. You told me you read this... now you're telling me I've never tested the system.

Seriously, wtf?

And you say I jump to conclusions.

[-z-] wrote:The only system that would "force" a player to do anything would be the bubble, which again, takes effort to fail that hard. The scoring is purely psychological.

I told you on IRC that it doesn't matter even if it's IMPOSSIBLE to fail that hard. That has nothing to do with the whole thing, it STILL forces players to play as one role. Again, you cannot use the "it takes skill to fail that hard" argument. That's not valid.

[-z-] wrote:The case has been closed to you since I opened the topic, who are you kidding?

I was referring to you not understanding that I DO understand your system and thus you blame me saying that's the reason I don't like it. Not to this topic, read more carefully my posts. That's what I referred to as case closed.

Oh and on a final note, I do not have an nexuiz ninja account and will never create one. I am not lurking on those forums. You should also not expect everyone to be there either.
I'd rather be on the official forums than some community dividing the already small community. I've never actually liked that that happened in the first place anyway.

[-z-] wrote:

TVR wrote:Punishment of unsuccessful flag runs does not differentiate upon ability, merely success rate, thus comparatively less skilled attackers are affected only.

... If you repeatedly grab the flag and die ...

Obviously, one must be comparatively less skilled in flag running, but consider someone more skilled in flag running in the same situation described as futile, that person would more likely succeed, even with the same pickups.

[-z-] wrote:... The problem is 20 points for a flag capture has players focusing on flag captures for the sake of themselves, not the team. ...

Current Nexuiz CTF game settings rely on a point system, the most efficient method to amass points in flag captures, but unsuccessful attempts yields points for the opposing team to discourage knowingly unsuccessful attempts.

However, since the NN system relies on captures only scoring, any attempt would have no true drawback, successful flag runners will be more successful, since captures are still as significant, but returns do not determine a victory

Essentially, the personal points are only to fool those who do not realize points are commonly correlated to victory, but no longer the cause of victory.

[-z-] wrote:

TVR wrote:Less skilled attackers would be relegated to defence & other frustrating tasks not willingly performed by anyone, concentrating the most enjoyable activity of flag running, to savvy flag runners such as yourself.

... Attackers who can't figure out a good time to grab the flag will be punished. ...

Merely attackers with a comparatively lower success rate in relation to other potential attackers.

[-z-] wrote:... weaker attackers would continue to fail. ...

There does not exist any inherent exception with such and a success, it is a game, which intention is to entertain, regardless of skill.

[-z-] wrote:The scoring system provides positive incentives for playing defense, taking the focus off the need to capture the flag.

Positive if, and only if points were cause of enjoyment, the true reward lies with the excitement of escape from the enemy base, with the bonus of directly influencing victory.

ai wrote:

[-z-] wrote:The only system that would "force" a player to do anything would be the bubble, which again, takes effort to fail that hard. The scoring is purely psychological.

I told you on IRC that it doesn't matter even if it's IMPOSSIBLE to fail that hard. That has nothing to do with the whole thing, it STILL forces players to play as one role. Again, you cannot use the "it takes skill to fail that hard" argument. That's not valid.

It forces them to any role but one. There's a reason people are giving licenses to drive cars and reasons they get them suspended. This works on the same principle, to protect the the larger group. I too am for individual rights and power but I think those who abuse, should lose it.

ai wrote:

[-z-] wrote:The case has been closed to you since I opened the topic, who are you kidding?

I was referring to you not understanding that I DO understand your system and thus you blame me saying that's the reason I don't like it. Not to this topic, read more carefully my posts. That's what I referred to as case closed.

I read your loosely worded posts very carefully. I try to explain to you how your vagueness can cause confusion... usually to your benefit. You may or may not be aware of the fact that your wording is manipulative. Stating, "the majority" without a reference point is a prime example.

ai wrote:Oh and on a final note, I do not have an nexuiz ninja account and will never create one. I am not lurking on those forums. You should also not expect everyone to be there either.
I'd rather be on the official forums than some community dividing the already small community. I've never actually liked that that happened in the first place anyway.

Well that's great, this post is about CTF and now you're turning it into personal attacks on a community that's aided in the recent popularity and advances within the game. Since your opinion is out in the open now, I think it's only fair I argue this point to defend the ninjaz. However, if you'd like to continue this unrelated argument, I'd prefer we do so somewhere else.

How arrogant are you to post in a public forum in a thread about CTF an attack on a community you're essentially saying you're too good for?

I suppose it's easy for people to forget how hard it was to find information on Nexuiz before the Ninjaz were around but there was once a time when a google search yielded nothing but garbage. My background is in web development and SEO. My degree is in Computer Networks and Information Systems, a major where I learn a lot about Management of Information Systems. I created the Nexuiz Ninjaz to contribute back to the game in the way that I could. Practicing these arts, I recreated the homepage, contributed graphics, maps, code, web applications, theories and knowledge, working closely with other developers and ninjaz to improve the game. I've provided, with the help of many ninjaz, back links and references to build a story around this community giving it credibility and exposure. The Ninjaz is a way to get these ideas organized from people who seek more from this open-source game. What you see in the forums is only a small percentage of what we actually do.

If you think we're a group of elitists who are dividing this community, you once again haven't taken the time to understand. There are a small group of members who may offend you but they do not have in their hearts and minds the knowledge and drive we've built the community on.

I don't expect everyone to lurk the forums, but I did expect you to read a thread I linked to and you claimed you read. You sir, are full of shit and I'm losing patience.

ai wrote:Oh and on a final note, I do not have an nexuiz ninja account and will never create one. I am not lurking on those forums. You should also not expect everyone to be there either.

I'd rather be on the official forums than some community dividing the already small community. I've never actually liked that that happened in the first place anyway.

Attitudes like this are the reason that I appreciate the Nexuiz Ninjaz sub-community. I see it as a safe haven for those in the Nexuiz community who are a lot less closed minded, and have less attitude when new ideas are brought up.

Right. As you NNs prove, NNs don't want the game to be fun for new players, or players who lack the skill. They want it to be fun for themselves only, and "pwn the nubz".

Sure, it won't be YOU who'll see that bubble...

But what you are forgetting is that this is a game, and meant to be somewhat enjoyable. Using sheer force to make players always work for the good of their team might be a good idea from the teamplay perspective, even kicking players who aren't that good may be. But it is a bad move from the perspective of the player who's affected, who's likely a new player or someone who lacks abilities. Still, he wants to enjoy the game too, and taking away the remaining means using which he, at his low skill, can enjoy the game will simply make him leave the game.

See the outrage even the flag carrier slowing down caused. See the outrage caused by something as unimportant as negative personal scores for flag pickup. Some people simply want to enjoy the game in a way that maybe isn't the best for the team. Others can't do any better, and want to learn the game through actual playing. Nothing is wrong with that. And no, neither can theory entirely replace aiming and moving skill, nor is every gamer mentally able to understand the game in all depths. Are you discriminating against such people? Hint: one of your favorite mappers in NN actually has no good analytic thinking abilities. You play his maps anyway. But do you really want to change the game in a way so he can't enjoy it any more?

You can't turn public servers into competitive ones that way. I learned that lesson too, after the flag carrier slowdown thing. It might work TECHNICALLY, but it is simply nothing you can do to your fellow players, who'll then simply play elsewhere.

Maybe NNs should add "To all newbies: no fun allowed, this is not a game, this is military drill, do what the master says" to their server MOTDs...

Of course, on your own server, you can do whatever you want, but don't impose it on the majority of players, who simply want to have fun, want to relax from their work day, their school, whatever.

We don't want to "pwn nubs" if you think that's our mentality,

YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND OUR COMMUNITY.

I guess providing the largest collection of Nexuiz related resources isn't enough to convince you because we purely did that for our selfish awesome selfs as you see it. This pessimistic attitude has and always will be the demise of this community.

The golden rule of the Ninjaz is respect. Something this community could give a shit less about. You continue to spread hate and negativity within the community but point your finger at us as the cause? Please! We've put Nexuiz on the map. Do you think this is an accident?

I think it's pretty stupid to shit on the people that help you because you're assuming they are negatively affecting the community at large because a few people shoot their mouths off. The squeaky wheel gets the grease though, right?



A good leader would try and understand the bigger picture.



We're open to new ideas, not just this communism bullshit you thinks a better solution because it's "tried and true". We share our ideas, challenging each other but most of all try to have fun. Personally, I try to PLAY, not PWN as I've said many times. I can't speak for every ninja because I'm only myself but I can tell you that I, the leader of this community try to teach and spread knowledge. I try and provide resources and encourage others to do the same.

If you're supporting the freedom of an individual to repeated pickup and drop the flag at the cost of the team, I'd assume it's because you're that selfish idiot who does it.

For those that don't lurk the NN forums, here's an article I wrote about the aforementioned mapper who at times, has trouble keeping his ideology under wraps, [Game Theory] How I Understand Desert Castles. The last explosion was due to close-minded assholes, who are participating in this VERY THREAD that provoked him. He's a smart guy but you can't seem to look past his faults and because I can, you assume I'm a supporter of hate and oppression.

I'm not scared to think outside the box and challenge myself even when it goes against convention. I'm sorry some of you feel more comfortable that way.

divVerent wrote:Right. As you NNs prove, NNs don't want the game to be fun for new players, or players who lack the skill. They want it to be fun for themselves only, and "pwn the nubz".

. . .

Maybe NNs should add "To all newbies: no fun allowed, this is not a game, this is military drill, do what the master says" to their server MOTDs...

Div, that is probably the most misinformed comment I've ever heard you make. Where the hell do you get these ideas?

I've personally spent about a gazillion hours helping to train new players to help improve their skills. I know other people have done the same. I ran a "Nexuiz school" server for a while (using a mod that Mr Bougo made) to help teach newer players. I operate my private servers (the batcave servers) just for the sole purpose of helping to build up the community, which involves bringing in newer players with good attitudes and allowing them to raise their skill level by playing on those servers.

Now, I didn't do all of this under the banner of "Nexuiz Ninjaz", but I think it falls under the same mindset as Nexuiz Ninjaz, and it involves a lot of the same people.

I've always criticized the Nexuiz community on Alientrap for being WAY too closed minded, and, quite frankly, bitchy when it comes to discussing new ideas. For this reason, Nexuiz Ninjaz is a breath of fresh air. As far as ideas, -z- has his, I have mine, other people have more ideas. Personally, I think all ideas should be placed on the table. The more the merrier. That is a common mindset on the NN forums, but that is not a common mindset on the Alientrap forums.

I know -z- has gotten in heated arguments with a number of people over the last year, and I think a lot of these arguments result from the fact that -z- has a ton of passion about anything that he is involved in. Early on, I had a negative impression of him at one point, but my opinion of him has changed because HE has changed dramatically over the past year. He's not the same person he was a year ago, or even 6 months ago, and he's always seeking to improve himself. So I respect him for that. I think this is because he has the mindset of constantly questioning things and wanting to evolve. That is what I see as the heart of Nexuiz Ninjaz concept right there, the want to improve and evolve. That is why I like it better than the Alientrap community, which has a tendency to stifle ideas, and ultimately, the evolution of Nexuiz and its community.

Put it this way, if the Alientrap community weren't so closed minded, I would personally recruit a group of people from within the community to make a push in trying to find more developers to get involved in Nexuiz development (to help Divverent). But since the Alientrap community is closed minded, I kind of don't give a shit. I'll just wait until Div ultimately quits and then the Alientrap community will HAVE to consider new ideas to find more developers.

Ok, I believe this will be a rather long post. I'm not attacking anyone here and one way you know that is buy reading slowly (literally) and calmly. Here goes:

[-z-] wrote:It forces them to any role but one.

There aren't that many roles on CTF. 3 Mainly, even 4 if you count running around and goofing off, not helping the team nor trying to make them fail. Just run around checking out the textures, map structure etc.

[-z-] wrote:I read your loosely worded posts very carefully. I try to explain to you how your vagueness can cause confusion... usually to your benefit. You may or may not be aware of the fact that your wording is manipulative. Stating, "the majority" without a reference point is a prime example.

My posts aren't loosely formed, if you think so then that's just you. My posts say exactly what it says. I don't really see thought how you could have misunderstood this:

So what you basically are saying is this: Because you don't agree with my system you obviously don't understand it. So take time to understand the system and you WILL see it the same way I do.

No, that's wrong. I'll say it ONE more time and this time it's the LAST time I say it. I DO understand the WHOLE system FULLY. I STILL think it's not the way to go.
If you insist that I still don't understand it because I don't agree then you need to get out from your little corner and see the world.

No more on that point, case closed.

How should I have phrased it better for you to understand? (I'm asking sincerely)

[-z-] wrote:Well that's great, this post is about CTF and now you're turning it into personal attacks on a community that's aided in the recent popularity and advances within the game. Since your opinion is out in the open now, I think it's only fair I argue this point to defend the ninjaz. However, if you'd like to continue this unrelated argument, I'd prefer we do so somewhere else.

[...]

How arrogant are you to post in a public forum in a thread about CTF an attack on a community you're essentially saying you're too good for?

This wasn't a personal attack or anything. My opinion is already out there. Here's the thing: When Nexuiz Ninjas was formed you guys created a community. Now I'm all for that, however, what I disliked a bit was that you would split (at that time) a very small community in two. I was thinking why not just concentrate on this one and make the best of that. Creating a site is all well and good, but another forum was beyond me why anyone would want to do that. So out of respect to this official one I didn't go there.

On that note too, (and what I tried to say is that) you can't expect people to sing up on all these different forums, checking them for new stuff all the time. People don't generally live on forums all the time and some doesn't like to have to go to different places to see what's up. This is especially true to forums that has the same goal (and topic) in mind. Going to two different communities which evolves around the same thing (Nexuiz).
Creating another community in that way disrespects people who have more going on in their lives than just surfing. That's what I didn't like, that's also the reason why I didn't want to sign up (and haven't done so, and probably won't). I don't have time, or want, to browse different forums, which has basically is on the same topic.
I know people who shared this opinion, and having this opinion is nothing wrong either.

No keep in mind, back in those days the community was already very small and you divided it in a way. This was not a personal attack to you or your work.

[-z-] wrote:I don't expect everyone to lurk the forums, but I did expect you to read a thread I linked to and you claimed you read. You sir, are full of shit and I'm losing patience.

I read the thread you posted on these forums, not the Nexuiz Ninjas. If I was misinformed by that thread it just means it didn't include as much information as the NN one, which makes you at fault here.

Dokujisan wrote:Attitudes like this are the reason that I appreciate the Nexuiz Ninjaz sub-community. I see it as a safe haven for those in the Nexuiz community who are a lot less closed minded, and have less attitude when new ideas are brought up.

You obviously misunderstood my post too, didn't take time to read or got influenced by Z's outrage.
If it was the post please say so. I was actually in a hurry when I wrote that but I'll try to see that won't happen again.

----------------------------

Some words:
Yes, ideas are good. But you guys also need to understand that too many ideas can, or is, a bad thing. People coming with suggestions to "improve" the game all the time without caring for what it actually is or stands for will eventually destroy what makes Nexuiz Nexuiz.
Someone on these forums said that ideas should be well thought of and not half-asses that just randomly spurs out of ones' mouth. Giving suggestions and ideas also need to take into consideration the very foundation that this game was built on. Without understanding that you will totally change it. This is what you call 'close minded'. Not to mention, who would do these implementations? You? No it would fall on the development team. If you decided or was willing to give a hand then that's great, but most of the people coming with these suggestions doesn't even think about that.

This community is the most tolerant I've seen and yet you shoot it down when it doesn't agree with your views. It's like a random guy would come to a <insertRandomGameNameHere> and suggested they should do <insertRandomCrazyThingHere>. Of course only genuine proposals are taken into consideration. So 'the more the merrier' is not such a good thing.
You say we don't understand your community, it seems as if you also don't understand this one.

Please stop with these insults and attacks. I see that much temper is being thrown around, which most comes from the NN.
This community has always been friendly and controlled in the responses, which some of you seem to lack a bit of.

And some final words:

[-z-] wrote:For those that don't lurk the NN forums, here's an article I wrote about the aforementioned mapper who at times, has trouble keeping his ideology under wraps, [Game Theory] How I Understand Desert Castles. The last explosion was due to close-minded assholes, who are participating in this VERY THREAD that provoked him. He's a smart guy but you can't seem to look past his faults and because I can, you assume I'm a supporter of hate and oppression.

No, you're wrong.
I know you're one to defend the "bad" people like a lawyer defends them for money. But you seem to also miss one important thing here.
The one you're talking about has caused much hate and intolerance around here. Just because you can see past these qualities doesn't mean everyone else does. In fact, the majority of people are not tolerant of others with these strong opinions and values. However, that's not even the point. It would be all and well if those opinions where kept to themselves. Coming to a gamer community spouting out something that the majority (and you also would know this) is against, that's a very bad thing. And it also has another word: 'Provoke'.
Of course if a guy/gal provokes people they will react to that in a bad way and banning him.
If you're not easily provoked then good for you. But others are and don't share your "good Samaritan" views. This is a gaming community, things like that does not belong here, and continuously coming here, spouting out these things and provoking people, how do you people to react? Like you? Trying to help the guy? Or will they simple ban him and hopefully get rid of him? Just because people aren't sharing the same views as you does not give you the right to call them "assholes". That's a good way to lose some fingers, credibility and respect.

----------------------------

I ope you've read the entire post and I thank you for it. Now please respond in a friendly way without insults or other dis-pleasantries if you're going to respond.
Again, I just tried to share some light to the whole matter and how 'I / some of us' actually view the things.

Look, you can't even spell Nexuiz Ninjaz correctly. You haven't read threads I specifically linked to, told me you did but now you're taking it back and saying you read what I posted here. I'd like to repeat that I think you're full of shit and speak loosely.

You don't understand who the ninjaz are and what we are about so I'm not going to bother reading your uninformed opinions any longer. I'm pretty convinced you don't even read my posts in full based on what I did just read of your reply.

I'm not a man who likes to waste time and that's all you've been doing. Wasting time.

[-z-] wrote:Look, you can't even spell Nexuiz Ninjaz correctly

I don't think this is a major problem.

Other than that, yes I have read your thread, here. Not on the NN site. I'm not going back on my word, I never said I read your thread over at NN. Sure I didn't specify it was here, but I thought that was clear as this is where we talk anyway.

And thank you for taking time reading the post... You're a man of honor...

ai wrote:

[-z-] wrote:Look, you can't even spell Nexuiz Ninjaz correctly

I don't think this is a major problem.

This is EXACTLY the problem. Lack of respect for people outside your community. (I know you're going to try and throw this one back in my face, which will further emphasize my point that you don't understand the ninjaz).

ai wrote:Other than that, yes I have read your thread, here. Not on the NN site. I'm not going back on my word, I never said I read your thread over at NN. Sure I didn't specify it was here, but I thought that was clear as this is where we talk anyway.

I linked you to the NN thread for a reason. You told me you read it, you didn't tell me you read something DIFFERENT than what I asked you to read.

[-z-] wrote:

ai wrote:

[-z-] wrote:Look, you can't even spell Nexuiz Ninjaz correctly

I don't think this is a major problem.

This is EXACTLY the problem.

Oh my, come on. You're going to argue about a spelling error? I'm sorry but I spell my 'ninjas' with 's' not 'z'. I didn't put an 's' out or respect, I thought that how you spelled it. Yes, I forgot you used 'z'. But come on, THIS is not a major problem. You're making mountains out of mole hills. Drama queen.

[-z-] wrote:I linked you to the NN thread for a reason. You told me you read it, you didn't tell me you read something DIFFERENT than what I asked you to read.

Yeah ok, that was my bad. I thought you meant the thread on this one. I didn't go to the NN site as I don't want to go there and I assumed that what you wrote there is the same thing that you wrote here. So what does it matter where I go? Or didn't you include all the information of your system on these forums?

Man, I'm giving up on you. I tried to reason with you but I cannot do it anymore. You don't listen to others and when you have made your mind up on something it seems nothing can convince you otherwise.
I don't CARE if you think I've read it or not. I'm not going to repeat myself. Anyway, good luck to you. I've said mine. I'm going to bed.
Don't respond to this as I won't actually be involved in the same argument with the same dead ends.

Good night.

Well this is a little bit offtopic, but going with the flow of this thread I just want to say a few things. I agree and support every word that div0 wrote on his last post, although I consider the NN website as a good thing. Since many months I'm mostly lurking on this forum just trying to be informed about Nexuiz stuff, have fun and trying to understand what is going on, planning to contribute code to the project some day. But this thread became really painful to read and it came as a suprise to me that "ad hominem" arguments are not as outdated as I believed.

And I still can't understand how many people willing to spend endless hours trying to convince the world that their ideas are the way to go, just don't spend this precious time learning quake c and the Nexuiz codebase, making and testing their ideas empirically.

ai wrote:This wasn't a personal attack or anything. My opinion is already out there. Here's the thing: When Nexuiz Ninjas was formed you guys created a community. Now I'm all for that, however, what I disliked a bit was that you would split (at that time) a very small community in two.

Agreed. I was about to write the same. I don't think this forum split is a good for the Nexuiz community as a whole.

-z- wrote:The golden rule of the Ninjaz is respect. Something this community could give a shit less about. You continue to spread hate and negativity within the community but point your finger at us as the cause? Please! We've put Nexuiz on the map. Do you think this is an accident?

I'm not sure about your behaviour beign congruent with this sentence.

-z- wrote:A good leader would try and understand the bigger picture.

I honestly suggest to you that better don't waste your time with sentences like this, div0 is a leader already.

divVerent wrote:
You can't turn public servers into competitive ones that way. I learned that lesson too, after the flag carrier slowdown thing. It might work TECHNICALLY, but it is simply nothing you can do to your fellow players, who'll then simply play elsewhere.

I said this a while ago to several people here, i like public servers, but you must remember they are public servers and not everyone will play in the same way you will want too with great teamwork e.t.c, this is why clans and competitive games allow for this change, well just my 2 cents

Oh and like i said before i kinda like the idea of reduced flag-carrier speed divVerent if it helps to encourage some more teamplay even on publuc servers or competition, i mean its one simple change not something really complicated, if people don't like it then fair enough but i totally agree with you saying too many people like the open-wide maps and like to just zoom over everything where it isn't a problem in enclosed maps

You fail to understand our community but tell me you do. What you know is what you see and what you care to learn and understand. This is usually what directly affects you. However, as a manager, I'm required to see and understand a lot more.

As the leader of the Ninja community for nearly a year, following my involvement here, on IRC and in game I'm inclined to assume I know a bit more about the ninjaz and our culture. Yet you have the impudence to tell me I lack respect?

Check yourself.



Continue complaining here if you must.



And now back to CTF!

k0jak wrote:i totally agree with you saying too many people like the open-wide maps and like to just zoom over everything where it isn't a problem in enclosed maps

Yes, really thanks for saying this. Now k0jak said that open maps suck (as I said gazillion of times). Because k0jak said that, you finally have professional voice. And stop arguing about changing/adding/replacing CTF and look back at the maps. If the maps won't be easy-push-in, easy-push-out, ctf will work as it WORKS with several good maps available (me slightly kicks c.brutail for not fixing ctctf6). I highlighted k0jak because one argument against was we need professional opinions. So here you got it.

I totally agree. Only on few open maps, CTF actually works.

These are "multipath" maps like evilspacectf or (mostly) desertcastles, "fasttake" maps like mojo, and "half open" space maps like ame7ctf or what it is called (the map with the jumppad imposters).

On a certain group of these open maps, namely the terrain maps, getting around the map depends much more on movement skill and health stacking than on closed maps, as terrain hinders the normal (bunnyhopping) ways to move, and allows explosive jumping only.

On more closed maps, all this isn't a problem.

If you are a mapper, and you feel you must make an open map, please make sure most of the floors to walk on are planar, so one can bunnyhop his way without having to laser all the time.

The problem we were talking about here is mainly caused by open maps done wrong, and by the CTF capture record feature steering players' actions in a wrong way, shifting their focus from teamplay to speedcapping so the server says they are the best. It probably would be best to remove the CTF capture records feature (it should be no longer needed, now that we have race), but I already see the uproar from the NNs and some few "independent" speedcappers when I do this.

So yes, I cannot have any respect for [-z-] after what he's done to me and to others, e.g. ai. Sorry for me equating [-z-]'s behaviour with NN behaviour, but well, he's the leader, the top ninja, whatever - you can't blame me for seeing him representing the ninjaz.

Why do you need to remove? It can stay. Records make people find and exploit new techniques so that game could be fixed (instant rocket splash jump for those who forgot). The record which is done in maze style map is really worth more than done in greatwall or capturecity. I'm repeating it gazillion+1th time. People are usually clever creatures. If they see that they can rocketjump and score faster, they'll do it. Mappers know physics, know what tricks can be done, so they can easily avoid such things.

"Pseudo" open environments are possible, with skybox limitting people jumping over the mountains, trees, etc or scaling latter to the size, which would require to many laserjumps to reach the top to be practically useful. Instead of modelling small pines or spruces for forest, sequoias would be a better choise for nexuiz and still would look realistically (this is an example).

The problem with the records is that they educated people to do lone speedruns, instead of trying to do something good for their team. Speedrunners often try 10, 20 times in a sequence, always using the same "fastest" path, and if there is an enemy on it, they fail - and repeat. This is partially the problem [-z-] is now trying to solve in a hostile way.

Speedrunners work on empty maps (because of what you wrote), if you haven't noticed. The most prominent example is francotirador, longshot duo. Successful speedrun cap needs concentration and that nobody would get in your way. Speedcaps in CTF is only the way to cap the flag using already learned movement techniques for that particular map. No new record of old maps I know of was broken in public CTF having players in popular servers.

Sure, but people don't stop trying when new players come, but use the very same techniques for regular gameplay - which may have less success rate, but more successes per game

Sure. Why should they stop when you can reach the flag the quickest way possible. That's why nobody played quake in WALKING mode and that's why speedruns exist.