terencehill wrote:
OK.
Then let's do in this way:
first cap for me: 20 points,
I fail capping and another one picks the flag up and cap: 10 points,
second cap for me: 5 points.

Still the same system if u don't lose the flag:
first cap for me: 20 points,
second cap for me: 10 points,
third cap and next ones for me: 5 points.

Now the system is perfect Alpha

this shit is ridiculous, i won't even spend time responding

[-z-] wrote:

TVR wrote:Suggestion: Reduced flag carrier speed, no flag returns - flags remains at drop location for a period of time, frags count [each frag hampers the opposing team], wave respawn.

Hell no!

A denouncement requires an explanation.

TVR wrote:

[-z-] wrote:

TVR wrote:Suggestion: Reduced flag carrier speed, no flag returns - flags remains at drop location for a period of time, frags count [each frag hampers the opposing team], wave respawn.

Hell no!

A denouncement requires an explanation.

No flag returns is dumb. It forces a more offensive strategy which is exactly what we're trying to diffuse to emphasize teamwork. Also, the general consensus for scoring is flag captures.

Long*Shot wrote:I remember that game. It was slow and dull.
dull, dull, dull. and long.
I didnt see any spectacular team cooperation, what I saw was senseless rushes into the enemy base. The FCs didnt get "punished" for losing flags, so they would keep at it, again and again and again. Until my team "won".

You were punished (we get +6 for unlucky attempt), our whole team racked up points and if not that successful attempt of yours, we would have won. And winning while defending is bad, cause this isn't protect the flag.

Sorry, I havent seen that, was there a demo that I missed?

Why do you need demos when you played that game yourself. Previous example. Ok, map was bad, but any map will be bad with this model. I currently hate campers and spammers. Imagine if you could get even more points for defending. Nobody would ever attack and whole game would resort in lurking.

I disagree, I have played some games with superb teamplay on public CTF. In fact, I would go as far as to say that its enough that you have 2 players who play as a team and the game is done and the winning team known before hand. One player, the one of defence, usually sacrifices his score for the better good of the team. More people would do that if they didnt have to sacrifice anything, if they would actually gain from it.

You and jlue were playing as team then. What did it change? Almost nothing. Does it matter that 2 people play as a team? Yes. But they can't be compared to 8 defenders most of the time even 8 of those are not playing as team.

It is easy to nex people down and down again. If i could get more points for doing it again, I would probably unconsciously revert to defending only seeing that it gives much better results.

TVR wrote:Suggestion: Reduced flag carrier speed, no flag returns - flags remains at drop location for a period of time, frags count [each frag hampers the opposing team], wave respawn.

How do you imagine would be possible to cap then?
E.g. enemy drops flag in his base. How should we make it timeout and return to our base? Defending your flag in enemy base is impossible unless you make time difference between waves big enough to suffice for the flag to reach the timeout, which (time difference) is bad too. Time difference makes people wait and we don't need another cs. And this would encourage spawn camping in order not to let enemies to reach the flag again and reset timer.

I wonder how option #3 gets any votes at all.

alpha's vote was misplaced, though. The point of #3 is to make ONLY captures count. His suggestion is equivalent to 20p for cap, 5p for return, 0 for anything else, and in spirit similar to #2.

(NOTE: I had meant alpha here, not alien)

But then there is still 5 people who want caps-only scoring at FULL player speed?!?

I bet these are the very same players as those who always run alone with the flag and ignore any teamplay that should be part of CTF.

#3 is BROKEN, and you know it. You want to abuse its brokenness by running alone and bringing back like every 20th flag, because brute force eventually does it... Nexuiz's problem is that this actually works - which is CAUSED by the high speed.

To compensate for the issues with the high speed, the current scoring rewards flag returns. Rewarding mere fragging is indeed questionable

And I am not talking about FW and GW now. These two maps are entirely broken anyway. FW has to be as it is now, as it is a remake. And GW... that map was broken before, and if the change breaks it MORE, this is no argument. Try to rather find a map that was GOOD before and that this change BREAKS.

divVerent wrote:And I am not talking about FW and GW now. These two maps are entirely broken anyway. FW has to be as it is now, as it is a remake. And GW... that map was broken before, and if the change breaks it MORE, this is no argument. Try to rather find a map that was GOOD before and that this change BREAKS.

Completely agree to this, there is no map broken by the change, not even GW/FW are broken more than before, if anything they are better with this change.

Also one person with MG can of course defend the flag, if the defender is good and better than the FC he wouldn't have any problem anyways, but if he can defend you as a FC can also try to kill him before you take the flag.

divVerent wrote:I wonder how option #3 gets any votes at all.

Alien's vote was misplaced, though. The point of #3 is to make ONLY captures count. His suggestion is equivalent to 20p for cap, 5p for return, 0 for anything else, and in spirit similar to #2.

What do you mean by saying that my vote was misplaced?

You said you voted for #3, that is, "caps only count".

But you MEANT "caps and returns count", which is VERY similar to #2 (except that in #2, some other events generate 1 point, but I doubt these have any weight in the end).

I haven't voted yet. If I posted something stating this, I was affected by some sort of hallucination, so please forgive me.

alphagod wrote:Completely agree to this, there is no map broken by the change, not even GW/FW are broken more than before, if anything they are better with this change.

Also one person with MG can of course defend the flag, if the defender is good and better than the FC he wouldn't have any problem anyways, but if he can defend you as a FC can also try to kill him before you take the flag.

You definitely do not play gw or you wouldn't post this blasphemy. You can't kill defenders in gw because spawn points (most of them) are INSIDE the base. Killing them achieves absolutely nothing.

the hallucinations were on my side, I was referring to alpha

Alien wrote:You definitely do not play gw or you wouldn't post this blasphemy. You can't kill defenders in gw because spawn points (most of them) are INSIDE the base. Killing them achieves absolutely nothing.

Sad to say is that I do play GW, and I time my attacks with my teammates without them knowing it, this way I do get to kill the defenders, get the flag and shoot at them on the way out while boosting. Blasphemy, hardly strategy however yes. Also to ensure my escape I don't go in at the speed of sound I take my time, taking their weapons with me, leaving them to defend their base with nothing but a shotgun. Worked before, works now.

alpha wrote:

terencehill wrote:
OK.
Then let's do in this way:
first cap for me: 20 points,
I fail capping and another one picks the flag up and cap: 10 points,
second cap for me: 5 points.

Still the same system if u don't lose the flag:
first cap for me: 20 points,
second cap for me: 10 points,
third cap and next ones for me: 5 points.

Now the system is perfect Alpha

this shit is ridiculous, i won't even spend time responding

A part Alpha, that only know to complain, giving to me no explanations, and to propose nothing else,

can anyone give me some impression about this idea? Is it totally shit? Feel free to say it too (...).

Btw, of course people will vote for speed as I've said, they are all spoiled and want to keep being spoiled. They won't go for the reduced speed. And as Div0 said, I think many of them want to use the system, they want to keep the speed and yet keep getting the flag alone. The only reason IS that they want to be able to cap alone, they don't care about teamplay. Anyway, I think if nothing is going to change, more than the point system to just something a bit different I won't be playing CTF anymore, at least on in Nexuiz. I don't want TDMNWF.
Sad, but I'd rather play a real CTF mode.

terencehill wrote:

alpha wrote:

terencehill wrote:
OK.
Then let's do in this way:
first cap for me: 20 points,
I fail capping and another one picks the flag up and cap: 10 points,
second cap for me: 5 points.

Still the same system if u don't lose the flag:
first cap for me: 20 points,
second cap for me: 10 points,
third cap and next ones for me: 5 points.

Now the system is perfect Alpha

this shit is ridiculous, i won't even spend time responding

A part Alpha, that only know to complain, giving to me no explanations, and to propose nothing else,

can anyone give me some impression about this idea? Is it totally shit? Feel free to say it too (...).

Alien wrote:Just to add, such arguments such as you are noob are not valid because we all are noobs in comparison to kojak, bundy, red dragon. So if anyone arguments his opinion with it, please disregard it.

Don't pay attention to Alpha. It's probably part of his character to act like that.

Your idea is impossible to achieve with some of the team members in public ctf and you might be forced to score alone and alone and alone. Some of them even don't know what to do with flag. In 3vs3 matches it is not good cause there are dedicated def, off, middle. You shouldn't force deffender attack (at least how I understand). I might be wrong about 3vs3 though.

If speed gets reduced I quit nexuiz.

/me instantly reduces speed in nexuiz

alpha wrote:If speed gets reduced I quit nexuiz.

For no other reason except the fact you would need to rethink your game mode to a much more strategic approach. Anyways, we want true CTF, the only way to get it in here is through speed reduction, if you still want your super speed so you can agree to the fact two different game modes will please both crowds, it would be up to each server admin if they want the current 2.4.2 thing or the "balanced"(for some of us at least) and true CTF game mode. This will also open ideas for both to evolve depending on how each group of players want it.

alphagod wrote:

alpha wrote:If speed gets reduced I quit nexuiz.

For no other reason except the fact you would need to rethink your game mode to a much more strategic approach. Anyways, we want true CTF, the only way to get it in here is through speed reduction, if you still want your super speed so you can agree to the fact two different game modes will please both crowds, it would be up to each server admin if they want the current 2.4.2 thing or the "balanced"(for some of us at least) and true CTF game mode. This will also open ideas for both to evolve depending on how each group of players want it.

I am sick and tired of this uncertainty.

Linux or Hurd?
Apache or nginx or lighthttpd or par/catalyst?
perl or php or python or ruby?
gnome or kde or fluxbox or xfce?

give me a fucking break

CTF should be CTF, if you dumb down flag carriers you effectively kill CTF, and there would be no point playing this game any more, atleast for me.

tZork
your camping in game now gets 50 times easier, no wonder you are happy.

alpha wrote:CTF should be CTF, if you dumb down flag carriers you effectively kill CTF, and there would be no point playing this game any more, atleast for me.

Exactly your words. "CTF should be CTF". I couldn't agree more. However, the current game mode is NOT CTF. No matter how much you're trying to tell yourself or how much anybody else are trying to convince themselves. This current game mode we have is NOT CTF, it's Team Deathmatch with flags.

Denying that this isn't CTF is like denying you don't breath air.
And on another note Alpha, you are a good player. However, you have got to calm down. You seemed like a nice guy who could reason, but in your posts I see that I might have just been wrong.

There won't be need to be uncertain if two modes could exist. Just adding an extra tab in Nexuiz. Then there would be: DM, TDM, Keyhunt, CTF, Arena, CTFNWF (or whatever. This is the current "CTF") and etc. What's so wrong about that? I vote for that, who's with me?

ai wrote:

alpha wrote:CTF should be CTF, if you dumb down flag carriers you effectively kill CTF, and there would be no point playing this game any more, atleast for me.

Exactly your words. "CTF should be CTF". I couldn't agree more. However, the current game mode is NOT CTF. No matter how much you're trying to tell yourself or how much anybody else are trying to convince themselves. This current game mode we have is NOT CTF, it's Team Deathmatch with flags.

Denying that this isn't CTF is like denying you don't breath air.
And on another note Alpha, you are a good player. However, you have got to calm down. You seemed like a nice guy who could reason, but in your posts I see that I might have just been wrong.

There won't be need to be uncertain if two modes could exist. Just adding an extra tab in Nexuiz. Then there would be: DM, TDM, Keyhunt, CTF, Arena, CTFNWF (or whatever. This is the current "CTF") and etc. What's so wrong about that? I vote for that, who's with me?

there are not enough good servers now, and there would never be enough servers for 2 kinds of ctf. The best EU server (degreen) would run gayctf. And I will not calm down on this issue, because it is really big for me.

alpha wrote:If speed gets reduced I quit nexuiz.

Please do reduce the speed.

As always, I vote to let it be a cvar.
However, today I've played a little CTF on Green's server. What I've generally noticed is the almost absolute lack of teamplay. There were two other people in my team, who've used teamsay binds correctly. The other's were roaming around the map, trying to frag the other team. Result: we couldn't cap, or it was very hard.
That's no efficient. And I don't really think that adding more rules would encourage teamplay. In fact, it'd ruin the game more, because people will get confused, or won't even notice that they can't go faster. Lot of the players on public doesn't even bunny hop at all, how'd they notice that their movement speed is capped? Think about it, a newby who's just joined the game, _somehow_ manages to grab the flag, but instantly got's annihilated because he can't escape, and his team doesn't even try to defend him anyway.
Do you realy think that adding more rules would encourage THINKING?
...
...
...
...
I don't even want you to answere this

alpha wrote:there are not enough good servers now, and there would never be enough servers for 2 kinds of ctf. The best EU server (degreen) would run gayctf. And I will not calm down on this issue, because it is really big for me.

Relax man, this is just a game! And btw, there were several changes in the history of Nexuiz, eg. the laser's push was much lower in 1.0. Doing these fance speed-booster moves was hard, and not a lot player could do it (right, esteel?).
I was very unhappy when it got changed.
Control your anger, you're with friends here.

C.Brutail wrote:Control your anger, you're with friends here.

right.

RoKenn wrote:Please do reduce the speed. Smile

tZork wrote:/me instantly reduces speed in nexuiz Twisted Evil

alpha wrote:

C.Brutail wrote:Control your anger, you're with friends here.

right.

Well that's down right disrespectful.

divVerent wrote:To explain:
2. Frags do not count, everything else does
Flag carrier kill = +1
Flag Pickup = +1
Flag loss by suicide = -1
Flag return = +5
Flag capture = +20

I vote for this for public servers, or something close to this. I'm guessing it would require a lot of testing to find the right points balance.

For pickup/tourney/pro/official/whateveryouwannacallit matches, I'd vote for only caps count. OR something like 10 points per cap, 2 points per returns and nothing else just so that it's not just "attacking attacking attacking etc.". There's no need for a complicated system in serious matches, players should know what they have to do, they're playing to make their team win, individual score is not an issue. Showing frags and such on the scoreboard, even if they don't count, for statistic purposes it is enough.

As for FC slow down, I can't say I have a real opinion. For the most part, I think it could work because it makes it difficult to cap without help from teammates. On the other hand, for anyone having played 4v4 or 5v5 with good players, it is not necessary at all. Good players = good aim, they can nex your face even if you're very fast so you need help from teammates either way. In fact, it would make it nearly impossible to cap. So I guess, yes for public servers but not for real matches.

alphagod wrote:

Alien wrote:You definitely do not play gw or you wouldn't post this blasphemy. You can't kill defenders in gw because spawn points (most of them) are INSIDE the base. Killing them achieves absolutely nothing.

Sad to say is that I do play GW, and I time my attacks with my teammates without them knowing it, this way I do get to kill the defenders, get the flag and shoot at them on the way out while boosting. Blasphemy, hardly strategy however yes. Also to ensure my escape I don't go in at the speed of sound I take my time, taking their weapons with me, leaving them to defend their base with nothing but a shotgun. Worked before, works now.

You can't kill them all. Spawn points are inside the base. You kill one, he immediately respawns near you. Only several spawnpoints are outside. This is the main problem why gw is hard to attack map. Killing them all is possible when only there are several defenders. Just checked the map the sources. There are 4 inside and 2 outside. All 6 were inside with original Shoe's map before 2 were moved outside by C.Brutail.

alpha wrote:

C.Brutail wrote:Control your anger, you're with friends here.

right.

RoKenn wrote:Please do reduce the speed. Smile

tZork wrote:/me instantly reduces speed in nexuiz Twisted Evil

Again, control your anger. I sence you lack some kind of sence of humour here.