ai wrote:

alpha wrote:CTF should be CTF, if you dumb down flag carriers you effectively kill CTF, and there would be no point playing this game any more, atleast for me.

Exactly your words. "CTF should be CTF". I couldn't agree more. However, the current game mode is NOT CTF. No matter how much you're trying to tell yourself or how much anybody else are trying to convince themselves. This current game mode we have is NOT CTF, it's Team Deathmatch with flags.

So far you are right. But when making ONLY captures count and not changing anything else, we get CTFADIP: "Capture The Flag Alone (Defending Is Pointless)"

Is that what you want?

Reducing the speed is obviously not an option to turn this "CTFADIP" into real CTF, just look at the vote results. It would end up as a mode nobody wants to play.

Any other idea to turn CTFADIP into CTF?

nifrek wrote:

divVerent wrote:To explain:
2. Frags do not count, everything else does
Flag carrier kill = +1
Flag Pickup = +1
Flag loss by suicide = -1
Flag return = +5
Flag capture = +20

I vote for this for public servers, or something close to this. I'm guessing it would require a lot of testing to find the right points balance.

For pickup/tourney/pro/official/whateveryouwannacallit matches, I'd vote for only caps count. OR something like 10 points per cap, 2 points per returns and nothing else just so that it's not just "attacking attacking attacking etc.". There's no need for a complicated system in serious matches, players should know what they have to do, they're playing to make their team win, individual score is not an issue. Showing frags and such on the scoreboard, even if they don't count, for statistic purposes it is enough.

As for FC slow down, I can't say I have a real opinion. For the most part, I think it could work because it makes it difficult to cap without help from teammates. On the other hand, for anyone having played 4v4 or 5v5 with good players, it is not necessary at all. Good players = good aim, they can nex your face even if you're very fast so you need help from teammates either way. In fact, it would make it nearly impossible to cap. So I guess, yes for public servers but not for real matches.

Nifrek/DiVerent, your brilliance astounds me.

Want to encourage teamplay in ctf? Make all points flag related. Encourages defense, offense, and makes random people want to kill the fc. Just be sure to list how the scoring works on either the scoreboard or server info. Remember, though: if we were playing ctf irl with, say, paintball guns, the only thing that would count would be captures.

As for the slowdown, it might be best to just make it a voteable cvar, and list the command in the server information. That way, the players on a pub who are currently playing could decide what they like best. After a week or two, it would become clear which is preferred.

Also, question: does this affect mortar jumping or rocket boosting? I think the implication is obvious.

I don't see defending being pointless in what you have suggested div. After all if you don't defend, the other team scores and they win. If people aren't going to realise that their own actions affect the outcome of a team game, their team loses and they don't have a high personal.

I think a lot of why we have deathmatch with flags at the moment is that some of the more popular maps like FW and GW are not good CTF maps but work OK for team deathmatch with flags.

There's this unfortunate thing in many games that a map which is popular is often not very good for gameplay. If you ever have a vote and one option is some crappy novelty map, it'll be much more likely to win the vote than a map which offers decent balanced gameplay. Play Trackmania Nations and you will see this time and again. You will also see the reason why we're lucky that Radiant is so hard to configure and use, otherwise anyone with a stupid idea, and no idea what makes good gameplay or good performance produces a million different maps with no reason why anyone other than them or their mates will want to play.

LOL, then Radiant should have been so hard to use that M****USA can't install it well, maybe if he learns how to do Assault maps, it helps everyone.

And the problem is that if CTF scoring is based on caps only AND the current flag carrier speed is kept, there will be not much point of teamplay. Camping helps, and going into the enemy base alone and trying to get the flag alone helps, but stuff like going together with the flag carrier will not help much (the attacker ALREADY has good chances alone, and by going with him your team loses a defender). That is why it is CTFA then - Capture The Flag Alone. And CTFA is not a game mode I want to play - if I want to run alone as fast as possible, I can now play Race.

There are many people who wants cap only, some I've met online and shared their opinion and some that has already voted. I don't believe for a second that people will only attack, more than they actually do already. Many times I play public is there hardly isn't any defense at all, and when I see that I jump right into the enemys base and grab the flag.
If people will stop defend less because it's cap only system, then there would have to be no defenders at all the entire game. Somehow I doubt that will happen.

I don't even think anything will happen outside what already hasn't been experienced in a game. I see people throwing themselves on the flag whether they can escape or not (affectively giving 5 points to the other team), I see people roaming around like crazy chickens. If this is already taking place, how much of cap only system will break the current players tradition?

O for one would still defend, I don't have about points, I care to do my team good.

I don't even think anything will happen outside what already hasn't been experienced in a game. I see people throwing themselves on the flag whether they can escape or not (affectively giving 5 points to the other team), I see people roaming around like crazy chickens. If this is already taking place, how much of cap only system will break the current players tradition?

Well, as there is no PENALTY for just capping alone, I will do that too, because it would be the best for my team (when the player count is high, so losing a defender does not cost that much).

Trust me, if people throw themselves on flags time after time without being able to cap they get frustrated so eventually they will stop (of course not all). However, who says there should be a penalty for dropping the flag anyway? Dying and losing all your weapons, health and armor is penalty enough.

But if people ALREADY are throwing themselves on the flags giving away free points, I don't think it will hurt even if it is cap only. They will never stop throwing themselves on the flags (cap only or no cap only), even if the penalty was 100 points to the other team. You can try that and you will see. Most cappers don't even care about the penalty, they care about capping and it will always be like that.

I think all you guys are looking into this waay to much. You are all thinking too much. If we do this and that people will act like this. If thousands other games had this system, why can't Nexuiz? Just because it's fast? Come on, give me a better reason than that.

ai: try reading what I wrote.

Currently: if I throw myself at the flag all the time, I need more than 28.5% success rate to even help my team score at all.

Caps only: even 1% success rate gains enough to justify it.

See the problem? It emphasizes the "kamikaze capturing" problem that can then only be fixed by designing maps to have stronger defense (like hydronex).

Loosing all weapons and respawning is not punishment enough for kamikaze flag-grabbing - after all getting fragged *is* a normal part of the game and as such isn't recognizable as a specific penalty.

And even though the shotgun is weak, it is not totally useless, and one can often cap without any weapon at ALL, by simply outrunning the defenders. They get their chance ONCE - when you are in their base. If you manage to leave it, you have won.

Yeah, somebody (looks above) finally admitted that sg is weak. And shotgun is totally useless for caping. You most often don't fight with flag but try to run away.

Alien wrote:Yeah, somebody (looks above) finally admitted that sg is weak. And shotgun is totally useless for caping. You most often don't fight with flag but try to run away.

If by weak, you mean you don't try. You can kill someone in 3 shots on spawn with a shotgun.

It has the power, you just need to know how to use it.

divVerent wrote:ai: try reading what I wrote.

Ok, I re-read, now it's your turn

If people already kamikaze themselves to get the flag, you won't lose anything with cap only system either more than those 5 points for flag return. But if you want a penalty for cap only system, isn't it possible to take away 0.25 points for flag return and once it has gained 1 point (i.e. flag returned 4 times) then that point would be reduced for the team that lost the flag. This value doesn't even have to show, it could just simply be a memory thing that the server keep track of, and once it has reached 1 point it would tell something like '-1 point for loosing the flag 4 times" or something.

I really don't care as long as a cap only system will be in place. Also calling this current mode for 'CTF' was a HUGE mistake, as now people believe this to be CTF which it ain't. I would request to at least rename the current mode to something else and bring in true CTF (with or without the penalty system above or some other).

Come on you other cap only fans, where are you? Don't let me fight this out all on my own. Where's my support? Damn you guys!

Why is option 2 leading? That makes no sense. Do people acctually KNOW what they are voting for?
And are you opening a new poll later with only the top3 or 4 options? I think the cap-only guys can be merged into 1 group really.

ai wrote:Come on you other cap only fans, where are you? Don't let me fight this out all on my own. Where's my support? Damn you guys!

Sir, here sir! Reporting for duty! I really don't care about any penalty, I just want ctf no matter how bad, of course having the speed reduction would actually balance the game but some people just can't accept the fact that balance is good and through it they would improve their game and aim not just their speed skills.

alpha wrote:there are not enough good servers now, and there would never be enough servers for 2 kinds of ctf. The best EU server (degreen) would run gayctf. And I will not calm down on this issue, because it is really big for me.

You are kidding me right? Just because degreen is the best EU server(i ping best at it ^_^) still means it is Esteel's choice at what and where he runs. We the CTF lovers have to play some TDMNWF where any guy with no aim or skill whatsoever can score. cap. fly all by himself, while we are the minority here(obviously) doesn't mean we can't have our CTF and you guys get your TDMNWF. The difference is not too great for you guys anyways, it's just that now you are forced to fight for the flag and die till you get used to the idea and get better.

Morfar: They probably do, something very very sad.

Where is the difference between caps-only system with penalty and points system?Caps-only system with penalty x 20 = points system. Caps-only system should be without any penalties, cause it is CAPS-ONLY.

Alien wrote:Where is the difference between caps-only system with penalty and points system?Caps-only system with penalty x 20 = points system. Caps-only system should be without any penalties, cause it is CAPS-ONLY.

Hey now, you don't even want caps only, so stay out of this

Anyway. I introduced the penalty system for 'caps' only mostly to satisfy div0. I don't really care if there is one or not, but the main point is that 1 cap results with 1 point. Now this penalty system I introduced isn't as severe as the whole frag/point system you other guys want. While this cap penalty system can still be devastating if you have careless runners. Cause if you have a good defense where cappers barely make it out of there it will be hard to earn that extra 1 point that you lost by losing the flag. But yet, you won't lose points as soon as you drop the flag like the other system.

Sure you will, just "invisible points". No difference, really, to a system where you get 20 points for a cap, and 5 points for returning the flag - which is exactly what alpha proposed.

The major difference is that this 1 point won't be taken away until 4 returns have been made. I.e. if a team loses the flag 3 times and leads with 1 point, they still are the leading team. Once the 4th time the flag is lost then the other team will gain 1 point (or the leading team will lose 1 point, don't care) and the score will be even.

This is at least better than no system. Give me a break here div0. It seems you're just against 'cap' only system totally, no matter what people are saying and trying to do.

Also, which post by Alpha, I don't take anything he says seriously as he just complains about everything and don't want to change anything. He is also too hotheaded right now.

EDIT: Besides, this way it's still not TDMNWF, as this 'mode' only can be won/lost circling around flags. No other stupid points like frags, deaths, etc. However, this was also just one quick proposal, not saying this is how it should be. The other 'cap' only people have to step in and say what they think.

I would agree with caps but not this hidden nonsense. Wtf with this hidden thing? You can never know whether you're leading by one point or just by one unsuccessful attack.

ai wrote:The major difference is that this 1 point won't be taken away until 4 returns have been made. I.e. if a team loses the flag 3 times and leads with 1 point, they still are the leading team. Once the 4th time the flag is lost then the other team will gain 1 point (or the leading team will lose 1 point, don't care) and the score will be even.

This is at least better than no system. Give me a break here div0. It seems you're just against 'cap' only system totally, no matter what people are saying and trying to do.

I am actually not against the system you proposed, except that I see no difference between your idea and the following system:

+20 for flag capture
-5 to the last flag carrier for a flag return (will add an option to do this)
Fraglimit: 20*caps - 15

It is MATHEMATICALLY EQUIVALENT. It IS a point system, and I have nothing against it (it actually does just what i want it to do - give points for frags and returns, anything else is not that important). It just is not caps only, which you claim it to be.

http://svn.icculus.org/nexuiz/trunk/dat ... iew=markup

Just added a way to penalize the last one who had carried the flag on return, instead of rewarding the one who returned it. Now your system is totally possible in the points system.

Yeah, I know that mathematically it is equivalent to the current system. I never denied that. However, if other so called 'cap' only people would agree to this kind of system then everything would be fine.
Of course calling it though 'cap only' would be wrong.

And to you Alien: If you do not like the hidden flag returns, then there could be a place to display how many returns have been made so far by each team if you'd like that.

I'm still for a true cap only system more than anything, but at least this return penalty thing is a start. I won't budge more than this. I basically want a CTF game that's based solely on the fate of the flags.
But as I said, the other cap only people have to step up and express their opinion.

Even the "middle" system is based just on the fate of flags. But yes, I do not care if shooting the FC gives points or not. Caps and Returns are the only IMPORTANT things for me that should count.

I also do not care whether the returner gets points or the other team loses. No difference.

divVerent wrote:+20 for flag capture
-5 to the last flag carrier for a flag return (will add an option to do this)
Fraglimit: 20*caps - 15

I quite like the penalty thing but why not have a static fraglimit? Surely that means no one at the beginning knows when the game will finish?

I am all for separating individual scores from the team score.

Hidden flag returns seems not very competitive and brings randomness that's why I am against it. Btw, I was never against caps only system (check what I replied to morfar's post in another thread), I am against BOOST REDUCTION, which solves nothing -> it does not make people play in teams, but makes it so that you can't get victory for your spammy & campy teammates. Your fate is decided if you get into team, which does not care about $#*^.

To div:
Not sure, how you count this:

Code: Select all

Fraglimit: 20*caps - 15

What does it mean? If you have capped 1 time, the frag limit is 5?

Alien wrote:Hidden flag returns seems not very competitive and brings randomness that's why I am against it.

I did suggest that the number of returns could be displayed per team. Something like 'Team flag returns' and underneath that the number would show. The numbers would be something like 0-3. Meaning if you returned a flag 4 times it would reset back to 0.
It doesn't have to be hidden.

Alien wrote:Btw, I was never against caps only system (check what I replied to morfar's post in another thread)

Good to know that you're not against cap only system. Which thread do you refer to?

http://forums.alientrap.local/viewtopic.php?p=44819#44819

Alien wrote:I agree with ai and morfar. Oldschool ctf Wink. Now you lose because your teammates are fragged > 100 times by camping and spamming team of your opponents. There is no incentive to attack while you can WIN defending. If you go to minus with unsuccessful attacks, that's even worse. It's better lose trying to attack then win without trying.

But no speed reduction. I would like both modes, but speed limiting makes you sad when you don't have a team. When you don't have a team even 30% boost reduction for enemies won't help cause they (my team) can't defend anyway.

morfar wrote:Do people actually KNOW what they are voting for?

No, we don't.

Indeed I was just wondering if the poll shouldn't take place after this discussion. I realized I'm still making up my mind and I voted already.

One more remark:

Aren't you trying to solve a social problem with technical means?

How do the following types of CTF games compare:

a) FFA CTF
b) private CTF (with experienced players)
c) clan matches, in which teams organize themselves before the match

?

FFA CTF will always have problems. Make the scoring system perfect, you'll have enough people who don't care or don't understand.

Alien wrote:http://forums.alientrap.local/viewtopic.php?p=44819#44819

Alien wrote:I agree with ai and morfar. Oldschool ctf Wink. Now you lose because your teammates are fragged > 100 times by camping and spamming team of your opponents. There is no incentive to attack while you can WIN defending. If you go to minus with unsuccessful attacks, that's even worse. It's better lose trying to attack then win without trying.

But no speed reduction. I would like both modes, but speed limiting makes you sad when you don't have a team. When you don't have a team even 30% boost reduction for enemies won't help cause they (my team) can't defend anyway.

I'm sorry to have judged you by that then. There's too many CTF discussion threads and I apparently got them mixed them up along with the people. Good thing this one is a sticky now.

I also kinda agree with having a vote till after the discussions so people can make up their minds. Something that morf said, having the top 3-4 winners of this poll. That of course means more rambling on with this but I suppose it might be worth it.

[-z-] wrote:

TVR wrote:

[-z-] wrote:

TVR wrote:Suggestion: Reduced flag carrier speed, no flag returns - flags remains at drop location for a period of time, frags count [each frag hampers the opposing team], wave respawn.

Hell no!

A denouncement requires an explanation.

It forces a more offensive strategy which is exactly what we're trying to diffuse to emphasize teamwork.

Automatic timed flag returns require greater offencive and defencive play in total, the team flag requires defending with the difficulty proportional to distance from base, while the enemy flag requires transportation with difficulty proportional to distance from enemy base.

_____________________________________

[-z-] wrote:Also, the general consensus for scoring is flag captures.

The value of a quantitative poll is incomparably low to value of a qualitative poll [requires the usage of text votes]

_____________________________________

Alien wrote:

TVR wrote:Suggestion: Reduced flag carrier speed, no flag returns - flags remains at drop location for a period of time, frags count [each frag hampers the opposing team], wave respawn.

... E.g. enemy drops flag in his base. How should we make it timeout and return to our base? ...

If the flag has already reached the opposing base, it is the opposing team's imperative to have an advantage in retaining flag so they can score.

_____________________________________

Alien wrote:... (time difference) is bad too.

That is subjective assessment, wave respawn rewards the elimination of defenders before stealing the flag [A 'proper' sequence of attack].

_____________________________________

divVerent wrote:#3 is BROKEN ... Nexuiz's problem is that this actually works - which is CAUSED by the high speed. ...

It's is not about the absolute velocity, but rather the relative velocity between the flag carrier & pursuers.

If the acceleration, and therefore distance between the flag carrier and pursuer remains uniform, whatever lead the flag carrier has will be maintained, along with all other advantages from leading. [First to pickups, weapon fire by pursuer accelerates flag carrier, while weapon fire by flag carrier decelerates pursuer, projectiles reach pursuer quicker than vice-versa, path of pursuer is predictable, while vice-versa isn't, etc.]

All current CTF maps are linear, are and defended by preventing the opposing team from scoring by holding the opposing flag.

Trying to defend the base is less rewarding than attempting to retrieve the flag, as once the flag is returned, as long as the flag carrier has any lead on the opposing team respawn point, the flag carrier will be able to score before the opposing team can retake the flag due to the maintained lead from constant velocity.

Therefore, handicapping the flag carrier's acceleration is the simplest, and most effective method of balancing CTF across all maps with the exception of MojoCTF, the only existing balanced map [The opposing team is ALREADY able to retake the flag before the flag carrier can score] relying on player propulsion.

_____________________________________

divVerent wrote:... Reducing the speed is obviously not an option ... just look at the vote results ...

This poll is defective by design, text votes should have been used to garner explanations, and allow reconsideration of vote.

_____________________________________

divVerent wrote:... To compensate ... the current scoring rewards flag returns. Rewarding mere fragging is indeed questionable ...

The distinction between the two is made with sequence, combat engagement before or after the enemy steal the flag.

The design flaw lies with a greater reward for permitting the enemy to steal the flag before an engagement, rather than greater combat efficiency by engagement with the enemy as soon as possible.

Therefore, automatic timed flag returns reward the elimination of the enemy as soon as possible, as a delay will only permit the enemy to move the flag away.

_____________________________________

TVR wrote:Suggestion: Reduced flag carrier speed, no flag returns - flags remains at drop location for a period of time, frags count [each frag hampers the opposing team], wave respawn.

This suggestion has now been explained thoroughly.