That topic is stupid, as this feature is ALREADY THERE.

Stop arguing and try it out on the OTLD servers.

Mirio wrote:RL as a start weapon! is everyone happy now?

I can has mortar?

Mirio wrote:RL as a start weapon! is everyone happy now?

No.

divVerent wrote:If you want a stronger SG, why not something like Q2's super shotgun?

Cause there is no reason to add another shotgun when this particular one could be fixed.

If this gets implemented I think the damage should be reduced for those seconds as well. I believe it's unfair to have a respawner have full fire power while technically being invincible.

Alien wrote:

divVerent wrote:If you want a stronger SG, why not something like Q2's super shotgun?

Cause there is no reason to add another shotgun when this particular one could be fixed.

It can NOT get fixed, if it should stay a starting weapon.

And if it should not stay a starting weapon, we need another starting weapon, as the laser alone is not good enough.

Laser would be good enough if 3 seconds invincibility would be by default.

Alien wrote:Laser would be good enough if 3 seconds invincibility would be by default.

No, it wouldn't it really wouldn't. Not all people can get a weapon under 3 seconds, not all people know how to use the laser, even experienced players will have trouble either finding weapons or defend themselves with only laser. In crowded CTF servers for instance people will take all the weapons all the time, leaving the freshly spawned player with nothing, then what?

Laser only starting weapon is impossible unless you want to screw the current player base over. Can't you see how bad that would be, really? (Don't think only about yourself if you can handle yourself with only laser, think about others as well)

In 3 seconds people can reach enemy base and grab the flag. And no, I'm not good with laser either (actually, I suck) so I can really say that surviving with laser is possible unless you're playing in eggandbacon or similar sort of maps (even there it's easy to score with laser only). In good maps you usually spawn at your base (talking about CTF) and you can take time to search for the weapon. If people play with dumb players who grab all the weapons possible it's not the fault of the laser but lack of the teamplay. In DM you shouldn't spawn at the same place where you were killed. If that happens neither shotgun nor laser would help (see pavlvs's video for reference).

It seems shotgun keeping as primary weapon idea is only backed up by spam/one room map gameplays where enemies are all around and neither 3 secs of invincibility nor 15 would help. Going on with this philosophy I could also argue that we should start with nex because shotgun is useless in facing worlds, greatwall...

Both UT and Quake had one long range weapon as a starting one and nexuiz has laser which is enough.

You are free to try this out on your own server.

g_start_weapon_shotgun 0
g_respawnshieldtime 3

You'll see that the laser does NOT suffice. But just try it out and host a server with it. You have the freedom to do so.

Another thing: you should not stay invulnerable once you fire a weapon. It'd be unfair if you shoot someone, but he can't shoot back because of your spawn shield. This is why the spawn shield automatically turns itself off after having shot a weapon. Could MAYBE change this to turn the shield off after damaging an enemy (so you stay invulnerable while laser jumping only), but really don't see the point in that. Maybe someone else.

It does not suffice when/if you attack with laser only.

What do I do now is going to nex place, taking nex, also taking rl if in my way. After taking nex I drop shotgun if playing with config. Tend up using nex instead of shotgun in close combat (meh) cause it's more efficient -> using shotgun you're killed earlier because shotgun doesn't start shooting 2 and 3 blasts if you're dead. Also take hagar because of rockets, but can't drop it because it also drops rockets. So actually I usually use only 3 weapons laser, nex, rl. I use shotgun only when I'm lazy to take something better and usually end up dead for using/abusing 2nd fire mode hoping that enemy wouldn't be pushed away/wouldn't kill me in that time.

One thing that I always wondered is why the heck people are dropping they shotgun, it's a weapon, you do not suffer from actually having it in your inventory, dropping the shotgun means you want to die, pretty much.
I can't tell you how many times shotgun has helped me. Cause you see, Nex has a long refire and sometimes you don't take MG so this is what I do. I shoot Nex when in close combat, immediately switch to shotgun, either press primary or secondary (depending how close the enemy is). If I use primary I shoot like 2-3 times, then after either 2-3 primary shots or one secondary I then switch back to Nex. I continue this until either the enemy is dead or me. Cause if I miss with the Nex hopefully I injure the guy with the shotgun making him even more vulnerable.
Many times I actually end up killing the person with the shotgun as I miss with the Nex. Also primary fire can reach a long way, I use it all the time when not having another weapon. If in CTF for instance, the enemy has a flag and running, of course I wouldn't want to use the laser cause then it would mean more boost for the enemy, hence why I'm using the shotgun, and sometimes I end up killing him.

Do not underestimate the shotgun just because you don't know how to use it. And do NEVER throw the shotgun away, why do you/people do that? It doesn't hurt you in any way having a backup weapon, it's just plain stupid.

Cause in current form secondary fire mode is useless and there much better weapons. Furthermore, it's easier to manage everything with mouse wheel when you have only 3 weapons (spin it forward or backward). Shotgun should be used for close fighting not nex.

Alien wrote:Shotgun should be used for close fighting not nex.

Alien wrote:After taking nex I drop shotgun if playing with config. Tend up using nex instead of shotgun in close combat (meh) cause it's more efficient

Hypocrite?
I do use shotgun in close combat, I also use Nex in close combat, I switch between those all the time, one Nex shot -> shotgun -> one Nex shot -> shotgun. Whenever Nex reloads or I in certain situations I do use shotgun. Actually I prefer using shotgun over other weapons, and in certain situations over other weapons. Electro for instance, I'm better with shotgun than Electro. If I miss a lot with mortar I usually switch to shotgun so that I can have hitscan weapon, same if I see that my rockets from RL are too slow or I miss I switch to shotgun as well.
Well, the number 2 is just above the 'W' so it's not so hard to switch to it. But weapon switching, whether by binds or by mouse it's all personal preference, I just can't use the mouse wheel to change weapons. Some mice are also very sensitive and might mess it up, I'd rather use reliable binds.

Why do you think/say the sec fire mode is useless? Please elaborate more on that than just saying it without backing it up. It really isn't useless, 3 fast primary shots in a sequence, how more useless is that than the primary? Also keep in mind shotgun is a close combat weapon, all shotguns in the world are close combat.
Fallout 2 had a shotgun which fired all of it's magazine (7-8 shots) in sequence ^_^ This is the same concept only 3 shots.

What?

Should (in obligation sense) means how it should/ought to be not what I do/is now. Shotgun should be more efficient in close combat than long range sniping weapon. However, it isn't the case now. Nexuiz looks like CS where people fight with AWPs all the time.

Fallout has turn based combat so it does not matter how the particular weapon shoots. You can't be attacked during your turn.

I've been elaborating about useless second fire all the time (done that 4 times at least). Even created a video to show and a patch to try other combinations. Secondary fire 1st shot pushes enemy even it is stationary. Therefore 2nd and 3rd usually miss because you can't reaim in the short time inbetween. It gets even worse if enemy is jumping because your arm can't be so fast to follow the target. The only way sec. fire works is if the enemy is standing straight ahead and is not moving sideways. Another thing why secondary is useless in close combat is that successful nex means instakill where your shotgun is able to shoot only 1 of 3 shots if both opponents start shooting at the same time. Therefore it's more efficient to use nex.

Alien wrote:Another thing why secondary is useless in close combat is that successful nex means instakill where your shotgun is able to shoot only 1 of 3 shots if both opponents start shooting at the same time. Therefore it's more efficient to use nex.

All weapons cannot be the same or otherwise only one weapon would be used all the time. If shotgun sec would be one shot and very strong, it wouldn't be much different than the Nex, what fun is it in that, no variety. In this case it would be: In close combat, use a strong 'Nex with spread' i.e. shotgun, when enemy is far away, use the Nex.
Sec fire also doesn't push the enemy that much and one can easily follow an enemy with the arm if you can predict where he's going and you've got a relatively steady arm.

However, Nex is a unique weapon, shotgun is a unique weapon. They all have their different uses, strengths and weaknesses. This argument is starting to get pointless. It seems you want all weapons to be equal (well, in this case shotgun equal to Nex but used in different situations).

ai wrote:All weapons cannot be the same or otherwise only one weapon would be used all the time. If shotgun sec would be one shot and very strong, it wouldn't be much different than the Nex, what fun is it in that, no variety. In this case it would be: In close combat, use a strong 'Nex with spread' i.e. shotgun, when enemy is far away, use the Nex.

Yes, exactly. It is the same thing in Quake. One uses rail for long range fights and uses shotgun (cause it IS very good wpn) in close fights. I'm against the current tendency to use nex (awp) all the time. Game currently consists of nex whores, rl whores, campers and spammers. Why shouldn't there be any cq dogfights where the shotgun miss/hit would be vital? Nexuiz is fast enough that people wouldn't hit all the time.

ai wrote:Sec fire also doesn't push the enemy that much and one can easily follow an enemy with the arm if you can predict where he's going and you've got a relatively steady arm.

Yes, when target is STATIONARY, AT THE SAME PLANE and STRAIGHT AHEAD and not when target is LASERJUMPING or STRAFING all the time or you're involved in cq combat because positions change too quickly.

ai wrote:However, Nex is a unique weapon, shotgun is a unique weapon. They all have their different uses, strengths and weaknesses. This argument is starting to get pointless. It seems you want all weapons to be equal (well, in this case shotgun equal to Nex but used in different situations).

I want all weapons to be BALANCED (equal if you like it) and not the way that nex in all ways is better than shottie. Crylink sucked and was buffed up. Why everyone was happy? Because it was another weapon you could use and pick up not because you would get more cells for the nex. Shotgun in unique weapon in its basic form cause it is very slow to reload and usually deadly if shot hits and not like it shoots 3 shots if one shot would be more effective.

Now, you WOULD have done that with nex only with ONE shot. A one shotgun shot still would be more effective. You can see in the video that you hit only first shot shooting second time (two were missed because of mkzelda's air movement).

Don't tell me that this combo is also one of the excuses to keep lasers secondary fire to switch to previously used weapon (no offence).

Nice frag, btw.

Alien wrote:Now, you WOULD have done that with nex only with ONE shot.

With that mindset you might as well have said you could do the same with mortar, RL, electro, crylink, mg and any other weapon as well.
Not all people have Nex _all the time_, not all people are able to use Nex as it requires skill, just as it required skill to use shotgun. Out of 5 times, only 1 time did he hit him with 1 sec fire shot and the rest missed. But he barely got him with the one as well as his aim was off. He was also so far away that secondary would be more useless there than primary, so in that particular situation a primary would have been better.

One shotgun shot wouldn't be more effective the last time he shot (when they both were in the air), the enemy lost 3 times as much health there than what one primary would have done, i.e. primary not more effective.

It's all about skill and how well you can anticipate which mode to shoot with. Just like any other weapon, shotgun is very powerful.

Honestly i fail to see the relevance of this thread.. There already is an option to have a spawnshield and i think the current default (OFF) is good for 'a basis in all game modes'.
If you want a improved shotgun take a look at the crylink or the hlac! Both are capable weapons in the right hands. Currently that shotgun is not too powerful which it needs to be as a starting weapon but it can still pack a punch closeup or with three primary shots even at a certain distance.
The whole arsenal of guns in Nexuiz is nicely balanced and all of them are quite usable and can deal lots of damage. If some people use the nexgun more often i guess its because they feel like they can hit better with it then with others. I mean what the hell, in SVN there are effective counter guns like the machinegun, the campingrifle and a lot of general useful guns like the crylink, mortar, electro, hlac..).
It seems most people that complain about the nexgun are ctf players.. well there are nexguns ON BOTH SIDES of the map, use YOURS too or one of the counter weapons in existance. In other games modes just try to control the nexgun so you enemy does not get it!

Ffs, you either do not read or pretend to read and do not understand anything. The points is shotgun secondary would be much better as a one shot. It's a proven FACT! Why somebody should be so stupid and weaken the gun? (Talking about a real life). Everyone (in real life) tries to make the weapon more powerful. Somehow making the weapon to suck suits Nexuiz much better. And I am asking why? Your all answer is balance - shotgun is a primary weapon. So I say: give starting invincibility and make shotgun as a separate weapon (how it should have been from the start). Now various illogical arguments:

how laser would be bad to ATTACK/DEFEND (providing dueling statistics);
or how all stupid teammates grab all the other weapons and you are left without weapons;
or how is it bad idea because we all like eggandbacon and succersocks;

arose

Firstly, I am not asking to remove the weapon from the game so I don't need the lessons how well it suits Nexuiz. Furthermore, I'm not asking to buff up the weapon either - just to fix the sec fire and make the weapon separate. And why should I care that there is HLAC, camping thing and others? I am talking about shotie, not that HLAC is better and pwns shotie and you should use HLAC because it's better and stop talking about shotie because any other weapon is better so don't use shotie. Or learn to use shotie and use only primary, because we know secondary sucks, but that does not mean anything, we still need to keep this because it should be primary, laser is too weak to attack, don't mention invincibility -> goes to infinity...

IMO !!! we do not need the shotgun secondary (single)shot in an extra weapon because there are already two other guns (namely the cyrlink and the hlac secondary) with basicly the SAME function. Why do you want to have three guns (with the shotgun reduced to only its primary function, even FOUR) with the same basic function?
Its fine to add weapons as long as they are new in terms of function though.

Besides your point that the shotgun secondary mode is weak because it fires a volley is just wrong. Math shows it packs quite a punch. And everyone that had someone spawn in front of him and got killed should be able to confirm this.

Watch my video how volleys compare to one mighty punch (same number of pellets, same damage per pellet). Just because other weapons are made sensible we should leave shotgun to suck just to keep VARIETY. As I said, rockets flying back to your face would also keep variety.

Anyway, if you've read what I've posted before, I gave a suggestion for making it bit different.

Honestly 'a bit different' is not enough (for me..) i do not want a game were half the guns work the same way.. If you want a shotgun-like thing that does tons of damage in one shot, get the hlac and its secondary firemode! There you ALREADY have what you want!

Not to mention that the current shotgun secondary firemode is JUST FINE. Currently its a starting gun and does almost too much damage for that. With math alone the current shotgun secondary mode deals 180 (!) damage. With a perfect hit that can even bring down a freshly spawned player! Its hard to hit perfectly though which is what balances the current gun.

Also please do not forget that if one adds a gun it will NOT magically appear in maps. People will have to place it there.. So even if someone does the MODEL, the CODE and people agree on the settings and how it shall work it would still require mappers to change all maps! The current maps work fine with the two shotgun modes. Primary for more open levels like tdm or ctf and the primary for closeup fights. You risk breaking lots of maps if you change the current starting wepaon(s).

Yeah, another argument - risk. What risk? What maps were designed specifically for "nexuizish" sg? CrowdedSpace.pk3, 1m^3.pk3??? It is impossibly hard to place a shotgun model near the shells.

Firstly, shotgun should be a separate weapon. Another thing, I asked about fixing sg way before HLAC was introduced (i even had a patch). So... maybe HLAC secondary should be changed, huh??? If fixed sg sec is too strong, you can always lower damage whenever you like. Keeping variety while lowering usability is a bad choice. Why not adding flames then? Would be first shotgun acting as flamethrower (don't take it serious please if you were moved by this idea, I don't really want flamethrowing shotie).

To me a second/fixed shotgun is just a bad idea.. the current shotgun IS FINE as a starting weapon and we already have enough shotgun like guns/firemodes. I hope i made that clear by now.

If you want to change the HLAC secondary now.. tell us what you want changed, not just demand changes. Actually you make it seem like you have no idea about the hlac secondary but still demand changes just for pete's sake.

I don't care much about HLAC (yes, because I have no idea). I want fixed shotgun as a separate weapon - not a starting one. Don't fix/change it if you don't like my idea. I don't have access to svn, so I can do nothing except ranting here. Case is clear enough.