Hi,

i would like to ask if its possible that Nexuiz could become a bit more CPMA Movement like in the future, I have to say I miss that a bit. I mean by now Nexuiz has come a long way, the Weapon Models are just great now, also the Maps have become much better than in the older days of the Game.

Now the only thing that i would like to see is better movement. Something thats really nice in Warsow for example. I can really get a lot speed there, without the need of weapons that push me forward. The classic strafing doesn´t help much in Nexuiz.

Please, don´t see this as a complaint, actually its just a suggestion. I really like Nexuiz now and I would just love to see some things to get, in my oppinion, even better.

Great Job on this Game. Congratulations.

Hi Wolfseye,

this is a very old topic and discussed a lot of times. I also prefer the cpma movement, as I am used to it. But if you master the nexuiz movement, you will get very fast without using weapons, too. The more I play, the better I get with it. See it as a competition and when you mastered it completely (I didnt), it will be easier to say if the cpma movement is better.

Maybe they will make it voteable in the future, so we can test it. But I wouldnt bet on it

And I completely agree, this game is great.

You can get very fast in Nexuiz by moving already.

But well, if we knew how CPMA physics work, we'd make it an option. But I've never seen any CPMA physics code, and without that, I can't do it.

Did you ever try WARSOW ? You can get even faster in that Game than in CPMA I think, so they really found an awesome Movement. Unfortunately the rest of the Game is so la la , if you know what I mean.

They must have figured something out. I mean, I don´t know how it is between Developers of Games, or if its different if 2 Developers of Free Games talk to each other about what they´re doing, but is cooporation not always the best thing between people ? Can´t you just simply ask them, and I don´t mean for you to copy the way they made their movement, but to get ideas from it. Or is it simply like with retail games, competetition ?

Wolfseye

When we copy the smallest thing from warsow, we get loudly accused for "RIPPING US OFF" by the whole warsow player base.

So, no.

Ah ok, so that way it is. Well, shame to them then. I mean, if Warsow movement isn´t based on CPMA'ish then I don´t know. Seems Warsow players have no problems with that.

And I wasn´t proposing just to copy what they did, i mean just for ideas but it seems Developers do not really share ideas, right ? Even if its for free Games without any profit.
I mean, look on how many people play Warsow and how many play Nexuiz, i really think we know who has the edge here I would say.

Nexuiz is far better developed than Warsow. The only thing that I think is better in Warsow, is the movement. But I think thats up for debate, since everyone likes something else. And I think its good that Nexuiz has its own movement. It would just be cool for those that prefer other Physics, to switch by choice to those but still play Nexuiz. That would make Nexuiz far more compatible to the needs & different tastes of players.

Again, please don´t get my thread not as offence, I do like Nexuiz really. Just having some ideas that pop of my head atm, must be that I didn´t had any coffee yet. Just woke up an hour ago. *g*

Well, I checked.

Defrag, OSP, and CPMA all have these "promode" physics you were talking about.

However, source code containing the player physics for none of these three is available. Defrag's "source" does not contain their qvm changes, only their engine changes, so physics are not included.

Thats sad, but thanks for checking.

divVerent wrote:When we copy the smallest thing from warsow, we get loudly accused for "RIPPING US OFF" by the whole warsow player base.

I don't think you're being fair with them, divVerent. I've never seen something like that happening, and they wouldn't be bashing you more than they bash me anyway

well, one could circumvent the problem of being "punished" by the warsow community: simply checking out the source code (without talking to devs), and see which parts of the physics are good, do a sample implementation, let players who know CPMA test it, modify it a bit, and then in the release where it's included, just say that a CPMA-like physics feature was implemented, without even talking about that it came from warsow.

OTOH, I am one of the players who loves the physics, and I've been playing the game since...ever. Having different physics as an option certainly is OK, but as they should be done server-side it would basically split the community again into players using servers with CPMA physics (aka Q3 players who can't be arsed to learn Nexuiz' movement) and the other players who like/already did like the normal movement...

GreEn`mArine wrote:Having different physics as an option certainly is OK, but as they should be done server-side it would basically split the community again into players using servers with CPMA physics (aka Q3 players who can't be arsed to learn Nexuiz' movement) and the other players who like/already did like the normal movement...

That red marked line is a little bit unfair I think. It still is different to play Nexuiz or Q3, and someoneone that does prefer Q3 (because of the Movement of CPMA for example) shouldn´t be forced to either stay with Q3 or just learn something else, but given a choice (if possible) to adapt the Game / Server to his wishes. So if there are some Servers that would run CPMA physics, so what ? There are different Mods out for Q3, and seeing Nexuiz now as a full Game, why not have Mods that do just that, give the player something different but still being the same Game.

Noone says that the overall physics of Nexuiz should change, but maybe just give an alternative. The more choice you give people, the more attractive is a Game to people. Those that prefer Q3:CPMA now, would maybe even think about checking out Nexuiz more often, since there they could then also have a choice of using a CPMA kinda physics in Nexuiz and can stick kinda with that movement what they like most.

As Nexuiz is a free Game, I think it would bring more Q3 Fans to Nexuiz.

jal wrote:

divVerent wrote:When we copy the smallest thing from warsow, we get loudly accused for "RIPPING US OFF" by the whole warsow player base.

I don't think you're being fair with them, divVerent. I've never seen something like that happening, and they wouldn't be bashing you more than they bash me anyway

Whenever a Nexuiz version is announced on any website, all the warsow trolls come and post 500 comments about how much Nexuiz sucks and Warsow is better.

Doesn't happen the other way round...

Anyway, for this we'd need to know what CPMA physics exactly IS.

divVerent wrote:

jal wrote:

divVerent wrote:When we copy the smallest thing from warsow, we get loudly accused for "RIPPING US OFF" by the whole warsow player base.

I don't think you're being fair with them, divVerent. I've never seen something like that happening, and they wouldn't be bashing you more than they bash me anyway

Whenever a Nexuiz version is announced on any website, all the warsow trolls come and post 500 comments about how much Nexuiz sucks and Warsow is better.

Doesn't happen the other way round...

Knowing that this Quote wasn´t ment for me, i repeat that anything I posted here about this idea of mine (which I saw isn´t really new *LOL* ) was not to say that Warsow or CPMA is better. Nexuiz is really cool as it is, and if you ask me, in many aspects Nexuiz has become a lot better than other Free Games (subjective oppinion of myself of course).

I just thought adding something similiar with physics would attract even more people to Nexuiz. But you´re right, without knowing how the actual Physics of CPMA for example would be, its pure speculation.

I suppose you won´t take the risk and talk to the Devs of CPMA (Promode) about that ? I mean its from one free Developer to another, its not about Industry secrets. Maybe they can give you a rough overview of how the CPMA Physics is like. I always say that there is no shame in asking, rather than ripping off.

Well take a look at the different physic*.cfg files and try to adapt one to match cpma as close as possible, Nexuiz is quite flexible there.. as DivVerent said without the sources its impossible to 'find out by looking at the sources'...

Like I said, there is no Shame in asking, from one Dev to another. Especially if its not in the Retail Market. Its hard sometimes to overcome one selfs pride and just try to ask someone else. I doubt they would bite or make fun of one because of that.

Just a thought. But hey, i am just suggesting, not more.

CPMA looks pretty dead. No point in asking them now. This should have been done like 3 years ago.

And is it really worth it? Is CPMA movement even different AT ALL from Q3 movement, except for parameters? Take a look at physicsQ3.cfg in Nexuiz. Can it be adapted to match CPMA?

No offence, but from what I see atm (and thats just lunch time currently) there are around 380 active players currently playing CPMA. And in the evening I am sure you can get on maybe twice.

Now lets see, according to Qtracker, currently 139 players are playing Nexuiz. Also lets calculate that for the evening times, you maybe get around 300, I don´t know that for certain. But I would say its still more played. Also considering since when Q3 is out and people still play it, there are not many Games of these times that are still played that much.

Currently, overall at this time, according to Qtracker, there are over 1300 players still playing Q3 & Mods. And I am sure in the evening you can double that or maybe at least make that 2000. I know many so called new & fancy Games that don´t even have half of that, though they are new and so much more shiny and fancy. So I think its still worth asking them. What can you loose ? Nothing.

I don´t know to what degree the .cfg´s in Nexuiz can be adapted, i am not that kinda guy. I am more the player, not the config-master.

But if it wouldn´t hurt you to ask, whats the problem in just doing that ? Hey, you don´t have to do it for me if noone else is interested. I am just trying to tell you that in my oppinion it could attract more people to Nexuiz, especially those coming of the CPMA / OSP etc. scene. Its a try. On the long run i would always try to please as many people as possible, to ensure the stability of a Game / Software.

Nexuiz in my oppinion has already bigger potential on the long run, than many other Free OpenSource Shooter Games. That being sad, it can only get better and better.

Why should _I_ ask if I don't even want the feature?

YOU are the guy who wants it. It is YOUR turn to provide the means to do it. That's how it works.

Sorry for thinking CPMA is dead, I misread the 2009 in the news item as 2008 in that tiny font they use.

especially those coming of the CPMA / OSP etc.

No offense, but we're already stating to fill with assholes... I don't think we need more from the hordes of arrogant 1337 fragmachines.

We were talking about this on irc just now.

Here's how I see it.

I played qw for a few years then took a few years break. Then I tried nexuiz. I felt that the movement was horrible and unresponsive and I gave up after a couple weeks. I mean, I liked it and it was fun but I didn't see how one could play this game seriously because of the movement. Then a couple months later I decided to give a try again, met some cool people and kept playing. Eventually, I got better with Nexuiz movement and I realized that the physics/movement didn't suck, it was me that sucked at it. I've (only) been playing for 1.5 years I think and I still don't feel that comfortable with the physics, but I still make progress every time I play and I find them amazing and complex now. Just like someone who never played a fps game playing cpma for the first time would feel like they can't move well, it takes a long time to learn.

Basically, what I am saying is that I understand how new players coming from other games feel when they try Nexuiz. I did the same thing you did when I started playing, I asked around about making changes to the physics so that they would be more like the game I used to play and there is nothing wrong with that. And at least you did it in a diplomatic way compared to a lot of other players trying out Nexuiz. Obviously, the learning curve would be easier since most fast paced fps games (ie: qw/cpma/wsw) have a similar movement system and I can see how it would make sense that Nexuiz use that system too. But honestly, since I still make progress with movement, that I still find ways to accelerate faster (without using weapons), turn corners tighter, etc. every time I play after more than a year that means nexuiz movement is very complex and hard to master. Hell, everyone seems to progress a lot these days, I remember when I started playing I think there was like 1 or 2 players that I knew of that would let go of +forward when bunnyhopping and now everyone is learning how to move that way and combining it with regular bunnyhopping to not slow down as much as possible. You discover a lot of details about the physics, the right angles, the friction, the speed at which you need to turn you mouse, everything. I find all of this very exciting. Nowadays it feels like I move a lot like I did in qw, the angles and air control are different but it's very similar in a lot of ways.

So I find it kind of sad when someone comes to a server and says "this game is stupid, why is it not like that-other-game" and then leaves. So I appreciate your approach to suggest this. Personally I would like it to have it as an option in Nexuiz. I do not know if I would use cpma physics, but I'm all of more options.

Well, why do people always demand "CPMA physics" like this, but never can explain what it actually IS?

I'd certainly not set it as default, as every small physics change upsets the community a lot, but as an extra .cfg file - why not?

GreEn`mArine wrote:well, one could circumvent the problem of being "punished" by the warsow community: simply checking out the source code (without talking to devs), and see which parts of the physics are good...

Ye, if we do it quickie and sneakie the wsw devs won't notice

It doesn't matter, mate. Nexuiz, and any other, is on its right to take whatever you want from wsw source. And you will never see the wsw team any other but happy about it. divVerent wasn't refering to the team, but to the players.

divVerent wrote:
Whenever a Nexuiz version is announced on any website, all the warsow trolls come and post 500 comments about how much Nexuiz sucks and Warsow is better.

Doesn't happen the other way round...

I'm sorry, but I think I know what cases you are refering to, and I have to disagree. It's true that I've seen sites news about nexuiz where wsw players jump in and comment they think wsw is better, but it was never a case of them having anything against Nexuiz. You can do a search for Nexuiz at wsw forum and I'm sure you won't find any Nexuiz hate in there. In fact, when new versions of Nexuiz are anounced at sites like ESR most of the people "defending" Nex are the Warsow players who frequent the site. There's people like esteel who knows about that.

Also, you shouldn't see the wsw players as being too attatched to Warsow itself (of course there is a good bunch), but to the bunnyhopping+fastweapons kind of game. In a good proportion their loyalty to the game itself is almost unexistant and they will just defend anything with those physics and weapons. If Nexuiz had them they wouldn't care where they came from.

That being said, I'd think it twice before choosing that path. Those guys take over too easily and you'd may end up having a comunity just like Warsow one.

IMO, nifrek's post contains the right answer.

Indeed, it's not the wsw deveopers that do the trolling...

and yes, it's also the kind of people I'd rather not have in Nexuiz. Unfortunately, since the end of last year, the number of these people seems to be rapidly increasing in Nexuiz, while the total player count stays about the same.

Or rather, the unfriendly, harsh, arrogant demanding people are driving away the regulars who just want to enjoy the game.

BTW, for this bunch of players, there is "Nexuiz Havoc", previously called Pro, which is included with Nexuiz. It offers vanilla Q3 player physics, and fast weapon switching, and generally is aimed at the "progamer" crowd. If someone told me what CPMA physics actually ARE, I'd happily implement them in Nexuiz and talk to LordHavoc about setting them as default in Nexuiz Havoc.

I asked the CPMA contact, but I don't think they'll give that info out, given that forum posts there about it were left unanswered, and the FAQ says that source code will not be given out.

jal wrote:

GreEn`mArine wrote:well, one could circumvent the problem of being "punished" by the warsow community: simply checking out the source code (without talking to devs), and see which parts of the physics are good...

Ye, if we do it quickie and sneakie the wsw devs won't notice

It doesn't matter, mate. Nexuiz, and any other, is on its right to take whatever you want from wsw source. And you will never see the wsw team any other but happy about it. divVerent wasn't refering to the team, but to the players.

IMO, nifrek's post contains the right answer.

Well i think Green was joking.. on the other hand, i'm not even sure if the physics part are freely available. I know the WSW devs use a closed repository for the game and i do not think the physics are part of the engine..

And i too think Nifrek is right.. The Nexuiz physics offer a great deal of depth but requires people to relearn it. Is that really a bad thing? The answer is: it depends on the people. A lot of people are unwilling to change their own ways. But live would be very boring if everything would be the same. Having an OPTION for cpma like physics would be ok but not as default. As default for Havoc? Maybe.. thats different from Nexuiz in a lot of aspects already and maybe that will help havoc getting enjoyed more. But again, someone interested in CPMA physics would have to dig out their settings and maybe even parts of the code.

Of course it's feely available. Warsow code is as GPL as any other GPL source you can think of. The sources are always available with every binary distribution. How does one keep his repository between binary distributions has nothing to do with GPL, and we don't keep it closed for any secrecy intention, but just to keep Warsow versions consistent.

I like the fact that nexuiz movement are not a carbon copy (or a few put in a blender) of oer popular game/s. Even if its a option, there is a risk of it taking over just because some ppl are used it and cant be bugged to learn something new if this option is there.

Also, for me and other ppl who never used "Promode" - can anyone explain what it is, how its different and why it would be better (if you are abt say something like 'cuz gameXYZ does it that way' to the last point, don't.)

if just one person could be arsed to create a GOOD tutorial about nexuiz's movement: like ... doing jumps in slowmo, enable cl_showpressedkeys, explain when to let which button go, etc .... put that on the homepage .... would flatten the learning curve for new players, I think.

And about my post above: yes I was joking about doing things secretly. I am aware that the wsw devs are not the problem here, maybe just the wsw players are, no idea. The point was that when Nexuiz's release log would contain just an info like "added optional CPMA-like physics" I don't think that many warsow players would complain, but for this it would have to be made sure that not many wsw players know that code was taken from their base. I mean, it could have been taken from anywhere else, or re-invented.

Warsow seems to have much more than just CPMA-like physics, e.g. it also has an extra "dash" button for movement, and walljumping.

I don't really think the movement will be fun without these extras.

Also, the code for it is quite weird, and doesn't have much in common with Q3A's or Nexuiz's.

I'd better avoid adding that code, and first wait for the reply from the CPMA team...

That code is indeed weird. And each time I make the code have some sense I hit some unexpected side effect and get a load of player whine