I think the best balance would be to make the shotgun just as powerful in its own right as the other weapons, but also have it consume ammo at a comparable rate and only spawn with one pickup's worth of ammo for it. Then your extra incentive to find a new weapon is because you only have so few shots with your starting loadout (unless you're good with the laser).

Yes i was just thinking about this now actually before i read your post

This is the best idea, reduce the starting ammo to something not very high, like you say so the incentive is to go get other weapons, good call

divVerent wrote:Why not simply change Nex damage to 120?

If you change it to 120, my advice would be to change the armor/megahealth to 120 and maybe weaken the starthealth.

divVerent wrote:Also, the Nex is not a starting weapon.

The railgun or rocketlauncher arent starting weapons, too.

Unreal Tournament: start health = 100, redeemer does 1500 damage.
With megahealth, he got 200 health.
1 Hit is needed to frag the other, instead of 1.

I had to

Nexuiz is very unforgiving when you arent able to prevent the shotgun guy from getting next to you (and that will happen in most cases when you miss the first shot or he is using the laser very well). So watching at this, it is clear that a spawn next to you in Nexuiz is a lot more dangerous then in Q3. I also think that it is not only the shotgun which makes the spawning guy that tough, it is the combination of laser/sg/150health with to much ammo.

Ok you wrote this much better then I could explain

And yes it's ridiculously unforgiving, especilly if you have 100health 30 armour for example, people can still rush at you with shotgun and laser without a problem with there 150 health, high ammo count, and crazy laser firing speed

ai wrote:Listen up people, there is one GOLDEN rule you are missing. NEX isn't meant to be a shock rifle, I bet Nex was meant to be more on the lines of a railgun. So WHY nerf it, that's just stupid. Get it to your tiny little brain Alpha.
Anyone complaining about the railgun in Q3 saying to remove it or make it a shock rifle?

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I'm really sick of these topics...
So, let's get back to topic (if you want to talk about nerfing Nex ... again.... start a new topic).
About the health armor thing, which IMO doesn't need changing. But I suppose it wouldn't hurt to try and give the MH 150 or something to see how that goes.

Shock rifle would be even worse, especially if there was combo's

I play UT and I can tell you I time the shock-rifle like I do at times with the nex, and I always go for it, cause it's super strong

Changing Nex damage to 120 won't do much I believe (as long as MH isn't changed that is). People want the "railgun" gone for Nexuiz it seems and that it in my eyes just stupid.
Another thing I do not like is people comparing Nexuiz to all those other games and want it to be similar to them. Why not just have a game that is unique? If it becomes too similar to other games what would make people choose Nexuiz over any other game?
So, a "railgun" can and is allowed to exist in other games but not in Nexuiz? What is up with that? Hypocrites!

Don't take away what comes close to a railgun for Nexuiz just because a few people doesn't want to be stopped trying to cap a flag as fast as possible without thinking of teamwork.

But yeah, I kinda agree with Bundy that a MH could equate a Nex shot, but moving it higher up wouldn't hurt too much either, like 150 (to give it a round number). Plus, with the rotting the 150 wouldn't be too much of a advantage but big enough to withstand for the moment, and with the possibility to stack up on close smaller health packs to prevent it from rotting.

Or what do people want with this balancing?

I really don't think we should touch MH health in a minor release. This is something maybe for 2.6, but should be done together with other large changes.

But why don't you make a server and try it out?

alpha wrote:My final thoughts on various in this topic:

- rl and mortar issue, IMO rl rockets should be faster, because it's just comical how they are now, but rl should have far less push and blast radius. I think we used to have such rl in early 2.5 svn builds (on degreen ctf)... I have no idea why wasnt it approved, it was cool.

Yea, esteel removed it I think, cause he got pissed off with some people complaining or he said that no one was giving feedback, even though most people I know of liked the change very much

Oh and the one thing that really pisses me off, is how often stuff get's exploded in your face in this game, mortar, shotgun, crylink all able to explode rockets which normally insta-kills you when this happens, probably the one thing in nexuiz that annoys me the most (Also when someone fires a rocket and it detonates the one you've fired :@ )

Bundy wrote:I dont know why the megahealth is intended to be the same as 4x25er healthpacks, is it a rule or something?

Megahealth is just a handy method of condensing four close by 25 health packs, it's suppose to share the exact same weightings, so the priority of collecting a megahealth is equal to that of four 25 healths close together.

If a important focus point is not important enough, add some more 25 healths along with a megahealth.

Bundy wrote:Yes, I think the megahealth and also the armor should negate one hit of the highest damaging weapon

Uhhh

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And that is because ................. ?

Sorry, still dont get it

So that it makes taking one of those items worthwhile alpha

At the moment 150 start health = 2 hits dead with nex

150 health + MH = 2 hits dead with nex

Bundy is trying to explain atleast against the nexgun, it doesn't give any advantage to pick up the MH.

His other post of other games, where he explained it should make sense now to you I hope

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Shotgun start ammo 10 or 15 would be nice and make it more balanced I think make people go for a weapon asap, and when run out of shotgun ammo then the laser can be primarily used, need to test this, alpha want to test this with me, and can also test nex as well.

I dont get it why do you want to solve unbalanced weapons with powerups changes. Ok, so mega maybe does not grant another "nex life", but 100 IMO is a good, round number and it makes perfect sense, like it should. The problem isn't there, the problem is in weapons.

The reason why nexuiz cant just copy some other established weapon balancing is because nexuiz can be sometimes really fast, and some weapons must be available for stopping a speeding >1000ips flag carrier. But I also DONT THINK that this 'problem' can be solved with uber-high damaging hitscan camper weapon. There must be other ways. Crylink slowing is a good example.


And yeah, lets test shotgun too.

alpha wrote:I dont get it why do you want to solve unbalanced weapons with powerups changes. Ok, so mega maybe does not grant another "nex life", but 100 IMO is a good, round number and it makes perfect sense, like it should. The problem isn't there, the problem is in weapons.

The reason why nexuiz cant just copy some other established weapon balancing is because nexuiz can really fast, and some weapons must be available for stopping a speeding flag carrier. But I also DONT THINK that this 'problem' can be solved with uber-high damaging hitscan camper weapon. There must be other ways. Crylink slowing is a good example.


And yeah, lets test shotgun too.

I think bundy wants to change the powerups so we don't have to change the weapons balance alpha.

k0jak wrote:I think bundy wants to change the powerups so we don't have to change the weapons balance alpha.

I have seen people leave servers because of nexrain by people like tzork, franco and unknown[nf]. And I very much doubt that greater powerups would somehow make 130dmg nex less annoying.

tZork has a nex aim?

k0jak wrote:tZork has a nex aim?

EDIT: ~40-50% hit rate (brain was short-circuited when i wrote that #'s ) on a good day. so not that great, no.

alpha wrote:I have seen people leave servers because of nexrain by people like tzork, franco and unknown[nf]. And I very much doubt that greater powerups would somehow make 130dmg nex less annoying.

Some ppl prefer playing against a team that don't put up a fight and leave as soon is it gets a bit hard. what else is new? xD

And.. if the mh gave you 500 hp and 500 ar 130 dmg would still be magically to much? funny logic you have there.

I think different armour blockrate would go a good bit towards adding some more tactical importance to this pickup. perhaps pausing downrot longer for large pickups too.

i also think you should not be able to pick up smaller hp/ar beyond some point. say 200+ stops you from grabbing the small ones. 300+ stops medium. that would mean you would have to deny your enemy the pickup in pvp/tdm by fighting over it rather then just swooping around and gobbeling everything up.

k0jak wrote:

I think the best balance would be to make the shotgun just as powerful in its own right as the other weapons, but also have it consume ammo at a comparable rate and only spawn with one pickup's worth of ammo for it. Then your extra incentive to find a new weapon is because you only have so few shots with your starting loadout (unless you're good with the laser).

Yes i was just thinking about this now actually before i read your post

This is the best idea, reduce the starting ammo to something not very high, like you say so the incentive is to go get other weapons, good call

PEOPLE LISTEN TO THEM FINALLY! Make shotgun separate weapon leaving laser solo weapon and implement 3secs spawn protection (yes, this was discussed before 2 or more times already). Shotgun should be as UT flack cannon - best weapon in close range - way better than shock rifle.

Crylink is the worst example possible. If we make all weapons spam, block view and reduce speed, we would rather stick with 2.3 and useless crylink instead.

k0jak wrote:I think bundy wants to change the powerups so we don't have to change the weapons balance alpha.

No, this has nothing to do with weapon balance. I will one day create a thread about this. But why dont fix something small first, if it is needed, before starting such a huge topic.

alpha wrote:And I very much doubt that greater powerups would somehow make 130dmg nex less annoying.

Correct.

It doesnt make the nexgun weaker against any other weapon in general, but it makes the nexgun and of course any other weapon weaker against powerups. You will notice that you are more often able to get next to the nexgun guy, which makes his live harder. You have at least 1,5 seconds more time to kill the nexguy when you got the powerup (thats the nexgun refire time). Of course, in the game the nexgun will still be the most usable weapon. If the nexgun guy got the powerup, he will be tougher to kill, too. Powerups in general will be on the right level to deal with the higher average damage output of the nexuiz weapons. Tweaking the armor and megahealth to much wouldnt be good either, as this could lead to games without any frags. That is the reason I opened this thread and want to see as many oppinions as possible.

There would be another way to accomplish the same goal. It would be possible to reduce the nexgun damage to ~77% (damage 100) and reduce of course every other weapon to 77%, too. This doesnt change anything for the weapons itself. In this scenario the nexgun is still the most powerful weapon, but this would balance the current megahealth and armor also against the weapons. But I am sure that this would be the worst option, because we need enough damage output to deal with the fact that you can get above 100 health with normal 25er healthpacks.

You are not able to take small healthpacks in other games. Because of that, the magical damagenumber of 100 works that great for them, but not in nexuiz.

There is also a small imbalance in the powerups itself. Because of the small healthpackages, the armor is more useful then the megahealth.

divVerent wrote:But why don't you make a server and try it out?

I will test it, but I am not in hurry with that. We got some interesting ideas here and I am looking forward to get some more oppinions and ideas

Someone, somewhere, IRC i think? mentioned capping small health pickups to 200 (but MH would allow you to go over that)

Making caps on health and armor is something I am very against. This is a unique feature for Nexuiz and I don't want it to become like any other games. No matter if it's small healths or big ones, capping is bad!

I am also against making caps to the health/armor, if you can keep your health and armor constantly over 250, it's either the mapper or enemy that is at fault :]

What's the purpose of capping if you want to increase mh worth? Just make it 200 hp then.

Alien wrote:What's the purpose of capping if you want to increase mh worth? Just make it 200 hp then.

Who wrote that? I wanted to increase the mh and armor worth, other mentioned to cap at 200 health taking normal healthpackages as another solution. _No one_ wanted to increase mh worth AND cap normal health at 200hp. Just wanted to mention that, before people join the "war"

k0jak wrote:And then the over-powered shotgun, which works wonders if you have a low-ping, and is pathetic if you have a ping higher then 50 :/ Just watch waldi play, he might as well use the shotgun + laser all game, from playing him and others I find that people can just run at you with the shotgun and do insane damage from a starting weapon, sometimes I don't even see the point of picking up another weapon in nexuiz.

Now I understand why I can't hit anything with the Shotgun, not giving a damn with it. Got a ping of around 130, might be that I use wireless.

I just came with an idea. Is possible that a weapon has different damages for different ranges? The nex could have a damage like 70 for short range, 120 for medium range and 140 for long range. A lower damage in close distances and the slow refire rate of the nex might reduce the use of it in so close ranges.
Though, I'm no expert in weapon balance and coding. It's just an idea that I got.

Wrong topic for that, but it is an idea yes ... I dont give an oppinion about it, because I dont want a discussion about that

President wrote:I just came with an idea. Is possible that a weapon has different damages for different ranges? The nex could have a damage like 70 for short range, 120 for medium range and 140 for long range. A lower damage in close distances and the slow refire rate of the nex might reduce the use of it in so close ranges.
Though, I'm no expert in weapon balance and coding. It's just an idea that I got.

That sounds like a good idea, maybe you should make a new topic

Let's start with reducing this nex damage to 100-110? and testing the MH or something?

I agree.
Lets try on [iO] server (fnutt.net:26500).
It's not best ping for me but for testing purposes we could use it.

ai wrote:Listen up people, there is one GOLDEN rule you are missing. NEX isn't meant to be a shock rifle, I bet Nex was meant to be more on the lines of a railgun. So WHY nerf it, that's just stupid. Get it to your tiny little brain Alpha.
Anyone complaining about the railgun in Q3 saying to remove it or make it a shock rifle?

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I'm really sick of these topics...
So, let's get back to topic (if you want to talk about nerfing Nex ... again.... start a new topic).
About the health armor thing, which IMO doesn't need changing. But I suppose it wouldn't hurt to try and give the MH 150 or something to see how that goes.

Alpha can't have people beating him. If someone is beating him with a weapon that weapon must be nerfed. It needs to be changed in nexuiz rather than on his own server because he is concerned with other people beating him on OTHER servers.

I support the creation of new health item rather than hijacking the existing health100. The stable health powerup at 150 is a cool idea too. I often don't go for the MH because you get it and a second later your heath is back down to 100 . But I guess it isn't placed as if it was a UT MH, so if one wants something that has more stable health, it should be a new powerup so as not to break the dynamics of existing maps I think.

I see what you mean with a new stable powerup, Grasshopper is helping change exisiting 1on1 maps with some of my input to make them more balanced, and reduce the ridiculous amounts of armour on some maps, such an item, could make it onto these maps, but I don't think a 150MH would break maps too much, but then again, I can't say for sure without really playing with it.