Another balance topic. First off, I have made some tests with waldi on the delight server to figure out how the armor and health system work. If you have 100 Armor and 100 Health and get hit by the Nex (130 damage), you have 48 Health left and 22 Armor.

100 Armor + 100 Health = 200
The nex does 130 Damage.
48 Health + 22 Armor = 70
Armor = Health.

Now to the balance problem. Mega and Armor are exactly as in other games, which doesnt fit to nexuiz imo. The weapons do more dmg and we also have a lot more splash(+splash through walls) weapons, which makes it easier to damage the opponents (and teammates ).

You are able to take 25er healthpacks and get more then 100 HP with it. I am fine with that, as it is an unique part in the game. But it reduces the usefulness of the Megahealth a lot. In other games you cannot get significantly higher then 100 health without the megahealth, which makes it that powerful in these games. The usefulness gets also reduced because of the rotting (losing health over time when above 100 health), as you have most of the time more then 100 health before you grab the MH.

**EDIT** Because of the replies, I splitted this thread into 2 Parts:

1.) Balancing the Armor / Megahealth compared to the damage output of the weapons.

-> Is it needed?

My suggestion:
Make the Megahealth 130 Health
Make the Armor 130 Armor
I think that would balance them against the weapons and combos (nex damage = 130 // nex+mortar combo = 165-195 damage).


2.) Improve the MH somehow? (see divs post)

- > If you had the choice between the armor or the MH, most would take the armor. GreEn`mArine pointed me at the map final_rage, to call one rare exception.


Discuss please.

Bundy wrote:(100 armor + 30 health = 130healthboost)

You are suggesting to make armour into a second health gauge, which removes all priority health has over armour.

So what is your suggestion TVR?

I don't even get what you want.

1) do you mean that the mega is supposed to give you 130 health?
2) do you want mega to give 100 health and 30 armor points (ridiculous, health powerups can not give you armor points)

GreEn`mArine wrote:2) do you want mega to give 100 health and 30 armor points (ridiculous, health powerups can not give you armor points)

This. Sorry for explaining it that bad ...

If it is not possible, giving 130 health would be fine, too. I edit firstpost now.

First you want undisputable weapon control with 25 seconds weapon respawn, now you want unkillable health?

Megahealth is so often placed that it can't really count as a powerup any more.

If we made megahealth have more health, we'd seriously break lots of maps...

If anything, we need something like Q2's MH-like powerup which not only gives you +100 health, but also increases your stable health from 100 to 200 for a certain time.

But this as a NEW item, and not as a replacement for health100!

I edited my first post, as this idea with armor+health seems to be to confusing from the feedback I got in the IRC.

So far the best solution was the one from div0, to raise the stable health to 200 for some time, e.g. 30 seconds (well, the time it takes until MH respawns)

But not for the existing megahealth entity, as that'll break lots of maps!

Because megahealth isn't as strong as in other games, mappers placed more of them.

don't think it would break too many maps.

I am sure it would, but maybe one could find a compromise, e.g. +100, but just 150 stable health instead of 200 for 30 seconds.

So far, the health system has worked really good. Why change something that isn't broken? What's the reasoning behind changing it? Because You get an odd number from one Nex shot when you have 100 health and 100 armor? I really don't see any point in changing anything.

Just because the Mega health seems worthless doesn't mean it is. I use it all the time strategically whenever I can and it can save anyone in many situations.

Much better solution is red, green, yellow armor.

Alien wrote:Much better solution is red, green, yellow armor.

Agreed.

Its an interesting idea divverent. I would also welcome to see more ideas or at least reasons why it should not be changed in any way.

So I think we could split the topic into 2 parts (I edited the mainpost again):

1.) Balancing the Armor / Megahealth compared to the damage output of the weapons. -> Is it needed?

2.) Improve the MH somehow or create something new which is not as strong as quad, but more useful then the current MH(see divs post) - > If you had the choice between the armor or the MH, most would take the armor. GreEn`mArine pointed me at the map final_rage, to call one rare exception.

ai wrote:Just because the Mega health seems worthless doesn't mean it is. I use it all the time strategically whenever I can and it can save anyone in many situations.

Of course, I grab it also if I can, it is an 100 healthboost. But compared to the armor it is weak right now.

ai wrote:Because You get an odd number from one Nex shot when you have 100 health and 100 armor? I really don't see any point in changing anything.

You get a odd number after these changes, too It is also an very small change (30HP), which makes itemcontrol more useful. Dont forget that such a small change will also weaken the nexgun (nex/mortar Combo = 195 dmg). The nearer you can get to your enemy, the weaker the nexgun gets.

Also, I have yet another idea.

What about changing JUST the HUD... so it shows how much damage you can take till you're dead, instead of actual health.

Of course, this will make regeneration and rot appear weird. If anything, this will be optional.

I mostly ignore MH in matches. It is not as useful as it should be. 130 HP sounds nice.
I'm pretty sure it wont break any official maps. And I can't think of any unofficial maps ether...

But I don't think armor needs changing. Maps usually has LOTS of armors. Where maps usually only have 1 MH.

130 is a fairly odd value.

If we increase, better jump to 150 immediately.

divVerent wrote:130 is a fairly odd value.

If we increase, better jump to 150 immediately.

150 sounds nice.

Okay, just added a new HUD mode: sbar_hudselector 2.

It shows no health/armor counters, but a single counter, showing the total damage you're able to survive.

Sure, rot and regeneration look weird with that it's mainly to help people who don't understand the current health/armor system.

Current system is pretty obvious even for nobrainers. Implemeting different types of armor doesn't mean all current maps should be changed with new armor types. Green armor could be left as lowest quality one and yellow, red could be made as addons for new maps.

We already have 4 types of armors. Who cares about colors.

divVerent wrote:Okay, just added a new HUD mode: sbar_hudselector 2.

It shows no health/armor counters, but a single counter, showing the total damage you're able to survive.

Sure, rot and regeneration look weird with that it's mainly to help people who don't understand the current health/armor system.

Just an idea for the long term (like 2.6 maybe), what if armor simply had 100% damage absorbtion and maybe stabilized at 50? So you'd have to lose all of your armor before you started to lose health. That'd certainly be transparent at least.

Transparent yes, but then what's the difference between health and armor if armor is a full health replacement?

morfar wrote:We already have 4 types of armors. Who cares about colors.

E.g. 100 in red would be equivalent to 200 in green and wouldn't rot.

divVerent wrote:Transparent yes, but then what's the difference between health and armor if armor is a full health replacement?

The differences would be health regenerates and stabilizes at 100, while armor does not regenerate and would stabilize at 50.

So health packs would be about fast recoveries and temporary survivability boosts and armor packs would be about increasing your survivability in the longer run, especially against a direct hit from the Nex or RL.

ai wrote:So far, the health system has worked really good. Why change something that isn't broken?

200% agree!

Bundy wrote:So what is your suggestion TVR?

If the weapons are overpowered, then normalize the weapons around the excellent value of one hundred, which happens to coincide perfectly with percentage and most fractions.

TVR wrote:If the weapons are overpowered, then normalize the weapons around the excellent value of one hundred, which happens to coincide perfectly with percentage and most fractions.

I think reducing the damage of the weapons, would cause a problem with the 25 health packs, as you can take as many as you want. It makes sense that the damage output is higher then in other games, because of this unique system. But powerups like armor and megahealth need a small boost here, to make em "powerups". As I mentioned, it is more an issue with the megahealth then the armor (even I think it wouldnt be wrong to improve it, too).

I also like to mention, that there might be no problem in CTF games, as you can easily grab Armor/health in your base at CTF. In TDM/1v1 games you mainly fight for the better positions, powerups and weapons. The reward for getting the armor or mh is not as big as it has to be, compared to the damage the weapons do IMO.