LordHavoc had an interesting idea to change and improve the rocket launcher:

let rockets be guided while the button is pressed, and once you let go of the button, they fly in a straight line.

I implemented that, but have some worries about it:

Rockets may be too strong then.

Guidance is currently limited to 90 degrees turning angle per second, but even that may be too much. Also, it uses no laser dot, but tries to find the general direction of your crosshair (so you can't let the rocket "turn back" easily).

To compensate for too strong rockets, I reduced max rocket damage from 120 to 100, and grenade launcher edge damage from 35 to 25 (to make RL:GL less weird). Still, balance may be off.

So play on my servers (the "Over the lazy dog" ones) to make weapon stats, so we can see if this tuning works. This is the only way we have to make weapon balance statistics.

I turned off jetpack and hook for this rebalancing stats collection.

I took back the grenade launcher change as this made mortar jumps useless compared to laser jumps. Home balance won't be too much off then.

I like that concept.

Will this be a mutator in the next release?

If it goes after LordHavoc, it'll be the default.

While you're at it, maybe you should try a Nex with damage reduced to 100 as well.

Definitely agree with taking back the GL's bust, that weapon should not be any weaker than it currently is.

RL is interesting this way- less powerful in close, a little more powerful at medium-long range.

After some play-testing, rockets continue to be laser guided after death.

It's also quite difficult to combine guidance with remote detonation, therefore exponential acceleration would be very useful as rocket size would decrease linearly with time [therefore matching the target size], as well as preventing endless loops.

Flying Steel wrote:While you're at it, maybe you should try a Nex with damage reduced to 100 as well.

Definitely agree with taking back the GL's bust, that weapon should not be any weaker than it currently is.

RL is interesting this way- less powerful in close, a little more powerful at medium-long range.

nex damage is at 110 at the moment as far as I know that's a change that's been made, why the need to make it lower straight away?

Why the reason for the RL change, I just don't get it..when is nexuiz going to get stable weapons?

I am against making weapons too complex by default. This would include this change.

I will try it out next week.

k0jak wrote:Why the reason for the RL change, I just don't get it..when is nexuiz going to get stable weapons?

Because it is being developed, and because some new weapons got into the game under high disapproval by LordHavoc (especially the TAG Seeker).

And no, weapons will never be stable. This is an open source project. We don't simply stand still, but try new things.

The idea was, as said before, by LordHavoc, who'd also like to remove the TAG Seeker or replace it by something entirely different, because the whole idea of (self-)homing missiles should go. I'd also like this movement, but have no idea WHAT the seeker should become then (as I am against just removing the weapon, as maps with weapon_seeker entities would have nothing to provide at these weapon spawns).

Why not add it into the Havoc game-mode? Everytime something gets changed (nex damage), something else get's changed for no apparent reasoning to vanilla nexuiz.

Oh comon, why remove the tag seeker? It's a nice weapon and works well, if someone doesn't want to put it in their map they don't have to, they also can swap it out easily with the weapon swap commands!

Why can't the option continue to _exist_ that a mapper put this weapon there. The option to swap it out exists if a server admin doesn't like it.

Why must nexuiz be some marble statue that must be "perfected" in someone's mind's eye and then leave those who would rather some of the "imperfection" they took into account when they designed their map high and dry?

It's not like there are a very scarce 9 weapons slots anymore.

Tag seeker is hard to target, the missles are fairly slow, and can be dodged if you duck behind proper cover.

It's a nice "heavy weapon" and it's a change from all the other weapons. There is a nice variety.

And now it will be nerfed.
There's always a war over something.

Let's remove turret's from the game too (they are self guided weapons).
I bet that will happen.

(Even though noone's forced to use them either)

Also note: I rarely use nexuiz normal damage settings anymore: the weapons do nearly no damage: all are mostly useless now.

k0jak wrote:Why not add it into the Havoc game-mode? Everytime something gets changed (nex damage), something else get's changed for no apparent reasoning to vanilla nexuiz.

You'll never be a state senator with that mindset (Answer: politics).

Well, I certainly will only remove the Seeker if it's going to be replaced by something cooler. Seeker is there for coolness, for nothing else.

And no, I do not want this change just in the Havoc mode. I hate the Havoc mode (it's awfully slow), but want to play Nexuiz with this change. As simple as that.

However, there is still the option of this change NOT going into vanilla Nexuiz at all. But don't always judge it before even having tried it.

And, this is totally unrelated to the Nex damage change. This topic is not even about the Nex damage change.

If the Zany mod autofire function is removed, the primary fire could be changed to a UT-style lock-n-load rocket launcher.

divVerent wrote:The idea was, as said before, by LordHavoc, who'd also like to remove the TAG Seeker or replace it by something entirely different, because the whole idea of (self-)homing missiles should go. I'd also like this movement, but have no idea WHAT the seeker should become then . . .

Well, I certainly will only remove the Seeker if it's going to be replaced by something cooler. Seeker is there for coolness, for nothing else.

I can't understand why homing weapons would be considered evil (or if they were, how they got into the game in the first place)? Because the way they are implemented you still have to aim them precisely (there isn't anything like the Halo Needler), their slower travel speed gives the target alot of options and they can be shot down with weapons fire.

All that should to be done is to make the last point stonger, by making the missiles the TAG and RL shoot have bigger collision boxes so that they can be shot down a little more easily by a greater variety of weapons, when combined with a good aim.

Already, the Camper Rifle makes an excellent counter measure to the TAG Seeker, shooting down its missiles with precision, assuming a fight at medium to long range. The main issue is that besides the CR, the only reliable way to shoot down seekers is to use the seeker launcher itself; the only way to shoot down rockets is with the launcher itself.

So in short, surviving nonhoming weapons should be more about your dodging skills, surviving homing weapons should be more about your aiming skills, and both have a good place in this game.

And, this is totally unrelated to the Nex damage change. This topic is not even about the Nex damage change.

I wasn't sure there was a Nex damage change, since although it certainly felt that way playing on your server, playing 2.5 it also felt like missiles were traveling much slower, which was wrong.

Anyway my thinking was that the Nex and RL damage per shot should be kept the same or about that, so that this reduction in RL damage you mentioned ealier should be matched with a reduction in Nex firepower. I understand that has already been done now though, so good.

Flying Steel wrote:I can't understand why homing weapons would be considered evil (or if they were, how they got into the game in the first place)?

Because LordHavoc was not informed when it got added. As simple as that. Nobody else thought of the counterarguments, even though they surfaced while balancing its damage values.

LH's opinons should not weigh heavier than the majority of the community.

I think some gameplay change needs a forum poll.
Like the new Strength/Shield timing thing. And this RL change (not that I think it will break nexuiz that much). And Nex dmg (not that I think it will break nexuiz that much).

No, as that just causes trolling and useless quarrel, and no results.

We've seen it before.

If we'd make a poll for everything, we'd come out with an unplayable game as the trolls and manipulators are the ones who have most weight in the polls, but not the ones who actually want the good of the community. Also, making a poll BEFORE does not get any useful results, as people's opinion change quite much once they can actually try it out.

Also, there WAS a poll for the timing thing. Which derailed.

Also, LH is the only one in the team who actually is able to judge game design professionally. See his involvement with a current commercial game I won't name here.

This setting is tried out, and we'll see if it stays or not, depending on weapon stats and general opinion here. It is far from final. This does not have to be decided by a poll, but by whether balancing the weapons is still possible (which this testing is for), and the opinion of TRUSTED people of the community (not notorious complainers and not people who are just hypnotists manipulating people).

And your opinion is certainly noted about it, just like the one of some others in this thread.

I think that in this regard a faster release cycle will help (1-2 month until next release). You can implement ideas you have and the community is forced to try it out until the next release. People will or will not complain about the change after they tried it out, and also after they had to accomodate (and if they still hate it then and tell you that in the forum it'd be time to listen to them).

This guidance system is nice. It makes the RL a useful weapon.
(Remote detonation still works also ). Damage at 120 I think would be good, at 100 it doesnt' seem to kill enough. For a skilled player the guidance system will be a nice additon, for the unskilled... well they'll want you to make the RL do 2 pts dmg.

This really makes the RL stand apart from the electro now, They are both powerful but now the RL isn't just a "electro primary, but slower". or a "costlier grenade launcher". It has some smarts if the player has any.

divVerent wrote:

Flying Steel wrote:I can't understand why homing weapons would be considered evil (or if they were, how they got into the game in the first place)?

Because LordHavoc was not informed when it got added. As simple as that. Nobody else thought of the counterarguments, even though they surfaced while balancing its damage values.

What were those counterarguments by the way? (I presume they also pertain to the new homing RL setting and thus are not off topic).

The tag seeker is not a homing weapon: first you have to hit your target manually with the slow moving beacon, then (if the target is stupid enough not to doge or find cover) it shoots 4 damagy things that MAY hit them (also if the target doesn't shot gun the projectiles out of the air). Think of it as a nex that takes 5 seconds to complete it's shot and has no gaurentee of any damage even if you hit the target with it.

You have to hit the target first. That takes skill. Alot of it.

I don't understand how trolls can mess up a poll. Do they get more votes or something? In that case, where can I sign up to be a troll? Sure they can derail the discussion that follows the poll and they will. But I still think the majority of the people here will still vote for what THEY think is right.

They write in "I know the game longer than everyone here, I must know it best, if your opinion is different you just haven't realized the truth yet" style, which works quite well at manipulating the votes of people who haven't made up their own opinion yet.

What were those counterarguments by the way? (I presume they also pertain to the new homing RL setting and thus are not off topic).

Not really. It was about automatic target seeking, like the seeker does, not player controlled guiding.

I don't have the IRC logs any more, so sorry, but it was about this removing an element of skill.

i don't think a faster cycle is a good idea. who needs a homing weapon anyways? just point and click.

I was a huge fan of the original, rather extreme version of it - with the laser dot and extreme rocket agility. Yes, it wasn't just "too strong", it was uncanny. After a while it sometimes seemed as if I was just shooting rockets and twitching without thinking, which resulted in in hitting everything, everywhere. I'm pretty sure controlling the rockets with a first person cam could not have made them deadlier, it was THAT great. It was something you'd play classical music to, something you'd repeat in bullet time...

I think it'd be wonderful to have a toned down version that doesn't totally dominate the game, please don't think I'm complaining, but I MISS the acrobatics, too... so I propose a mutator with the old code, something like "Extreme Rocket Super Juggle Arena!" - ?

It could be the crazy, ugly big brother of instagib... no other weapons, no hook, unlimited rockets... left-click: fire, right-click: something laserjumpish (not detonating of rockets in mid-air, because that actually takes away from the "dance" IMHO)

Well, the old laserguided missiles code is still there.

Wanted to test, came to server, no one there. Will bring clan.

Tested for a bit with clanmate.

110 dmg nex = fine
guided RL = fine, looks very awesome, maybe reduce damage a bit because really hard to dodge