Can't you both shut up?

r_showsurfaces was never a cheat, the same as gl_picmip or any other command line option.

tundramagi wrote:

alpha wrote:

divVerent wrote:As for wallhack: as if we would tell you publicly.

So says dear Fuhrer! He and his clan can use secret nexuiz hacks (colorprint, now wallhack, what else?). You can't! Obey or else!

Lol, last week you were the God of Nexuiz. You decided if something was "wanted" or "not wanted". Now you peddle yourself as an opressed serf. Look how quickly your "demenor" has changed, lol.

Sarcasm. Look it up in a dictionary.

Alien wrote:Can't you both shut up?

r_showsurfaces was never a cheat, the same as gl_picmip or any other command line option.

See the link from my previous message.

Also, I never said r_showsurfaces was a cheat. I asked if it had to be considered as one or not. All I'm saying is that it can give one an advantage (although I'd personally consider it as a handicap if I used it)



*ponders why alpha and tundramagi aren't ignoring eachother yet*

i looked up sarcasm in the dictionary, it said: Alpha is not a twat.

i just say no, why do dev worry abot things that already work??? instead of caring about things that don't?? Ownage is right about this point -.-....

Then tell me what does not work.

Fact is, timers ARE being used, and this IS a big issue. It's no skill to put a digital clock next to your PC. Plus, this change improves gameplay by putting an action focus at the powerup spawns due to the announcement of the respawn of the powerup.

Plus, this change improves gameplay by putting an action focus at the powerup spawns due to the announcement of the respawn of the powerup.

You don't even play the game. How can you possibly know that?
And it so much spoils the gameplay.

Hell let's make a freaking casino out of nexuiz. Let armor, health and weapons spawn at random time and random location. You enter your bet and either win or lose.... freaking interesting, yeah...

When timers (the defer command) were introduced to Nexuiz, I (and many others) were very concerned. We felt like this was a built-in cheat, because part of the game really requires learning to time things, as it should. The game needs some challenge, and timing things is part of that challenge.

However, the defer command is incredibly useful in many other ways. We're using it in our 3v3CTF league matches for the referee to auto-change which player he/she spectates every 30 seconds. So taking out the defer command is not a good idea.

The reality now is that using a timer is not that much of an advantage when you get to the advanced gameplay. Most advanced players are pretty used to timing things. I would actually think that people who do use timers would eventually decide not to use them because they would eventually get used to timing things mentally. When you are able to time things mentally, then you are able to think about and plan your movement around the map to coincide with spawning entities. If you used a timer, that would be more difficult.

I like the idea of a random starting point for powerup spawns. I don't like spawns being random throughout the game. If they have to be random (by consensus), then they should different only by small increments (like 5 seconds).

So why not go further and just put full-blown numerical timers over every pickup spawn point so that everyone is on the same ground? (Not Sarcasm)

If anything, it seems like it would add more strategy to the game.

Flying Steel wrote:So why not go further and just put full-blown numerical timers over every pickup spawn point so that everyone is on the same ground? (Not Sarcasm)

If anything, it seems like it would add more strategy to the game.

I agree and approve of this idea.

Waterlaz wrote:

Plus, this change improves gameplay by putting an action focus at the powerup spawns due to the announcement of the respawn of the powerup.

You don't even play the game. How can you possibly know that?

Um, I'm fairly certain, that is with a 100% confidence that div0 do play the game. Why do you think he doesn't and, why would you even think that he doesn't? Has he or anyone else told you that or are you assuming?

To you other people. The normal pickups are not a problem, powerful items like the strength are. That's why randomizing normal pickups won't happen. Stop being childish people and stop complain about something that is a bit different than what you are used to. Give it a chance before rushing in and screaming. I don't see you guys playing many ladder matches either so what point do you have anyway?

ai wrote:Um, I'm fairly certain, that is with a 100% confidence that div0 do play the game.

I have positively never seen divverent on any server I regularly play with, CTF, DM, or otherwise. He's from euro like me so I guess if he played we'll be meeting at least sometimes.

The only place I ever see him is on his lazy dog ctf server, dancing with bots, and frankly I don't consider that playing.

What you consider is 'playing' is irrelevant. Fact is, div0 is playing the game, which was the issue here and which also is the bottom line.

ai wrote:div0 is playing the game

Alone. With bots. On own server.
)

DivVerent is in his free time, and he is enjoying it, so he is playing.


I would like to play some matches with that timer above powerup spawns. It sounds pretty fun, and timing things wouldn't be an issue anymore. (I don't time except for "feel" of when stuff should spawn)

Timers above items. Why? What? Isn't it simpler just add the time remaining until strength/shield respawn into the hud? Then even new players will know that this is something to look for. And then you can make it non-fixed if your wish is to destoy the routes.

Alien wrote:Timers above items. Why? What? Isn't it simpler just add the time remaining until strength/shield respawn into the hud? Then even new players will know that this is something to look for. And then you can make it non-fixed if your wish is to destoy the routes.

I would rather have everything or nothing, personally. And between those two, I find nothing (no timer gizmos) slightly preferable.

I don't like quads, there's no honor or glory in them, I only pick them up if it is extremely convenient. Weapons and Health/Armor are what I really care about, but even with them, if they aren't there when I get there, I'll just move on to the next destination.

But folks seem to feel strongly about this feature, so that's why I would suggest adding it to all spawns. That way, if I come to the MG, and the timer at its spawnpoint says 3 seconds, I'll dig in. If it says 20 seconds, then I'm gone.

Alpha, are you nuts?
You never EVER have anything positive to say about this game of the work that people put into it, then you spent all your time and effort trying to piss of the most productive and dedicated developer, and anybody else you can.
Do you actually hate nexuiz and want it to die? or just not give a shit?
What do you care about?
With this attitude that you bring you achieve nothing for your aims, wtf they are.
So why bother?
btw did your clan throw you out?

alpha wrote:I have positively never seen divverent on any server I regularly play with, CTF, DM, or otherwise.

I'm hoping div0 will not read that, or at least do the smart thing and not react to it. I would like to say though that MAYBE that is because HE spends most of his free time working on improving this already fantastic game, whereas YOU are dividing up your time between pwnzorlolling on said servers and posting WANT DO NOT WANT on this forum? Which you may even think will look cool, but to all the grownups here it makes you look like a twat.

You are talking in a degrading way about his latest offering, the music playing bots. It may sound like a silly thing to occupy yourself with, but he IS using that thing he finds enjoyable and funny to ALSO improve loads of stuff in the game itself and provide features that will later be used in maps that you will WANT because said improvements are awesome.

Flying Steel wrote:So why not go further and just put full-blown numerical timers over every pickup spawn point so that everyone is on the same ground? (Not Sarcasm)

If anything, it seems like it would add more strategy to the game.

Very nice idea. It's like in teaching mode in this way. It could help players that don't know what time an item means, or that aren't so good to do it well. Clearly this play mode should be a choice of the players (through votation), so that skilled players can still play without any help by the game.

I think most of the players will like it.

for this I'd suggest sprites above the items. And would also be cool if you are spectator to see it

PinkRobot wrote:

alpha wrote:I have positively never seen divverent on any server I regularly play with, CTF, DM, or otherwise.

I'm hoping div0 will not read that, or at least do the smart thing and not react to it. I would like to say though that MAYBE that is because HE spends most of his free time working on improving this already fantastic game, whereas YOU are dividing up your time between pwnzorlolling on said servers and posting WANT DO NOT WANT on this forum? Which you may even think will look cool, but to all the grownups here it makes you look like a twat.

You are talking in a degrading way about his latest offering, the music playing bots. It may sound like a silly thing to occupy yourself with, but he IS using that thing he finds enjoyable and funny to ALSO improve loads of stuff in the game itself and provide features that will later be used in maps that you will WANT because said improvements are awesome.

Proper analysis of changes requires sufficient amount of testing. What I see now are changes being introdues without proper testing, i.e. in my opinion, Dear Fuhrer has only theoretical knoweledge about what he is about to change. Prove me otherwise.

I think it is very difficult to say who has the clue and who has not. Arguments of the players' side is that they think that due to them playing the game (competitively) allows them to judge whether additions to the game are good or not. But can we (putting persons like you alpha, waterlaz and also myself together to "we" who play the game competitively and quite certainly voted for fixed spawn times) really know that for sure? "We" base our opinions on what the opinions of other communities (game makers of quake version X and other FPS games) already were, taking over their system without questioning it (well, of course we know the benefits of fixed spawns, that it takes the skill to time it and what not, but given the fact that the timer scripts take that 100% away its not really that much of a skill anymore, so we are sort of telling lies to ourselves).

So it might be not a bad thing when developers who don't play competitively (which div0 doesn't, he does play the game (in general, playing on FFA servers), but not competitively) change the game based on other assumptions and trying to make the game better for the general audience, which is NOT playing the game competitively (the competitive players are the minority actually).

Also, in case morfar keeps his promise up to have shorter release cycles, more feedback can be collected when such a change gets official for 1-2 months and can the default-value can be reconsidered for the version after the release.

Also, in case the competitively community hates this very much, I could still arrange this setting to be changed for ladder servers. The premise of changed settings on ladder servers is that such changes are changes that don't manipulate the game(play) in a way that normal players would be driven away from playing it (which would be the case for other settings, e.g. disabling damage through floor, changed weapon damage, etc.) - and I don't think that changing this setting would drive someone away from becoming (or staying) a competitively player.

EDIT: also note that the "needs sufficient amount of testing" thing is impossible, as the ones who play on SVN servers usually don't care that much to do a proper report about this. So putting new experimental stuff into new releases might be the only thing left.

alpha wrote:Dear Fuhrer has only theoretical knoweledge about what he is about to change. Prove me otherwise.

You did it yourself.
Your opinion is obviously skewed: you're not providing an objective critical point of view, so there's no way your points could be taken seriously.

Also, as far as I know, you're not omniscient. What you have seen does not include what other people would. I have myself seen div playing (as in, being part of a team in the process of winning a game). As far as I know, he doesn't play much 1on1 or ladder-like games. I don't either, does it mean my opinion doesn't count? I'm not sure. I've been playing since 2.3 and I believe I know what would/wouldn't annoy me in a competitive game. I can have a rough idea of the consequences of a change.

Now, if you paid some attention to the previous developments, you would have noticed that some changes have been introduced without consulting the whole community, and were debated afterwards, and sometimes reverted. Don't you think the best way to know how something will work practically is to actually test the change? And from that point, what more than a theoretical point of view do you need from the developers, since all the practical aspects will be explored in time without going through the pain of flamewars...

I'd say, let this change be, and let's see what we can do with it.

Don't you think the best way to know how something will work practically is to actually test the change? And from that point, what more than a theoretical point of view do you need from the developers, since all the practical aspects will be explored in time without going through the pain of flamewars...

Well... the change is in svn. We are testing it. And I hope the change will be reverted =)

Waterlaz wrote:I hope the change will be reverted =)

I hope for this too. We don't need any changes in this area.

Note that the opinion of people who ALWAYS complain about everything and never say a GOOD word does not count at all.

To judge an opinion, you have to put it in relation to the average opinion on things that person has.

If someone hates everything, it does not mean everything has to be changed, but rather that that guy should be playing another game. His opinions have to be seen as "neutral towards everything", as he's got an average opinion score of -5 and an opinion about things in question of -5 too, making a relative opinion of 0 towards the things in question.

If he says "I don't care about flags being pink and green", then this means he has an average opinion score of -5 about everything and -1 about flags being pink and green, so by relativizing, that person has a +4 opinion of making flags pink and green.

On the other hand, if someone likes everything and never complains, if he has a suggestion, it also doesn't have much weight as he'll be just as happy when not taking over the suggestion. It's then just an idea that does not change the overall opinion of the game

The best input comes from people who both criticize and support. But there's not many of these in this community.


As for the issue at hand, this means:
alpha's input is as it is always, so it's a 0.
from C.brutail it's a 0
from waterlaz it's a -1
from sepelio it's a +1
from tweak it's a -1
from komier it's more like a +1 with an extra suggestion that could make this whole point a non-issue (and actually, maybe it's a good suggestion)
from flying steel it's a 0

Makes a 0 total.

Now my input is "this gets rid of a cheat", thus +1.

So, before, if you had a mental or scripted timer you could organize in advance (say 10-20 seconds) and launch an assault for quad.

But now, with 3-5 sec notification it's basically about who's closer to quad point.

Skill in this? Give me a break.

The whole point is that there is NO skill in making timer scripts, or putting a clock next to your screen, or use the ingame clock, or whatever. If quad spawn is 120 seconds and the sound comes, all you have to do is remember the ingame time, subtract 2 from the minutes when you have time, and wait till the resulting time appears. Or are you telling me you consider it a skill that you can subtract 2 from a number of two digits? Give me a break, every child can do that.

Or, look at a clock you put next to the PC. When you hear the quad sound, remember where the big hand is. If the big hand is at the same point again, and again, the quad respawns. Every child can do that too.

Neither is there a skill in copypasting timer scripts others made.

The only time when timing the quad is a skill is when you do it in your head. And even then - it's a sign of stupidity if you do that, as there are easier methods (e.g. using a clock next to your PC).

And I simply decided that the point of the game is NOT being able to do things every child can do and then boasting about your 31337 5k1llz.

My question is, what makes it so difficult to stop at step 1 and add some preventive measures that allow feature X to be used only when some cvar is set (sv_cheats, developer, if_i_set_this_i_am_a_cheater)? Is it because step 5 is just too much fun or what.

Well, now it would be too late because the engine already supports defer. However, as said before, defer is not the only way to do item timing the cheating way.

I like the idea of a random starting point for powerup spawns. I don't like spawns being random throughout the game. If they have to be random (by consensus), then they should different only by small increments (like 5 seconds).

That's exactly what happens - quad spawn time is randomized by 5 seconds. It's always in the range of 115 to 125 seconds. And that interval can be made even smaller if needed, like, perhaps 117.5 to 122.5.

You know divverent, if what you said about my input and opinions was even half true, i'll probably give a damn. But seeing how this is basically load of biased crap against me, well, whatever, it's your forum.

Show me a link to ONE positive meaningful gameplay related post by you on this forum.

divVerent wrote:Show me a link to ONE positive meaningful gameplay related post by you on this forum.

http://forums.alientrap.local/viewtopic.php?p=56890#56890
http://forums.alientrap.local/viewtopic.php?p=63490#63490
http://forums.alientrap.local/viewtopic.php?p=62669#62669
http://forums.alientrap.local/viewtopic.php?p=61652#61652
http://forums.alientrap.local/viewtopic.php?p=60575#60575
http://forums.alientrap.local/viewtopic.php?p=60427#60427
http://forums.alientrap.local/viewtopic.php?p=60110#60110
http://forums.alientrap.local/viewtopic.php?p=59635#59635
http://forums.alientrap.local/viewtopic.php?p=59208#59208
http://forums.alientrap.local/viewtopic.php?p=59203#59203

Now, would you, please, cut off tundramagi-style bigotry towards me and let's have a civilized discussion ?