Hello I'm new here and I have already something to share :)
I play Nexuiz for a while and I have noticed that there is a major problem with the game.
Some images to illustrate what I mean:
1 - default config:

2 - updated settings:

3 - cvars (r_showsurfaces 3; r_sky 0 and sometimes r_drawfog 0)

4 - two other cvars easy to find out

First, I have nothing against a couple of cheater and I don't like spyware (punkbuster for example), but if nearly the half of all nexuiz players are playing with settings like in image 3 and 4, something is wrong. Usually I play minsta and it is huge advantage if you use configuration 3(/damn small nexuiz) or 4. I don't know why the cvars in image 3 aren't considered as cheating… for me it's relatively clear. The difference between 2 and 3 is much greater than between 3 and 4.
I think that isn't good for a new player to play against a stronger opponent, who is camouflaged (model&color) and on the other hand use cvars to boost the performance. I think that he will just uninstall Nexuiz rather than take this challenge.
As far as I know, a very large number of people use it. And that not because they play with an eeepc or something similar ;)
The actual situation forces people to play the game in an amputated version to keep up with the others. It's harmful for the atmosphere in the game.
Maybe it's the spirit of the minsta mod to do everything to be a way better. Howerver, something had to be done, because the situation tends to get worse.

I know it's easy to complain, but I think that's one of the most urgent problems. I like Nexuiz, but not in the small version :)


ps: sorry for my English

I don't know why people turn off the skys: in many maps they are the most beautiful part of the game.

A key principle of Nexuiz is the complete separation of visuals and gameplay, ie the game is not balanced based on player visibility.

Framerate is more important then whether you can camouflage.

Some things can be used as exploits as an extent though. I think he has show_tris 1 on one of the screenshots and it allows you to basically see through fog even if the fog isnt turned off.

Fog is only a cosmetic cover-up for the actual vis cull, r_showtris on a fogged map is a good assessment of the mapper's skill.

TVR wrote:A key principle of Nexuiz is the complete separation of visuals and gameplay, ie the game is not balanced based on player visibility.

Framerate is more important then whether you can camouflage.

Why are cvars, which improve considerably the visibility, not considered as cheat or exploit?
I really don't understand that. At present there is a built-in colorhack and a wallhack, but that doesn't seem to bother anyone.
The main contact with the game is what you see on the screen. In other words, the best game mechanics are worth nothing if the output is a black screen.
There are not robots, which play this game. It makes a difference what you see and what not. With r_showsurfaces 3, r_sky 0 and r_drawfog 0 you are better able to set priorities and you are also the first who is ready to shoot.
Try it out with instagib, you will feel the difference. It's a cheat and you don't need to download a rootkit or to make your own engine for it.
How can you make fair matches and tournaments under these circumstances?
And what is the point to make richly detailed maps if everything should be disabled when you want to play with same opportunities as your opponent?

It depends on what has the higher priority I think

dana wrote:... Why are cvars, which improve considerably the visibility, not considered as cheat or exploit? ...

It's impossible to restrict such CVars in a FOSS game, additionally Nexuiz is played & developed on millions of different hardware configurations, where such CVars are useful.

So game balance is not based on visibility.

dana wrote:[...] something had to be done, because the situation tends to get worse.

How did you notice it gets "worse"? What exactly gets worse?

As You may have thought, something so obvious would have been addressed, if it really was a problem. Accessibility and availability of the game is a greater concern, which is why DSN was made. It gives a performance improvement and better visibility, but it looks ugly. If somebody chooses to use the ugly version to win, then (s)he's the one that misses out on the graphics experience. It's your decision to either use the version with better graphics or the one with better performance.

Some people with bad eyesight would also like to play. (preferrably without wearing glasses)

The thing tends to get worse, because you will be rapidly confronted with it at present.

The prize for compatibility with every configuration is to have only players, who are willing to take every advantage and to play the game in the ugly version to win, if it is not already the case. It will scare new players away and it does not allow a relaxed atmosphere. I think that this will result in lesser number of players over time, because it's not easy to build up something around the game against this background.
Just take a look at how it works on some minsta dm server and you will understand.

If equality of opportunity is not a concern, then the game is not built for online gaming.

Such things simply CANNOT be restricted in an open source game. If someone were to remove the code, so what? Someone else could add it back easily, or even add something worse.

For serious competition matches, there are means to check for such variables to be active, but a cheater can easily circumvent the checks as he has access to the source code. So all that really can be done is minimizing the informations sent to the clients. And this is already being done.

I cannot share your oppinion on that topic. You can customize the settings in any good 3dshooter and because of that I doubt that this will ever decrease the playerbase. I am 100% sure that removing these options would be a reason for many players to leave. I want to see my opponents as good as possible and I also need it to run the game smooth with stable FPS on most maps. Without these options Nexuiz would be unplayable for me and many others.

I don't see much of a problem, I play the regular version of Nexuiz with almost everything maxed (save for HDR and gib time) and notice it's more understanding weapons and reacting faster. The ONLY three exploits I see that would cause problems are if somebody were to use a wall hack (which wouldn't work that well do to the speed of the game), an aimbot (which would also not be super effective most of the time due to weapon ballistics), or a speed hack/strafe bot (in which case it would be so damned noticeable that the player would be kicked).

dana wrote:The thing tends to get worse, because you will be rapidly confronted with it at present.

The prize for compatibility with every configuration is to have only players, who are willing to take every advantage and to play the game in the ugly version to win, if it is not already the case. It will scare new players away and it does not allow a relaxed atmosphere. I think that this will result in lesser number of players over time, because it's not easy to build up something around the game against this background.
Just take a look at how it works on some minsta dm server and you will understand.

If equality of opportunity is not a concern, then the game is not built for online gaming.

i don't think new players are aware of your theory. Unless they read it here.

Many people use these settings not because they have insufficient hardware, but because they have more frags with it. In every game, which allow a bit more competition such settings are not tolerated in matches and tournaments. The game allows with the modifications of few variables to have a big advantage and now everybody is using it. Nexuiz is a very fast game and this makes the visibility even more important.
Isn't it a bit strange, that a configuration, which is not in graphic menu is commonly used?
I just don’t believe that every good player and people with a gaming mouse don't have the hardware to play in low settings(graphic menu) with a good frame rate. And I don't think that if most of the players play the game in disabled mod, it is a sign of a good fps.

For open source and cheating. Not every player is a programmer. It is just too easy at present and people don't feel that to take an advantage with r_showsurfaces, r_sky, r_drawfog, r_shownormals and such stuff is not fair play. I think there is just no way to say that this is not a cheat. Maybe it could be helpful if a server can check these cvars or take screenshots on the client side. But that should be combined with an authentication system for player, who want play the game in the competitive way, otherwise people have nothing to fear.
I think it would be enough if you let know people that cheating is not ok.
The problem is not people, who make their own cheat, but people, who just download it. For open source games it is a big problem I know but I think there are ways. Probably it's easier to make detectable cheats than to make a cheat detection system.

I think it usefull that new players are aware of the theory 4m :)

Even if these features were removed, someone would simply host a changed engine binary.

Detections for this do exist, and some servers run it. But even a kick for a violation would be enough to make someone distribute an engine that circumvents this.

divVerent wrote:Even if these features were removed, someone would simply host a changed engine binary

That would be a clear admission they're cheating; it's not something many people would want to do, even to themselves. The problem is that it probably doesn't even occur to them that setting those cvars could be considered cheating because "the game allows it by default". Most will not bother if they first have to set a i_am_a_fucking_cheat_i_want_nexuiz_to_die cvar.

dana wrote:In every game, which allow a bit more competition such settings are not tolerated in matches and tournaments.

In Quakeworld and Quake 3 Arena I played competetive over years it is/was allowed to change the settings. Some values were not allowed, but it was no problem to get perfect view of the enemy with the allowed settings (reducing textures, fullbright skins, better lights). So it is for sure tolerated in some games

As for r_showsurfaces: Well it makes your game look very ugly. I tried to play with that but it actually made me play worse. Sure it can be an advantage for some people, but imo its far less worse than the widely used and accepted r_picmip "5" in q3a. So I don't really see that cvar as a problem to fair play.

About the "wallhack" cvars:

Detections for this do exist, and some servers run it.

That would be cool. Could you give more details on that?
The only anti-cheating cvars I know about are the sv_cullentities_* ones. But they wont give you a perfect result. Here is what I found to work out best (tested in 1on1 only):

sv_cullentities_trace 1
sv_cullentities_trace_samples 8
sv_cullentities_trace_samples_player 32
sv_cullentities_trace_delay 0.001
sv_cullentities_trace_delay_players 0.001
sv_cullentities_trace_prediction 0

It would be very neat if either the mappers fix/optimize their maps or the sv_cullentities_* cvars get optimized somehow.

Radiohe4d wrote:As for r_showsurfaces: Well it makes your game look very ugly. I tried to play with that but it actually made me play worse. Sure it can be an advantage for some people, but imo its far less worse than the widely used and accepted r_picmip "5" in q3a. So I don't really see that cvar as a problem to fair play.

As far as I know, in some games picmip is limited to 3.With default punkbuster as well.
What makes you think that picmip 5 is worse than r_showsurfaces 3?
picmip reduces the quality of the texture, with r_showsurfaces there is no texture at all.


and some other examples "why it is not fair play":

Picmip limitation in Q3 was at my times always at 5. When you use enemy models (FB which everyone uses) in Q3 screenshots you can see them on any distance perfect like in nexuiz. The difference here is just, that you can force the enemy model on your quake3client wheras you have to vote them over the server in nexuiz. On nexuiz public servers they are always OFF. If fullbrightskins are on, it doesnt matter to much if you use r_showsurfaces 3 or gl_picmip 5 in nexuiz or none of these settings at all (like in q3). Because of that, you cannot compare that really. That is like saying that it is a cheat to use a grey skin on a grey map in nexuiz ...

ok I will try it with another image:


but it may be a lost cause.
However, it's just a game... including a loaded dice ;)

say you do fight against this, what about enemymodels and other settings like cl_handicap 0 or cl_handicap 0.0000000001 which lowers the amount of damage you receive and is a client side cvar instead of server side?

you know what?... never mind, i will save my comments for a later time...

play to beat yourself, not others. problem solved.

Mizu Kitsune wrote:say you do fight against this, what about enemymodels and other settings like cl_handicap 0 or cl_handicap 0.0000000001 which lowers the amount of damage you receive and is a client side cvar instead of server side?

you know what?... never mind, i will save my comments for a later time...

possible that this is negligible ;)
I play instagib and my first impression was that this gives rise to not inconsiderable differences.
And the player base of nexuiz is rather small... It can be difficult to keep the disparity between r_sky 0 and r_sky 1 for example.

Fnilp wrote:play to beat yourself, not others. problem solved.

I don't have to play online for that... and to be defeated is not the problem, but to be intentionally a victim ;)

Except that cl_handicap cannot reduce the damage you get, or increase the damage you deal:

if(!DEATH_ISSPECIAL(deathtype))
{
damage *= sqrt(bound(1.0, self.cvar_cl_handicap, 100.0));
if(self != attacker)
damage /= sqrt(bound(1.0, attacker.cvar_cl_handicap, 100.0));
}

This means:

- damage can only get INCREASED by your handicap
- damage can only get DECREASED by the attacker's handicap
- handicap values < 1 are treated as 1

Stop spreading lies.

r_showsurfaces 3 kills my framerate, but it's logical to think that it would do the opposite based on what it does to the graphics.

i for one am almost blind without textures, because i lose orientation. i need detail to focus. Bright colors are too distracting, because they hurt my eyes. i like variety and shun servers with fullbrights or where every model looks the same. (unless it's a Peace Party!)

Wouldn't it make sense to play at the best visibility you could get? But to be honest, i don't undertand the issue, because i PLAY for entertainment and to get my mind off of RealLife troubles. i don't whine about my lag. i don't whine about my packet loss. i don't whine about my hindered eyesight, my useless glasses, my old laptop, my cheap mouse or anything else that distracts me, annoys me, smells bad, screams too loud, .... well, I did now. To me, others never cheat and a camper is just a mountain.
If i can't play, why should others suffer the same? I want You to be happy!

I can't change the world for You right now, but i do what I can. It's a long process. Meanwhile, you will have to wait. Or try to help us. Patience doesn't grow on trees.

I had been a semi-serious simracer for years before coming to Nexuiz. There the textures are so very important, it tells you so much as to what is happening to your car. Subtle differences in angles and such that you would never get on flat polygons. The same goes for Nexuiz for me, I just can not play seriously with r_showsurfaces 3. Maybe this mode is an improvement for camping minsta players, but if you want to move around a map with some speed I can't see a plus side.

4m wrote:If i can't play, why should others suffer the same? I want You to be happy!

I think one of the main aspects of a game is to create an environment in which players can compete against each other. This is quite impossible if you can change everything. It is not that the people don't have the choice… Why not make the game coherent?
As far as I know, warsow was a combination of open and closed source (battleye) for a while to prevent cheating.

Just take a look at here: http://playerkiller.toxicfarm.com/progr ... k-t819.htm
It's kind of a vicious circle... I think the logic results in the elimination of the human factor, because it's the only weak point ;)

dana wrote:

4m wrote:If i can't play, why should others suffer the same? I want You to be happy!

I think one of the main aspects of a game is to create an environment in which players can compete against each other. This is quite impossible if you can change everything. It is not that the people don't have the choice… Why not make the game coherent?
As far as I know, warsow was a combination of open and closed source (battleye) for a while to prevent cheating.

Just take a look at here: http://playerkiller.toxicfarm.com/progr ... k-t819.htm
It's kind of a vicious circle... I think the logic results in the elimination of the human factor, because it's the only weak point

FBSkins are enabled in tournament games anyway, and furthermore voteable on most public minsta servers. If someone wants his opponents skins in a different color, I don't really care..

A few words on the "human factor":
No one likes losing, and its really nice to have an excuse like "omfg he uses fbhack!!11" for your losing. But in my personal experience, the people who complain about such things on public servers have a. a very linear movement, b. zero tactical insight, c. an awful aiming. If you really want to become a good player, work on those things. Visuals are only a small part, and in my opinion everyone should be able to use what fits him/her best (without wallhack of course..). So, if you want to play with r_showsurfaces 3, feel free to do so. But you could achieve much more by studying demos of good players, learning from them and actually improving your skills.