dana wrote:I think one of the main aspects of a game is to create an environment in which players can compete against each other.

I always thought the term "game" was referring to either

a) some wild animals
b) Something that is meant to be fun in the first place

Emphasizing the competitive part is what has turned many games into some sort of sport. I have no trouble with sport, but when I play Nexuiz, I do it for fun. Not for competition. Competition is for tournaments and stuff, which is also the reason why I never participated in any tournament because I feel it takes away the fun part if you try to beat your opponent at all cost.

Coming to think of it, I also do sports for fun but that is another story.

Radiohe4d wrote:No one likes losing, and its really nice to have an excuse like "omfg he uses fbhack!!11" for your losing. But in my personal experience, the people who complain about such things on public servers have a. a very linear movement, b. zero tactical insight, c. an awful aiming.

Sorry if I'm repetitive, but the point is that people who just play for fun don't use such things. And I don't think they care much about the result as long as it doesn't become too one sided.
To replace player models with light objects, and then accuse others of being bad losers, is a distortion of facts or just an elitist perversion. There is a reason to do everything to win...

And if it doesn't change anything, then why do people use it?

halogene wrote:Emphasizing the competitive part is what has turned many games into some sort of sport. I have no trouble with sport, but when I play Nexuiz, I do it for fun. Not for competition. .

As I see it, such subtle cheats are characteristic of the kind of elitism in games without self regulation (stuff like esport events). And that kills the game, no matter what is your reason to play. Competition as well as rules is a "natural" element of game. You can play with the focus on competition or not, but there is no game without delimitation. Chess without rules is not so funny I guess ;)

That's in the first place a problem for new players and people, who just want to enjoy the game.

dana wrote:

Radiohe4d wrote:No one likes losing, and its really nice to have an excuse like "omfg he uses fbhack!!11" for your losing. But in my personal experience, the people who complain about such things on public servers have a. a very linear movement, b. zero tactical insight, c. an awful aiming.

Sorry if I'm repetitive, but the point is that people who just play for fun don't use such things. And I don't think they care much about the result as long as it doesn't become too one sided.
To replace player models with light objects, and then accuse others of being bad losers, is a distortion of facts or just an elitist perversion. There is a reason to do everything to win...

And if it doesn't change anything, then why do people use it?

Individualism. Some players like high-quallity with green skins, others prefer ultra-low quality with red skins etc.
I for one, cannot play at all with r_showsurfaces 3 and stuff. It makes me play worse. Though, others love DSN. Just let everyone chose the environment they feel the most comfort in.

And if we would agree on forbidding those things, what would come up next? Forcing everyone to use the same crosshair and fov? Or what about sounds? I tweaked my sound setup in nexuiz settings so it fits my needs best. New players most probably wont do that too.

To replace player models with light objects, and then accuse others of being bad losers, is a distortion of facts or just an elitist perversion.

First of all, I don't use any hacks at all. No r_showsurfaces, no fbhack or whatever. I'm just getting tired of people who search for excuses at everything and everyone only because they are not able to be honest to themselves. But thats humans nature I guess.

To be conclusive:
If you want to be competitive->be honest to yourself, work on your weaknesses. Demos of good players will help you a lot. Ask good players for a match, record demo of your playing and later analyze it. Will help you to avoid getting into situations which will most likely result in a frag for the opponent.

If you don't care about being competitive -> Um, just play and have fun? Those "hacks" will only make your Nexuiz ugly, means in fact less fun for most people. So why should those people care?

dana wrote:
To replace player models with light objects, and then accuse others of being bad losers, is a distortion of facts or just an elitist perversion. There is a reason to do everything to win...

And if it doesn't change anything, then why do people use it?

I am not really sure I follow you. Why would somebody that uses the "subtle cheats" call another one a "bad loser"? Only, if such other player complains about the winning player using such "subtle cheats". Then, to me, the question is, why does the losing player complain in the first place? If this player wants to play competitive, he/she can easily use the same settings to equal out that "disadvantage".

I think it boils down to the losing player wanting to play competitive with pretty settings, and the pretty settings not being a disadvantage.

BUT: nothing is easier to cure than this disadvantage - what about the other disadvantages like high ping or a bad mouse or screen or rig or chair or haircut?

I suspect that a player that is complaining about other people using the "subtle cheats" will, even when those "subtle cheats" are disabled by making pretty settings obligatory, soon start complaining about any other disadvantage he has in comparison with the winning player. To me, the problem is not the disadvantage nor the winning player calling a complaining loser a "bad loser", but the attitude to complain about disadvantages like that.

I don't ever play with reduced settings, but I would also call someone who complains about the winning player using those so-called "subtle cheats" a "bad loser".

PLUS: making all the pretty stuff obligatory will make the game unplayably slow on many people's hardware.

Radiohe4d wrote:Individualism.

Nice aspect of individualism, to play in another arena…

Radiohe4d wrote:And if we would agree on forbidding those things, what would come up next? Forcing everyone to use the same crosshair and fov? Or what about sounds?

If you are unable to differentiate, you are right, "set by default" or "any modification allowed" is your only choice. But if you take into consideration some factors like accessibility, influence on the gameplay, change of visual perception and so on… I think it's possible to define what should be treated as cheat and what not.

Radiohe4d wrote:First of all, I don't use any hacks at all. No r_showsurfaces, no fbhack or whatever. I'm just getting tired of people who search for excuses at everything and everyone only because they are not able to be honest to themselves. But thats humans nature I guess.

That's just the easy way to get off the hook. But probably you have already noticed that people who are always looking for some excuses are not those who are playing with default settings… most likely it is the behaviour of people, who habitually tweak every single shit.

Radiohe4d wrote:If you don't care about being competitive -> Um, just play and have fun?

You mean that I just have to play with a big smile to make the game enjoyable?
To avoid that a new player has a chance is best way to transform the game in a sick sphere for sick people. Maybe that's your castle, but the discrepancy is large enough without that stuff. People, who watch their own demos, will be the only surviving species if there are no technical limits, because they will push it to the extreme.
And by the way, pressing the space key at irregular intervals doesn't fit very well with contemplation.

halogene wrote:I am not really sure I follow you. Why would somebody that uses the "subtle cheats" call another one a "bad loser"? Only, if such other player complains about the winning player using such "subtle cheats". Then, to me, the question is, why does the losing player complain in the first place?

I think it's logical that a cheater will not be the one, who is the first to complain about it. He may only get tired of hearing the truth and have some trouble with the antilag.
I guess that if someone really can't stand something, then he will make everything to avoid that situation. But if I understand you correctly, deal with it or leave it, right?
Just don't give a shit about it…and take the bigger one.

halogene wrote:If this player wants to play competitive, he/she can easily use the same settings to equal out that "disadvantage".

That's the problem.
If the modification of the game content is the main feature of the game, people should know that, because I suppose that not everyone has set up the wallhack key.
And disadvantage without quotes would be more appropriate, because these settings are not that subtle for the one who plays with them, only for the opponent.

halogene wrote:what about the other disadvantages like high ping or a bad mouse or screen or rig or chair or haircut?

With this line of reasoning a wallhack or an aimbot should not be a problem at all. You have to put it in the perspective of people for whom Nexuiz isn't just an insignificant detail of the world. Otherwise you can imagine…
My concern is not to make everybody the same. On the contrary, what's interesting is the fact that everyone has different abilities. But if you make everything flexible the whole thing becomes blurry. I agree with you that there are other factors like the screen and the mouse. It probably depends on what the chessboard should be. However, I think it is not the solution to have no chessboard at all.

To sum my thoughts up about this topic:
Changing data in any way is a cheat (and yes, even DSN is in my eyes a cheat. I would never play against someone with it on my pc at home. I like some features in it like 2d weaponicons. But they are not implemented in nexuiz. When they get implemented, I am fine with using them). If you want fullbright skins, vote them and dont modify data! Using third party applications like wallhacks or aimbots are cheats.

However, configuring my CFG to get the best settings for myself, is not a cheat. This is also common in other games and sports (i.e.: tennis racket/soccer boots).

dana wrote:To avoid that a new player has a chance is best way to transform the game in a sick sphere for sick people.

When people asked for my settings, they got my CFG. It was also downloadable on the planetnexuiz.de server till all data got lost on this server. But you know what? A new player with my cfg wont have a chance against someone experienced in this or any other game. They dont know the maps, the tactics, spawnpoints, spawntimes and whatnot.

When I was new in nexuiz, I had a lot of questions and I _always_ got help here in the forum or in IRC to tweak my settings. People also helped me to improve my game overall. Because of that, I really hate what you wrote there. People who want help, will get the help.

Bundy wrote: Because of that, I really hate what you wrote there. People who want help, will get the help.

It's a bit provocative I know but the important thing is in the sentence that follows…
The problem is the large discrepancy, because there are not many players.

Here is a graphic to show you what I mean (rough estimation):

Players, who are in the red or blue curve at beginning, play against ppl, who are in competition in the green area.

I think in sport there are also related curves: > professionalism > doping

> http://ideaisaac.blogspot.com/2008/09/w ... -defy.html

Most people don't ask for help... only those who are ambitious I guess

I think it's possible to define what should be treated as cheat and what not.

Tweaking config: Ok
Wallhack/Aimbot/Any 3rd party tools: Not ok
FBHack: I still don't see the problem if the skins are green,red,purple or whatever. In official games FBSkins are enabled anyway, on public servers you can vote them.

And by the way, pressing the space key at irregular intervals doesn't fit very well with contemplation.

Eh?

You mean that I just have to play with a big smile to make the game enjoyable?

No, but if you are not willing to learn certain aspects of the game and to improve yourself, you cannot expect to connect to a random server and kick ass there. Play on a newbie server then.

Please re-read my last posts. I already gave you some hints on how to become a better player. If you want my config, I'll send it, no problems with that. We could also meet on a server and I show you some things. But if you still think that you can become competitive with good players just by doing some config "magic" like r_showsurfaces 3 you are in my opinion either narrow-minded or a troll.

Here is a graphic to show you what I mean (rough estimation):

Great. A graph you made yourself. I could post a graph now too. With my own dataset. Or a picture of a cat, a car, or even a tree! No seriously, if you post a graph, I want to see where you got the data to draw it from. Otherwise its pretty useless..

dana wrote:

halogene wrote:I am not really sure I follow you. Why would somebody that uses the "subtle cheats" call another one a "bad loser"? Only, if such other player complains about the winning player using such "subtle cheats". Then, to me, the question is, why does the losing player complain in the first place?

I think it's logical that a cheater will not be the one, who is the first to complain about it. He may only get tired of hearing the truth and have some trouble with the antilag.
I guess that if someone really can't stand something, then he will make everything to avoid that situation. But if I understand you correctly, deal with it or leave it, right?
Just don't give a shit about it…and take the bigger one.

Seriously, I don't follow you again. What was your point? I don't want to be provocative, I seriously don't know what you are talking about.

Anyway my point is if you are easily able without changing game content data to use the same "subtle cheats", as you call them, then there is no point in complaining about other people doing just that. Why complain about other people using an opportunity that you can use too, if you like? Just because you don't happen to like this opportunity for yourself should not lead into such opportunity not being available to others.

I agree with Radiohe4d on the graph, though I take it you just wanted to display graphically what you wanted to put in words, not to use it as some sort of substantiation. But even so I do not really get your point (again) regarding the comparison of the two graphs. Maybe I am just too darn dim to follow you, I don't know.

If I knew somebody would be playing with such highly-tweaked settings I'd take it as a bonus challenge to fight such player, but maybe that's just me not caring really about winning or loosing.

Everybody can see that my graph is not the result of a scientific process and I have never claimed that. It's a hypothesis based on the assumption that the peak of performance varies between settings (mouse with better resolution, scripts, cheats etc.). I think also that there are different steps in which a player is confronted with issues that might increase his performance. Like the kink in the curve when player moves from amateur to professional status and later uses doping substances.

dana wrote:Everybody can see that my graph is not the result of a scientific process and I have never claimed that.

As I assumed.

dana wrote:Like the kink in the curve when player moves from amateur to professional status and later uses doping substances.

I'd be careful with statements about doping. I take it for granted we both agree using doping substances is NOT a stage in the natural development of a player over a given timeline.

That being said, I think your "graph" outlines that using the configuration tweaks results in a boost of the player's performance. I still do not see what is bothering you. Using specific settings can make some players play better.

So? Why is that a problem? Everybody should be entitled to use the settings they feel the most comfortable with, as long as they don't modify the game content or use bots or stuff like that.

You can prove anything with statistics. If we using cvars is considered cheating, then there are a lot of cheaters in Nexuiz.


If just one way of interpreting it. It's not because some people don't want to use these variables due to some sense of pride or honor, that everyone agrees with that.

If anyone considers this cheating, good on them. I don't. I have the option and I'm using it whilst you are not. That's my choice and yours next to eachother. Either get over it or stop complaining.

To be honest, I think this whole argument is null and useless (As you can't enforce ANYTHING with an opensource engine, especially since it was already so open before). But well, my opinion on it is that only a select few cvars really do any harm. On my server I use patches to force cvars such as fog and other things like that in order to keep the game fair.... (You can do that, btw..) But well, doing that makes low end computers suffer.. which is a bad thing. The whole point these cvars are there is so that low end computers can survive playing the game. I don't think it's an advantage, though, as I always play with sv_fbskin and all those other cvars which make visibility AMAZING.

Samual wrote:To be honest, I think this whole argument is null and useless

No it isn't. It is a very nice argument that is going on now for more than a day and just exceeded its trial period. I only haven't found the time to write a bill yet.

And it is not only contradiction! Want to join in?

I thought we determined what was cheating and what was not on a thread I posted.

http://forums.alientrap.local/viewtopic.php?t=5469

Lee_Stricklin wrote:I thought we determined what was cheating and what was not on a thread I posted.

http://forums.alientrap.local/viewtopic.php?t=5469

Yes we did, and I agree with the outcome of that thread. But obviously dana doesn't.

So I try to find out why, although I seem to have troubles understanding what dana is on about. Must be me, but give me some time, maybe I'll get it sooner or later. I am just curious.

On my server I use patches to force cvars such as fog and other things like that in order to keep the game fair.... (You can do that, btw..)

More details on that please, sounds very interesting to me.

halogene wrote:So? Why is that a problem?

The problem is the interaction between the game and the player base. If there is an advantage and the only ones who take it are those who are heavily focused on competition (quake picmip players). You can imagine what will happen… At a certain point these players will have the majority and there will be no way to change course, to make the game more open and fun. I assume it's a circle of people for whom the only adequate remuneration is that the others have no chance ("CTS" style).
But as far as I can see, that's already the case. The average Nexuiz player uses r_sky 0 and stuff to increase the performance. That's just crazy if you put it into relation to the number of players…"Useless", "deal with it" and whatever are just symptoms.
But maybe that is for what Nexuiz was designed. I don't know.

It's a question about which kind of people play Nexuiz, are in the stronger position and influence the future of the game. Nexuiz is free. New players have no interest to leave a comment. Their voice is the number of players. You have to take that into consideration.

For my part, I don't like to play in a small sphere in which everyone knows everyone. On that score, I have seen some crazy stuff going on in the last time.

ps the generalization is for a better understanding

I do not feel this kind of development that you are depicting. I myself, as stated above, do not play with any cvars that improve visibility (and never have cared to do so). I am not a very good player, but I am usually not "pwned" heavily in Deathmatch games (see for example http://delight.vapor.com/pstats.php?pl=Halogene). The most times that I play I meet people that enjoy playing and are good sports. This is especially true for most of the players that play more frequently and that I know already from the nick. Even if such players use cvars to enhance their performance, they usually will stay absolutely friendly towards other players and keep a fun atmosphere. Many experienced players start to tell tips and tricks to newbies if they notice they want to learn stuff. I do not feel those people are heavily focused on competition.

It may be a totally different thing for Minsta games, as I can see how the cvars would have a bigger impact on the player's performance. And maybe the player base in Minsta is different?

On a side note, as for r_sky 0 I do not quite see your point, because it is fps related only.

But please consider, that my experiences may base on my own behaviour and that I tend to type a lot of "nice map control" or "well played" or stuff like that when I loose a match and feel my opponent has played well. Also, when someone does a good frag on me, I tell him that. You will get totally different feedback from players, even nice players, if you say "pff! Another guy with cheating cvars enabled" at the end of a game.

dana wrote:

halogene wrote:So? Why is that a problem?

The problem is the interaction between the game and the player base. If there is an advantage and the only ones who take it are those who are heavily focused on competition (quake picmip players). You can imagine what will happen… At a certain point these players will have the majority and there will be no way to change course, to make the game more open and fun. I assume it's a circle of people for whom the only adequate remuneration is that the others have no chance ("CTS" style).
But as far as I can see, that's already the case. The average Nexuiz player uses r_sky 0 and stuff to increase the performance. That's just crazy if you put it into relation to the number of players…"Useless", "deal with it" and whatever are just symptoms.
But maybe that is for what Nexuiz was designed. I don't know.

It's a question about which kind of people play Nexuiz, are in the stronger position and influence the future of the game. Nexuiz is free. New players have no interest to leave a comment. Their voice is the number of players. You have to take that into consideration.

For my part, I don't like to play in a small sphere in which everyone knows everyone. On that score, I have seen some crazy stuff going on in the last time.

ps the generalization is for a better understanding

Isn´t that quite normal in any game? When the quake3 playerbase was bigger, it was also split between the competive gamers and those who play for fun. And as long as there arent any big tournements with big prize pools, the number of competive gamers will stay pretty low compared to other games. In nexuiz we have some Beginner servers, which is a good thing. On the other hand there were not any in quake3 and it wasnt a problem there. And to be honest, I think you can count the number of very good players in TDM/1on1 nexuiz on 2 hands. This game is definitive beatable with or without a tweaked config, when you have stable FPS and want to improve your game. A tweaked CFG might give you 2-3% more accuracy for some weapons, which might decide about a win or not when 2 equal skilled players fight each other. But I think thats about it and wont break the game.

Btw. better equipment like mouse/mousepad and a nice connection will improve your aiming a lot more then some tweaks. If we go that far, is it cheating to have the better equipment ?

Dana, from what you wrote here I assume that for you its most important to have fun, and at least not get pwned, correct me if I'm wrong.

When I play on DM servers, I usually use a high-quality config. Sure, if the server doesn't have fbskins enabled and lots of players use gray skins, its sometimes hard to see the opponents. I probably wont frag that fast anymore, but so what? Its DM, to a certain degree its always luck-based (if the good players keep spawning near to you instead of easy to frag n00bs ) and winning there shouldn't really matter too much. At least for me, DM is about action, cool frags and having a nice chillout.

1on1 is a different story though. I still have geometry and texture quality on max, but got most lighting settings (lightmaps, bloom, hdr..) disabled. Together with fbskins which are usually enabled on minsta 1on1 servers, I have a perfect sight. Don't really see the advantage of r_showsurfaces 3 or something there. But I only use settings which are in menu (beside of r_sky 0 ok..), so if those settings are in menu, they are supposed to be customized, or not?

If you don't want this sort of customizations, you could be better of with buying a console. All PC games I know about are somehow tweakable, not only the open source ones.

Anyway, in my personal experience you can have lots of fun, good action and be quite competitive in DM games with a high-quality config.

The only thing I'm pissed off is because of that build-in "wallhack". Ok, map makers may need it, but isn't it somehow possible to disable those cvars server-wide?