This is because of sys_ticrate 0.01666667, which has other advantages though. The only reason why the laser worked so well all the time is that the projectile is delayed by one tic after shooting. But when reducing the ticrate, that delay is much lower, and regular laserjumps become impossible. This is why the secondary got added - to make the previous jumps possible again.

(Technical description: with less delay on the projectile, a forward-down laserjump hits BEFORE you pass the hit point, making it slow you down - with the high delay though, you can shoot angled down, and get past the impact point before the projectile explodes)

The decreased ticrate WILL happen, there is nothing that can be done about it as it's a game design decision by our game designer, LordHavoc. Plus, the lower ticrate DOES have lots of advantages (e.g. missing items when running fast through them much less often) - but this one disadvantage.

well, isn't it possible to have the same behavior with laser(-jumps) as before?

i am just mentioning angled jumps - if it is not straight clear in english, i mean jumps not just into one single direction but unidrectional [as it is/was with laser and the old Quake-games{rocketjumps}]?

i mean, with your socalled improvement you effectually hinder any behavior as known from older FPS games, which isn't the retro-spirit Nexuiz claims to have.


i say, with your 'new' secondary Laser-action you clone the function of the laughed-at shoot-down-jump scripts known from Quake3. (binded for noobs - Laughable. ^^)

This really seems a backward move. backwards way beyond any Quake-precedessor and else.

And well, i didn't know about that tic-rate problem leading to missed items. Never experienced it, or then, i believed i was too fast - - ... - .. and braked. ^^
(So, who did come to harm with the 'old tic-rate-bug'?)

But, for gods sake, this isn't may primary complain. Which is: you changed the secondary-fire-solution to something entirely different. Right now i don't know if the 'switch-to-last-used-weapon'-secondary function can be re-scripted, but for now it seems very odd for games' sake.

I see you claim that the 'new secondary' will make the 'old laserjumps possible again', but i don't think so, because the 'new' secondary just doesn't work the way it did before (think of angular moves/jumps).

fronten wrote:But, for gods sake, this isn't may primary complain. Which is: you changed the secondary-fire-solution to something entirely different. Right now i don't know if the 'switch-to-last-used-weapon'-secondary function can be re-scripted, but for now it seems very odd for games' sake.

I just have to say, this is a retarded function to attach to the laser secondary, I for one am glad it's gone finally, to make room for somekind of actual laser secondary ability.

I mean, you had to push "1" to arm the laser in the first place, so why not just press the number of the weapon you were using or scroll back to it?

And why not keymap another key to switch between your current and last used weapon or between your current weapon and laser, so that you can switch both ways and not take up the laser's secondary attack with a stupid interface option?

fronten wrote:well, isn't it possible to have the same behavior with laser(-jumps) as before?

i am just mentioning angled jumps - if it is not straight clear in english, i mean jumps not just into one single direction but unidrectional [as it is/was with laser and the old Quake-games{rocketjumps}]?

These work for me. Just turn left, shoot the floor with primary, or turn right, use secondary, to make a rightwards jump.

The secondary is merely there to solve the problem that for laser boosting, you'd otherwise need to turn 180 degrees first.

FWIW, I don't think the secondary laser mode is thought out well. The problem with it is that you can gain incredible speeds with it, much faster than using the primary (or even mortar or rocket launcher), plus it does almost no damage and needs no practice whatsoever. You're trying hard to balance the game, this laser secondary just throws it all out the window.

I actually agree with Flying steel here. The laser secondary where you switched to last used weapon was something really weird for a tool like that. Instead of wasting one spot for secondary it's easier to bind a key to the same function.
Yes I for one, in all the Nexuiz version combined together, used that feature like 10 times at most.

I constantly use lasers back to last secondary, its rather well suited to the laser as a movement tool imo, switch to laser, crazyjump, hit secondary right away to switch back. Much easier to do quickly then hitting some key. If the laser secondary would be something that actuality added to the game i would be less opposed to it changing. But as it stand now its, like parasti said, far to easy to reach warp speed with barely no expense or experience + it just feels like a lame mode. If the goal is to enable the moves possible before, just emulate the old behavior (by delaying the projectile) for secondary. then primary is "more free" for something else too.

The laser secondary should be a melee attack.

ai wrote:I actually agree with Flying steel here. The laser secondary where you switched to last used weapon was something really weird for a tool like that. Instead of wasting one spot for secondary it's easier to bind a key to the same function.

OMG, us agreeing on something is like hurling an anti-matter planet at jupiter, meeting your future self and dividing by zero at the same time- the universe just can't take this kind of thing!

Yes I for one, in all the Nexuiz version combined together, used that feature like 10 times at most.

Damnit, I agree with this too. (straps on crash helmet)

Don't make a big deal out of this Flying.

I always did a 180 before laser jumping anyway, so that's not bothering me. I just wish the laser had a secondary function that was an actual laser, so I could explain it to people without them laughing at me.

It could have been a very weak lightning gun with limited ammo for the secondary only. Also, no ammo pickups, you shouldn't use a starting weapon as a primary once you pick up something else.

I still explain it as a rocket jumping tool without the damage.

ai wrote:Don't make a big deal out of this Flying.

I was only joking around, sheesh.

Flying Steel wrote:

ai wrote:Don't make a big deal out of this Flying.

I was only joking around, sheesh.

With our history, you can't blame me for not getting that joke.

I never did any 180 turns when lasering around ever, yet I was still very fast. :p
I just cannot handle it, I get disoriented very easily that way. However, this means my laserjumps didn't always turn out as I wanted them, but I was good enough. ^_^
Adapt and learn. :p

ai wrote:With our history, you can't blame me for not getting that joke.

I was actually thinking that because of our history it'd make sense- somehow our opinions have been almost exactly the opposite of each other something like the last dozen topics, and then we agreed on something out of the blue. So it was like a mechanic of the universe which suddenly reversed itself. Anyways. . .

I never did any 180 turns when lasering around ever, yet I was still very fast. :p
I just cannot handle it, I get disoriented very easily that way. However, this means my laserjumps didn't always turn out as I wanted them, but I was good enough. ^_^
Adapt and learn. :p

I never did 180s either, I'm not sure many other people do that to accelerate with the laser as well. But from DivVerent's description it sounds like the laser primary no long accelerates you forward by shooting directly down while you are moving forward. And the down shooting laser doesn't seem like a very popular solution.

So I propose that we try using the new laser using only its primary and see if we miss the old fire delay or new secondary at all. Maybe it doesn't make that much of a difference. Just a thought.

While this discussion is probably past this at this point, I'd just like to stick in my opinion.

Yes. 2.5.2 has broken weapon balance. It has DESTROYED weapon balance. All I see people using is the machinegun. It doesn't matter what the situation is. Machinegun is the I-win button whether you are a new player or an oldie. Its totally ruined the game in its current state.

Whats the point in even having the other weapons now? I've taken up playing minsta instead, its equally balanced with its one weapon. I just can't play the game normally anymore. The cheapness just makes me angry.

Anyway thats the only thing annoying the piss out of me at the moment. All the other weapon seem fine although the electro is a little 'light' even if it looks pretty.

Yeah, I really dont understand why 2.5.3 isnt out yet, I mean come on, this is an URGENT update, most of the servers flood the command line with the reflection shader bug, and no servers all playable due the broken weapon balance. Please if these 2 are solved, 2.5.3 really should be out: I saw some other bugs on the developer tracker, but really, they are not huge enough to postpone the release for weeks, while in this period most of the servers are unplayable. These 2 issues are currently above all, and since they are fixed it should be important to set back the playability of the servers as soon as possible.

Also a little side note, I really hope that div0 or lordhavoc reads it: we have been playing for hours with frutieX and some other guys on a SVN server, and something is wrong with the antilag in SVN. 2.5.2 has the most increadibly accurate antilag I ever experienced, possibly close to perfect, but in SVN there has been a huge drop in its accuracy, its closer to 2.5.1's antilag, needed quite some prediction in aiming for nex. The server was using g_antilag 2 setup with 60fps server fps. Its the Nexrun Ladder (CPMA) server, please take it a look, this is the only SVN server I know of, but antilag feels to be broken again.

I think a hotfix is needed asap for the weapons and that shader bug. Everything else can wait as they don't really ruin the game.

Lee_Stricklin wrote:I think a hotfix is needed asap for the weapons and that shader bug. Everything else can wait as they don't really ruin the game.

Agreed. These are the most important

Vordreller wrote:

Lee_Stricklin wrote:I think a hotfix is needed asap for the weapons and that shader bug. Everything else can wait as they don't really ruin the game.

Agreed. These are the most important

The shader bug is a real pain in the ass as well. White water that I cant see through? No thank you

i thought of a few ideas to help balance the machine gun a little, to make it harder to spam with.

burst mode: instead of firing as a continual stream, the gun fires in bursts of several shots, before you have to let up on the trigger and fire again.

overheat: a similar idea to burst mode. you can fire continually, but if you do it for to long, the gun overhears, and you have to let it cool down for a a second or 2. this could be avoided by firing in shorter bursts

kick: as you fire the weapon, it gets harder to aim in one place, due to the force of the bullets making the muzzle move around.

It seems like removing continuous fire for the MG would be kind of a radical change that might detract from its theme of a bullet spray gun. All it needs to be balanced is a damage reduction anyway, methinks.

But I think overheating would be a good idea for the HLAC, which otherwise will loose its 'kick' spread and fire rate in the upcoming 2.6 series. So a good application of the overheating counterbalance would be on that weapon.

(To be clear, what you describe as kick is currently implemented in the HLAC.)

Flying Steel wrote:It seems like removing continuous fire for the MG would be kind of a radical change that might detract from its theme of a bullet spray gun. All it needs to be balanced is a damage reduction anyway, methinks.

But I think overheating would be a good idea for the HLAC, which otherwise will loose its 'kick' spread and fire rate in the upcoming 2.6 series. So a good application of the overheating counterbalance would be on that weapon.

(To be clear, what you describe as kick is currently implemented in the HLAC.)

Agree on the HLAC, I toyed around with a slowed-down version of it on some random server and that was almost as bad as gun-boating in Net Mech because it was so damn accurate. As for the machine gun, I think it needs to have both the damage and fire rate toned down a little so that it's balanced again, but doesn't feel radically different.

Yoda almighty wrote:i thought of a few ideas to help balance the machine gun a little, to make it harder to spam with.

burst mode: instead of firing as a continual stream, the gun fires in bursts of several shots, before you have to let up on the trigger and fire again.

overheat: a similar idea to burst mode. you can fire continually, but if you do it for to long, the gun overhears, and you have to let it cool down for a a second or 2. this could be avoided by firing in shorter bursts

kick: as you fire the weapon, it gets harder to aim in one place, due to the force of the bullets making the muzzle move around.

I actually like all these ideas, a little less the kick idea but still good. If the kick is implemented it would have to be tastefully and not like CS where the first shot aims spot on while the others go anywhere BUT where you aim at.

Bursts or overheat, both good and wouldn't care which one as long as one was implemented. If bursts, then maybe keep the the current (or slightly altered) damage as that would make up for the short pause. While, during the pause whoever gets shot at has a sec to think what to do next to avoid being hit.

Lee_Stricklin wrote:Agree on the HLAC, I toyed around with a slowed-down version of it on some random server and that was almost as bad as gun-boating in Net Mech because it was so damn accurate. As for the machine gun, I think it needs to have both the damage and fire rate toned down a little so that it's balanced again, but doesn't feel radically different.

The slowed down version that you played is unfortunately the future 2.6 HLAC. Version 2.6 will destroy the universe.

I wouldn't turn down the fire rate on the MG though because then it uses ammo even more slowly and its ammo consumption should be more balanced with that of the other weapons I think, because they are all about as lethal now.

But the MG's damage needs to be turned down to 25 and 15 or so, from where it currently is at 35 and 20. For some reason, the MG's damage has actually increased since 2.5.1 in addition to being made hitscan (again).

for kick, i was thinking if you fire for if you fire for maybe 3 or 4 seconds, it starts to move around worse.

and burst, you could avoid it simply by letting up on the fire button every couple seconds.

I was thinking like CoD for burst, small short bursts and you'd have to let go the mouse before each one. One would would last like a second or so.

Sry, 2.5.3 is 17 days late. But the biggest issue is fixed; older linux distros had problems before. So it should be out the next few days.
The balance is tweaked in 2.5.3. It's as usual untested, but iirc some 2.5.2 server use those settings.

I still say release JUST a weapon balance fix and water bug fix _now_ and take your time on anything else. It was stupid to postpone such a crucial (apparent) fix in the first place.

ai wrote:I still say release JUST a weapon balance fix and water bug fix _now_ and take your time on anything else. It was stupid to postpone such a crucial (apparent) fix in the first place.

True that.