I've played with it with what are meant to be the same fixes that will be 2.5.3

For me the primary is fine, this is how it should be and no problem with it, is strong enough to do some damage and accurate, like the Q3 mg and UT enforcer.

It's the secondary that really ruins the game for me, it just doesn't fit.

It's way too strong, and always the nex + secondary shotgun can do insane damage..it's not the nex it's the shotgun which is so frustrating with it's secondary fire and stupid push.

Anyone else agree, I just think it would be so much more balanced if we didn't have to put up with the secondary.

For me the nex seems to do so much damage, because you can take some one very quickly with nex + sg secondary + nex if you land both nex shot's, it's also more likely to hit then firing 3x nex shot's in a row also.

This is the only thing that makes me curse/whine in games, very frustrating to have quite a health/armour advantage and this do so much damage.

I really like all the weapons now, the game has come on a long-way, but the secondary of the shotgun make's me want to stop playing again.

I'm inclined to agree. The shotgun seems to have silly push as well, I compare it to the old crylink that would just stop you dead in your tracks. The secondary is just nuts in that with a bit of skill you can use just shotgun + laser to kill people who are significantly better equipped.

Completely agree, i don't know the actual statistics, but in openish spaces secondary sg can render most other weapons , including mortar, rl completely inadequate. I mean its so frustrating, i m even inclined to think nowadays for low ping ppl whoa! a shotgun whore (!!!!!!!) funny : ) ....DM is now not minsta, but shotgunsta matches : ) .It's really fun, ppl just freshly spawning behind you FULLY stacked and 100/100 and just take you out with a couple of shots : ) utterly frustrating. I would also increase the spread of it tbh a bit more.

k0jak wrote:I've played with it with what are meant to be the same fixes that will be 2.5.3 For me the primary is fine, this is how it should be and no problem with it, is strong enough to do some damage and accurate, like the Q3 mg and UT enforcer. It's the secondary that really ruins the game for me, it just doesn't fit. It's way too strong, and always the nex + secondary shotgun can do insane damage..it's not the nex it's the shotgun which is so frustrating with it's secondary fire and stupid push. Anyone else agree, I just think it would be so much more balanced if we didn't have to put up with the secondary. For me the nex seems to do so much damage, because you can take some one very quickly with nex + sg secondary + nex if you land both nex shot's, it's also more likely to hit then firing 3x nex shot's in a row also. This is the only thing that makes me curse/whine in games, very frustrating to have quite a health/armour advantage and this do so much damage. I really like all the weapons now, the game has come on a long-way, but the secondary of the shotgun make's me want to stop playing again.

It sounds like you would love my balance... Basically, all the points you made are fixed in my balance as I nerf the sg quite a bit. WARNING: Do not misunderstand the word nerf... It isn't simply "weaker," it's just different.

Sepelio wrote:I'm inclined to agree. The shotgun seems to have silly push as well, I compare it to the old crylink that would just stop you dead in your tracks. The secondary is just nuts in that with a bit of skill you can use just shotgun + laser to kill people who are significantly better equipped.

My shotgun has no push, as bullets do not have push in real life...

pain_fedora6 wrote:Completely agree, i don't know the actual statistics, but in openish spaces secondary sg can render most other weapons , including mortar, rl completely inadequate. I mean its so frustrating, i m even inclined to think nowadays for low ping ppl whoa! a shotgun whore (!!!!!!!) funny : ) ....DM is now not minsta, but shotgunsta matches : ) .It's really fun, ppl just freshly spawning behind you FULLY stacked and 100/100 and just take you out with a couple of shots : ) utterly frustrating. I would also increase the spread of it tbh a bit more.

Some of your points are really quite exaggerated, but I get your point.. Again, it's fixed.


But yes, the main change I did was no force... You have no idea how much of a difference it makes.. It places the gun in a usable, but less than powerful, status. (Like the laser, although that's used for other things mostly.) -- Note, my balance will be the 2.6 balance, so this change will be done.

Samual wrote:My shotgun has no push, as bullets do not have push in real life...

Good job, dude. That would have been beyond unacceptable in a game that is otherwise completely based in reality...

Good to hear samual, but does that mean the secondary will still be in place?

I like UT and Q3 because the enforcer and machine gun both are STARTING weapons, and they do a bit of damage, but do what they are meant to do which is give you a BASIC weapon for defending, against armour and shieldbelt in both game's they both take quite a long while to kill someone. Currently in nexuiz this is not the case and it's crazy.

It's also very frustrating as it's very hard to get any kind of lock (from a competitive point of view) on a map as people just gun you down with the shogun all to quickly as you know.

Another down-side is it forces people not to use the other weapons like crylink/hagar/electro.

Well kind of a shame nexuiz is changing dramatically in 2.6 in one way, but I just hope it's all for the best

Can you msg me on IRC if you want some help testing some stuff or practice game's or something would like to contribute to make sure 2.6 is as good as possible as it can be gameplay wise

Tough i had a fun time slaughtering stached ppl and racking up 30 kill sprees with the shotty only in the original 2.5.2 balance , I agree with OP. Still I do like the availability of a brutal close range wep. One solution could be ti not have the secondary fire available at spawn, but as a pickup (weapon upgrade pickups in general could be fun =) And yeh the push bugs me too, perhaps even more then the dmg output.

Samual's balance seem to RAMP UP the shotty's secondary to a max of ~180 dmg (6 pellets, 10 dmg each x 3) Its also got all sorts of funky shit like nex damage based on range etc. so its hard to compare. Personally i prefer the 2.3.2 balance with sg/mg fix and some minor tweaks to this.

I like the idea of the pickup weapon upgrades. Thats quite neat.

This "nerf" of yours Samual.. its not nerfing.

(Just uploaded, quality will get better)

I think this could be well within the range of awesome!
If I would have some wishful thinking granted, it would be this/article. ;P

(Click for proper academic PDF saucedge)

Pfft you call those weapon upgrades?

See: http://free-game-downloads.mosw.com/aba ... blast.html

That game had weapon upgrades.

Ah here we are, just skip through it to see the final awesome result:
( I have this for the amiga, its great fun)

tZork wrote:This "nerf" of yours Samual.. its not nerfing.

(Just uploaded, quality will get better)

Lol, nice video/music -- But well, wtf spread?... I thought I had the spread a lot higher for secondary (Even primary) --- I'll look into fixing it in the morning.

Samual wrote:

tZork wrote:This "nerf" of yours Samual.. its not nerfing.

Lol, nice video/music -- But well, wtf spread?... I thought I had the spread a lot higher for secondary (Even primary) --- I'll look into fixing it in the morning.

Its the setting as they are in svn (when execing your balance config. On a side note, its hard to tell where your hit from w/o any force at all (bots obviously don't care, but if you look at the vid ~1min in you see me doing the spindoctor to find out where the hurt is coming from).

tZork wrote:

Samual wrote:

tZork wrote:This "nerf" of yours Samual.. its not nerfing.

Lol, nice video/music -- But well, wtf spread?... I thought I had the spread a lot higher for secondary (Even primary) --- I'll look into fixing it in the morning.

Its the setting as they are in svn (when execing your balance config. On a side note, its hard to tell where your hit from w/o any force at all (bots obviously don't care, but if you look at the vid ~1min in you see me doing the spindoctor to find out where the hurt is coming from).

That shouldn't be an issue, as one could simply listen where the shots are coming from.. Even with stereo headsets it should be fine. And well, yeah it's incorrect in SVN. Apparently I forgot to commit it from my local version, and when I merged it later I deleted my own changes.

K, I updated the balance just a bit ago -- I nerfed both the primary and secondary a bit:

Primary: [The primary was too powerful before as it was like a sinper shotgun, it now seems balanced.. I may increase the spread a bit more from this too.]
- Damage 8 (was 10)
- Spread 0.11 (was 0.06)
- Speed 8,000 (was 12,000) [note, this makes bullets curve downward in their path, from gravity]

Secondary: [Maximum damage with 3 shot burst and ALL shots hitting is now 144... And all shots hitting is incredibly difficult, I did debugging and found that it was very rare, even at very close range]
- Damage 8 (was 10)
- Spread 0.17 (was 0.1)
- Speed 8,000 (was 12,000)

Again, these were the changes I had INTENDED to go in initially, I forgot to commit them (Well, I believe I had 9 damage for primary before). Let me know if these work out, if not suggest something else (other than making shotgun a pickup weapon, which I will not let happen).

Could you make damage from the shots decrease as distance from the shooter increases?

That will help reinstate the SG as a close range weapon, I guess.

AnArKiSt wrote:Could you make damage from the shots decrease as distance from the shooter increases? That will help reinstate the SG as a close range weapon, I guess.

Well I was thinking about doing a similar falloff from the Nex to all bullet guns, but well.... that just seems a bit much for the shotgun, as the secondary is already 0.17 spread --- Do you have any idea how much spread that is?

But, maybe.

Samual wrote:

AnArKiSt wrote:Could you make damage from the shots decrease as distance from the shooter increases? That will help reinstate the SG as a close range weapon, I guess.

Well I was thinking about doing a similar falloff from the Nex to all bullet guns, but well.... that just seems a bit much for the shotgun, as the secondary is already 0.17 spread --- Do you have any idea how much spread that is?

But, maybe.

Hey you know, that could fix another major issue. Right now hitscan weapons seem to be or are considered to be imbalanced in general on all the big open maps that dominate CTF servers. Making these weapons lose potency with range might really help level the field between them and the numerous projectile weapons.

Totally disagree. That awesome shotgun is one of the reasons I liked this game to begin with.

RoyalAbidi wrote:Totally disagree. That awesome shotgun is one of the reasons I liked this game to begin with.

lol........really?

Sepelio wrote:Pfft you call those weapon upgrades?

See: http://free-game-downloads.mosw.com/aba ... blast.html

That game had weapon upgrades.

Ah here we are, just skip through it to see the final awesome result:
( I have this for the amiga, its great fun)

omg, I was just about to post this game. I had it on Sega Mega Drive II. You could buy cool weapon upgrades

Well just played out 2on2tdm tournament game, and although they were close game's it was almost all...minigun, and shotgun - the most disappointing game i've played.

Although teamplay was quite lacking it wasn't hard to understand why, no chance..or even no time to do anything, as soon as I or kyre got some stuff we were immediately mowed down by the sg mostly, and another 1 second mg barrage. So it became impossible to even group up a lot.

Trying to secure the quad was as equally frustrarting, which ended up being who got there the latest with there sg's..which on both maps was mainly doom squirrels, I think we got 2 quads on the second map the whole game.

I can't blame anyone except the game, no one really sucked albeit out of practice a little, our opponents both had good german pings (s0rk and thyr4ne) but the match became a two/three weapon game of, sg,mg and nex (which became useless vs mg most of the time)

Reminds me of how demoralizing this game is to play at times, and people moan about the nex gun damage

4 hit's is what it took to pretty much kill me with 100health and some armour with the mg.

I once had 120/200 h/a on aneurysm and was dead after 2 shotgun secondary combo's and something else that hit me.

Please fix this game, what's the point of even picking up other weapons anymore with this stupid damage.

k0jak wrote:Well just played out 2on2tdm tournament game, and although they were close game's it was almost all...minigun, and shotgun - the most disappointing game i've played.

Although teamplay was quite lacking it wasn't hard to understand why, no chance..or even no time to do anything, as soon as I or kyre got some stuff we were immediately mowed down by the sg mostly, and another 1 second mg barrage. So it became impossible to even group up a lot.

Trying to secure the quad was as equally frustrarting, which ended up being who got there the latest with there sg's..which on both maps was mainly doom squirrels, I think we got 2 quads on the second map the whole game.

I can't blame anyone except the game, no one really sucked albeit out of practice a little, our opponents both had good german pings (s0rk and thyr4ne) but the match became a two/three weapon game of, sg,mg and nex (which became useless vs mg most of the time)

Reminds me of how demoralizing this game is to play at times, and people moan about the nex gun damage

4 hit's is what it took to pretty much kill me with 100health and some armour with the mg.

I once had 120/200 h/a on aneurysm and was dead after 2 shotgun secondary combo's and something else that hit me.

Please fix this game, what's the point of even picking up other weapons anymore with this stupid damage.

+100,000 that, mg and sg are very annoying.

It's silly that you start with a weapon that has:
- Low spread (primary: for a shotgun, yes, really low)
- Good accuracy, good even in mid-range: can inflict quite a lot of damage over even high distances if only you hit with primary
- Great in short-range battles with the secondary
- Low refire, low animtime
- High damage as kojn said

Which disadvantages even exist with the shotgun, except for no splash damage? Why pick up another weapon at all?

Without the machine gun or shotgun, I think the Nex would be even more overpowered. I can't say how many time I've taken down a sniper with them when I didn't have a Nex myself.

As for your example, I find that strange from my own experience. I haven't seen games where either a) both sides stuck to the MG and SG or b) one side stuck to those weapons and had an unfair advantage. Most of the unfair dominance I see comes from Nex usage.

Using the SG and MG seems unfair but there are ways to counter them. Good ways include closing the distance and using other weapons, especially ones that disorient the player (rocket launcher and mortar for instance). Also, while hitscan seems like an advantage, it isn't always, since if you miss you miss (there's no splash damage to help you). So, if you can really maneuver yourself well (which I see a lot of good players do), people will have a harder time hitting you with the SG and MG.

In close to mid range fights, both the MG and SG don't have as much damage per second. Yeah, a talented aimer holding down the primary machine gun fire, or two dead on secondary fire shotgun bursts can do a ton of damage...but I find most people aren't that good at doing so. Even if they are, they could probably kill you faster with another weapon anyway (which is what I see they usually do).

Not to mention the shotgun and machine gun are relatively useless for taking down groups of opponents.

Dahveed, you really need to play against better opposition then

The fact is, out of no other games have I played have I had such a massively powerful starting weapon/s..you don't just get the sg you get the laser too.

There's little point in grabbing another weapon very little in trying to control a weapon (like the nex which should be as it is) and trying to control a map. On aneurysm I just played my own game because that was the only way I was getting frags and decided just to stay in the distance all the time, , it was pointless fighting for nex/rl etc, the mg was easier to get and was doing more damage along with my sg.

You should gain frags with the less powerful weapons by using skill and cunningness, but there's no need, go grab the mg or use your sg and wade into battle and you'll most likely either kill someone or do a hell of a lot of damage.

I mean on one map the RL was pointless, I hardly even got a shot off before I was mowed down, 4 bullet's to kill a spawned player from the mg with it's secondary fire...

Kyre will vouch for me with this too, as will most of seasoned nexuiz players on here, it's just ridiculous.

I wish we could just keep a set of good balance for once and for all, without it having to be changed constantly when there is no need.

FruitieX wrote:

k0jak wrote:Well just played out 2on2tdm tournament game, and although they were close game's it was almost all...minigun, and shotgun - the most disappointing game i've played.

Although teamplay was quite lacking it wasn't hard to understand why, no chance..or even no time to do anything, as soon as I or kyre got some stuff we were immediately mowed down by the sg mostly, and another 1 second mg barrage. So it became impossible to even group up a lot.

Trying to secure the quad was as equally frustrarting, which ended up being who got there the latest with there sg's..which on both maps was mainly doom squirrels, I think we got 2 quads on the second map the whole game.

I can't blame anyone except the game, no one really sucked albeit out of practice a little, our opponents both had good german pings (s0rk and thyr4ne) but the match became a two/three weapon game of, sg,mg and nex (which became useless vs mg most of the time)

Reminds me of how demoralizing this game is to play at times, and people moan about the nex gun damage

4 hit's is what it took to pretty much kill me with 100health and some armour with the mg.

I once had 120/200 h/a on aneurysm and was dead after 2 shotgun secondary combo's and something else that hit me.

Please fix this game, what's the point of even picking up other weapons anymore with this stupid damage.

+100,000 that, mg and sg are very annoying.

It's silly that you start with a weapon that has:
- Low spread (primary: for a shotgun, yes, really low)
- Good accuracy, good even in mid-range: can inflict quite a lot of damage over even high distances if only you hit with primary
- Great in short-range battles with the secondary
- Low refire, low animtime
- High damage as kojn said

Which disadvantages even exist with the shotgun, except for no splash damage? Why pick up another weapon at all?

Nail on the head

Well, I nerfed the shotgun in my balance even more recently... The spread is ridiculous (You can't hit anyone more than 10 feet away with more than 1 bullet) and the damage is reduced DRAMATICALLY... Also: No force on the bullets... Basically, the shotgun is weaker than the laser right now in my balance to a certain extent... (Except at very close range, that's the only place where this weapon is useful, think of it as a GET OUT OF MY SPAWNING AREA YOU SPAWN RAPING BASTARD weapon)

Sounds good.

Is there a server where I can play with these settings Samual?

Also, is 2.6 going to be a huge revamp or not now, I heard it isn't and the settings will be voteable..which basically would mean no one would use them and stick to the current stuff we have. Is it still going to become default/different weapons and movement etc?

I agree Samual's changes seem like just the ticket.

The other issue of course is the good old MG which is attracting much whining. It is just downright insane. I personally think the only real solution is to add recoil to it so it gets more spread with each shot. This will stop people just getting 999 bullets and spraying everywhere.

k0jak wrote:Is there a server where I can play with these settings Samual? Also, is 2.6 going to be a huge revamp or not now, I heard it isn't and the settings will be voteable..which basically would mean no one would use them and stick to the current stuff we have. Is it still going to become default/different weapons and movement etc?

My server is located at matrix.mcintec.net:26000 (Or just matrix.mcintec.net) -- It has my balance/physics up most if not all the time... Also, my balance/physics will become default, but of course the server owner still has domain on whatever balance they want to use.. It really is their choice. And in all honesty, I think people will like the new balance if they're open minded to the reasons I chose the settings I did. (Note, there are severals who already are fine with it.. It is hard to get used to though, I will admit.) I would also like to point out that I have done some tests with friends seeing which balance they like better, being that they've never played the game before.. 90% (9/10) liked my balance better -- And no, I did not tell them it was my own balance. -- One of them didn't like either balance though, but they're into slower gameplay.. I pointed them to old old havoc and they liked that.. But there's no way in hell that is becoming default, as it ruins the game for EVERYONE except that one person who likes slow games.. Anyway, I will explain the reasons for the changes on my server directly if anyone shows up, they're hard to explain without actually being directly there due to feedback people will inevitably have.

Sepelio wrote:I agree Samual's changes seem like just the ticket. The other issue of course is the good old MG which is attracting much whining. It is just downright insane. I personally think the only real solution is to add recoil to it so it gets more spread with each shot. This will stop people just getting 999 bullets and spraying everywhere.

Try mine, hopefully it's not too bad... I really do want more input on several weapons actually, mostly being the MG and the rifle.


Anyway my full goal with the balance is pleasing most people, as you can't really please everybody... And i'm going to the direction of faster gameplay. Some people may not like this, but from discussions i've had, most of the Nexuiz players like faster gameplay better than slower gameplay. I'll leave with: My physics are like a mix between 2.3 physics and nanl, but slightly slower...