But uh, what's wrong with 2.5's physics?

Flying Steel wrote:But uh, what's wrong with 2.5's physics?

Its old, gotta change things up every release to keep 'em guessing Seriously tough, i second this question.

tZork wrote:

Flying Steel wrote:But uh, what's wrong with 2.5's physics?

Its old, gotta change things up every release to keep 'em guessing Seriously tough, i second this question.

Nothing much really, however the point of increasing their speed is for faster gameplay... I already covered this in my last post (People like faster gameplay)

But really, other than that, why DO we keep changing the physics? I know we changed the 2.5 physics with sv_pogostick... But, why did it change in the past? Is it just a strive to keep evolving? Or were their issues that pressed it to change.. (The balance of course changes because of a need for a rebalance, any developer knows when you add a new weapon you need to rebalance at least slightly and etc )

It's not that we wanted faster physics, its that we didn't want the havoc weapon balance that was going to make killing someone take forever (and be terribly boring in every other way too).

Your physics aren't bad and they'd probably be really fun on open maps, but they aren't really better than 2.5's, so IMO 2.5 physics should be default for 2.6, which could then focus on being a significant weapon balance change.

If there was character class code working, I'd recommend simply spreading these different physics presents over different characters. So I'm not against different physics, just if you have one default preset, then it seems like 2.5 is the best fit yet for such a place.

Flying Steel wrote:It's not that we wanted faster physics, its that we didn't want the havoc weapon balance that was going to make killing someone take forever (and be terribly boring in every other way too).

Your physics aren't bad and they'd probably be really fun on open maps, but they aren't really better than 2.5's, so IMO 2.5 physics should be default for 2.6, which could then focus on being a significant weapon balance change.

If there was character class code working, I'd recommend simply spreading these different physics presents over different characters. So I'm not against different physics, just if you have one default preset, then it seems like 2.5 is the best fit yet for such a place.

If possible, I always thought physics and weapon balance should be map specific, but I don't know much about the inner workings of Nexuiz or Dark Places and I can't code for squat. Ideally that would be the best way to do it though.

Lee_Stricklin wrote:

Flying Steel wrote:

If possible, I always thought physics and weapon balance should be map specific, but I don't know much about the inner workings of Nexuiz or Dark Places and I can't code for squat. Ideally that would be the best way to do it though.

They can with a mapinfo file.. But, regardless, that should not happen for balance (It's fine for physics) --- Balance always changes and over time the map would become obsolete due to outdated balance. (For example, if the game code changes a lot)

Anyway, I discovered that we didn't really change the physics very much.. (Only a few times actually) The main reason we changed them is because of a bug or due to other problems with the current physics.. Because of this, there is no reason to change them for 2.6 and I won't make my physics default. In fact, we aren't really supposed to change the physics in minor releases anyway.. If anything, the change will happen at 3.0.

In my opinion your making it harder for newer player's to learn them if they keep changing.

I like most other's will say just keep them (no need to change them again, unless it's to CPM physics )

Back on topic, the machinegun isn't as bad as I though, but it still needs weakening a bit.

It's the shotgun that needs completely changing (and I know you've done this).

I'm free this weekend, so would be nice if you can join me on your server so I can see the settings and have a shoot with the shotgun

Actually I think I can finally get around to tweak the MG and SG for ladder servers this weekend too.

To save me some time, does anybody know the values that are supposed to be used officially for the next release? From what I've heard, changing weapons officially for the next release is just to weaken ("fix") the SG and MG anyawy. Otherwise my suggestion would be to make the SG half as powerful and MG maybe 70% of 2.5.2 settings, regarding DPM (damage per minute)

I'd try 70% or 75% seems like a reasonable figure to be honest, 30% will be noticeable and SHOULD have a good impact any weaker and I think it'll become too useless so 70% sounds good. One thing is for sure don't make it too weak. Although I have been enjoying out mg fights as of late in 1on1

Just SG sucks ass, so looking forward to your change for that!

Bah, why are we once again ducking the most obvious and effective solution to this ancient problem?

If it is overpowered as a starting weapons, then make it not a starting weapon! Make it a pickup, similar to the machine gun, only balanced to be more effective as a close-quarters weapon. Then you have done three very good deeds at once:

1) Balanced the shotgun.
2) Made the shotgun not mind-numbingly useless and boring.
3) Prevented the next dozen of these shotgun balancing threads from ever happening.

The laser is the starting and backup weapon, it is not overpowered and it never runs out of ammo. That's enough, make the shotgun a real weapon.

Samual wrote:Well, I nerfed the shotgun in my balance even more recently... The spread is ridiculous (You can't hit anyone more than 10 feet away with more than 1 bullet) and the damage is reduced DRAMATICALLY... Also: No force on the bullets... Basically, the shotgun is weaker than the laser right now in my balance to a certain extent... (Except at very close range, that's the only place where this weapon is useful, think of it as a GET OUT OF MY SPAWNING AREA YOU SPAWN RAPING BASTARD weapon)

Problem is, if it's weak and has a "fast refire rate" it means a spawnraper can just sit there with his nex, then fire a mortar at you, death within half a second - one second *looks at kojn >:)*. You might get a chance to fire two primary shots at the enemy, which won't help much (especially now that you "nerfed" them even further). What should be considered is a SLOW refire, HIGH spread, HIGH bullet count and as a result of that obviously a lower damage per bullet. Take a look at the Nexrun shotty for instance, you can do about 120 damage if you fire a really good shot from within close range, and still use it over long ranges but at a MUCH lower damage, still easy to hit though. Total maximum damage should of course not exceed what you spawn with, else this idea can backfire

Now, I also agree with the shotgun being a pickup. Laser is a bit too weak to have as your only starting weapon though, which is why we could just nerf the damned uzi once for all and have that as a starting weapon. What's the current DPS of the uzi at really, 300? Feels so after playing a couple of rounds against the frag machines.

Actually for both of you, green has nerfed the shotgun to 50% and the mg to 80% of it's 2.5.2 values. So it should make them both fine now, shotgun definitely.

These should be fine, will make the mg still very useable and good to counter-act the nexgun so it's not just nex domination but also so it's a bit better balance wise, let the mg lightning gun style trade-off's re-commence!

I'm sure he'll put his values up in this thread

new ladder settings:

Code: Select all

//Shotgun: bullets stay the same (6 bullets per shot).
//Max. primary damage per shot was 72, now 36 (if all bullets hit)
//Reduction to 50% of Nexuiz 2.5.2's damage values ... we want the starting weapon to be weak!
set g_balance_shotgun_primary_damage 6 // 12 in 2.5.2
set g_balance_shotgun_secondary_damage 6 // 12 in 2.5.2

//Machine gun:
// _first_damage is done by individually shot bullets (in primary fire mode) or when holding alt fire button
// _sustained_damage applies when holding primary fire button
//Reduction to 80% of Nexuiz 2.5.2's damage values
set g_balance_uzi_first_damage 28 // 35 in 2.5.2
set g_balance_uzi_sustained_damage 16 // 20 in 2.5.2

FruitieX wrote:Now, I also agree with the shotgun being a pickup. Laser is a bit too weak to have as your only starting weapon though,

Just slightly increase its projectile speed, damage or give it a melee attack. Problem solved!

which is why we could just nerf the damned uzi once for all and have that as a starting weapon.

That recreates the same problem, only with the MG instead of the SG. Besides we don't need two starting weapons in a game where each weapon has 2 attacks already.

Flying Steel wrote:Just slightly increase its projectile speed, damage or give it a melee attack. Problem solved!

Hmmm heck yes for all of these. But I still stand for my opinion that the shotgun should have a slightly longer refire on it's primary fire mode.
/me will try to improve his gauntlet code later today

I'd prefer the longer refire on SG primary as well. Gives it more distance from MG and Crylink. Something like the shotgun from sauerbraten or halo.

Flying Steel wrote:I'd prefer the longer refire on SG primary as well. Gives it more distance from MG and Crylink. Something like the shotgun from sauerbraten or halo.

I would make it like Halo or Sauer, but they both CHEAT with the projectiles for the shotgun... Cheating sucks. Anyway I disagree with making it a pickup as it is not too strong nor too weak to be a spawn weapon. Also: MG as spawn weapon? SERIOUSLY FRUITIEX, GET OUT OF YOUR QUAKE-NEXUIZ MIXTURE...

I already increased the laser projectile speed from 9,000 to 12,000 (All laser weapons use this value now too -- Although that's the only laser weapon I have enabled in the balance). I had to do this so that the projectile would arrive at nearly the same time as before with a fire delay (This is to compensate for the 60fps ticrate planned for 2.6) The uzi is already nerfed a lot due to high refire rate, I had to balance it out so I removed all force from the uzi and lowered the damage significantly. (Same goes for shotgun, no force..... It's wrong.)

FruitieX wrote:

Samual wrote:...

Problem is, if it's weak and has a "fast refire rate" it means a spawnraper can just sit there with his nex, then fire a mortar at you, death within half a second - one second *looks at kojn >:)*. You might get a chance to fire two primary shots at the enemy, which won't help much (especially now that you "nerfed" them even further). What should be considered is a SLOW refire, HIGH spread, HIGH bullet count and as a result of that obviously a lower damage per bullet. Take a look at the Nexrun shotty for instance, you can do about 120 damage if you fire a really good shot from within close range, and still use it over long ranges but at a MUCH lower damage, still easy to hit though. Total maximum damage should of course not exceed what you spawn with, else this idea can backfire

I don't really think spawn raping is an issue.. For one, it's CERTAINLY not an issue in team matches unless the enemy team is raiding your spawn.. In which case, you have the upper hand as you get to spawn right back there with your health again. In 1v1s, this only a minor problem really. Those who know how to spawn rape also know how to avoid being spawn raped (Get the fuck out of there quickly), it's a matter of your opponents skill versus your skill. If you're worse, you should be losing imo. Even so, predicting spawns is not possible (It's random) and even if you do get lucky, the enemy was the one who died in the first place. If they didn't die and you did, they would be the ones in the position to spawn rape you. However, one perfect solution to this is calculating enemy distance from spawn points when attempting to spawn, then selecting the one which is furthest away from the enemy (In DM only of course, or TDM or other game modes where this would work).

Now, I also agree with the shotgun being a pickup. Laser is a bit too weak to have as your only starting weapon though, which is why we could just nerf the damned uzi once for all and have that as a starting weapon. What's the current DPS of the uzi at really, 300? Feels so after playing a couple of rounds against the frag machines.

The current DPS of the primary of the uzi is ~91 and secondary is ~72. (AND THAT'S IF YOU HIT EVERY SHOT, WHICH IS HARD considering it fires 13 shots per second) along with 0 force, it's not exactly a strong weapon. It even has 0.05 spread on primary and 0.015 on secondary.



BTW, what Green did isn't enough, it's wrong for 2.6 balance. (Perfect for 2.5.2 balance, though)





Edit: I'd like to say that it seems most of you haven't really examined my balance Your lack of understanding for it (e.g. thinking the mg dps is 300... But that's not the only example) annoys me, please read balance.cfg in latest SVN (ALWAYS LATEST, as in the same day at least in case I make a change) before commenting on the balance. If you don't understand something about the balance, e.g. the uzi settings (They're confusing unless you know how it works) then simply ask how that works. Note: There are some parts of the balance which i'm completely undecided on right now, example being health and armor and ammo. So many people have so many different opinions on these, it's very hard to decide. Note: I'm looking for opinions which understand reasons to change it and not to change it, not "I don't want things to change" opinions. So ignore those aspects of the balance for now please, I need to do more testing and etc to find out what to do with those. I also need to develop the LMS health and ammo settings, and many other settings which take time to make.. I can't start on that until I decide on the primary health and armor and ammo though.

By the way, is there a test server up somewhere that runs your latest config? To me it would be a lot easier to understand the impact of your rebalancing if I could play some matches against human opponents. All the numbers are a great thing to compare, but I have learned that some weapons may have incredible dps values but still feel underpowered against other weapons that are, for instance, easier to handle.

I am not requesting a test server to be up, just asking if there is one, maybe I only missed it.

Yes, DCC public servers use SVN MG, SG and RL weapon settings.

Cool, thanks! DCC's is the only server I am currently playing anyway. But, if I may ask, why only MG, SG and RL? Wouldn't it make sense to always use the full re-balanced config rather than parts of it?

Just curious... I feel like I am missing the bleeding obvious at some point here.

Simple: I just don't really like all the changes in SVN. Though Samual showed me why he thinks these settings are cool, and I have to admit there's fantasy in it, it's just too far from classic Nexuiz. The electro might deserve the change too, the secondary fire is not so spammy, iirc it was something like this around 1.x too. I might revert the RL too, because it doesn't do enough damage imho.

Ok, thanks - that is a valid explanation :o)

RL refire rate is slower than before right? This would be fine if the splash damage would at least stay the same imho. The speed has gone up, too.. So this might make for an interesting change in tactics.. Right now it feels a bit overnerfed..

Samual wrote:I would make it like Halo or Sauer, but they both CHEAT with the projectiles for the shotgun... Cheating sucks.

But what does that have to do with refire rates?

Anyway I disagree with making it a pickup as it is not too strong nor too weak to be a spawn weapon.

But it will be again the next time some other weapon is tweaked, or the code behind the shotgun is tweaked (like the recent hitscan > projectile > hitscan shift). And it will always throw things out of control when that happens because it is a starting weapon. And because it is a starting weapon with ammo consumption, that therefore needs to be reasonably powerful to be fair.

Also it's a fucking close range weapon, why is the main starting weapon only good in close? This contributes to ranged weapons like the Nex always ending up so imbalanced. Focusing the starting firepower on something versatile like the laser would help level things out on this issue of spawn camping.

Plus the starting shotgun is squatting on the close-ranged-powerhouse slot. Most games have a REAL shotgun, a powerful close-in pickup weapon. Preferably one that looks, feels, sounds and plays like some variant of a real shotgun (with some exaggerated spread).

Your balance might end up doing a good job of working around these shotgun problems, but it'll still play like a work around. And the next time the arsenal needs to be rebalanced for whatever reason, the starting shotgun will have to be worked around again. There will be more 2.4 and 2.5.2 shotguns again and again and again. Just eliminate this problem for good so our children won't be posting in threads like these some day. :P

Idea for the laser: Actually make it a *real* laser, as in shoot a red beam similar to a lightningun (of course weaker than that). Secondary mode could still allow for trickjumps if we really have to have that...

I most strongly object to the idea to make the primary laser some weird beam of light. This would be ridiculous. Haven't you seen Star Wars? Laser can be shots that travel like projectiles or they can be sticks in a tube. But NOT a weird beam of light.

Besides that, I personally love the laser the way it is, it has been my all-times favorite weapon. Ever since I learned about laser jumping, which is quite some time ago. Also I love to juggle people around with it, especially on space maps.

In my opinion a shotgun close to what was in 2.4.2 would work well. The damage rate was a bit lower than what I would have liked, but I think with a slight increase to that it would be balanced for the current version.

halogene wrote:I most strongly object to the idea to make the primary laser some weird beam of light. This would be ridiculous. Haven't you seen Star Wars? Laser can be shots that travel like projectiles or they can be sticks in a tube. But NOT a weird beam of light.

Besides that, I personally love the laser the way it is, it has been my all-times favorite weapon. Ever since I learned about laser jumping, which is quite some time ago. Also I love to juggle people around with it, especially on space maps.

*Thinks about many times where he has popped somebody up into the air and finished them with a shotty*

I'll die before I go back to that (non-hit-scan) or a similarly bad shotgun!

I'll throw down the useless weapon at game start for some ignorant noob to pick up for its useless ammo, the poor stupid bastard. Then with one hand I'll train my oddly named laser on some nadless nex whore striking poor spawnlings with bolts of brilliant imba. His left hand fingers having atrophied from the years of camping, my first shots will be direct hits while he struggles to find WASD on his keyboard. But then there will be no salvation for me, my fate already having been sealed on these forums, by bean counters who for no reason at all decided to base my starting arsenal around the most shitastic shotgun seen in any game, ever. No there will be no hope for me, it is true only the good players get fragged early. With one, maybe two, clicks of the mouse from the icy fingers of the perched nex fairy, the chest of my fearless digital self will be torn instantly open, like the sudden blooming of a brilliant red rose of sacrifice, and the plasma in my veins will a moment later vaporize all that remains of my avatar into a rapidly expanding fountain of countless gibs and hearty all caps curses. Then, I may not have died a hero, but at least I will have died a man!

Oh god i'm in for some fun answering all this... I should be less lazy and go on the forums more often.. Anyway:

halogene wrote:By the way, is there a test server up somewhere that runs your latest config? To me it would be a lot easier to understand the impact of your rebalancing if I could play some matches against human opponents. All the numbers are a great thing to compare, but I have learned that some weapons may have incredible dps values but still feel underpowered against other weapons that are, for instance, easier to handle.

I've said several times already that my server at matrix.mcintec.net is up with the balance.. However, there is a bug in SVN which makes some clients disconnect randomly for some reason... For now it seems only about half the people who connect can actually CONNECT, and it doesn't seem to depend on release version or the client at all really. I couldn't reproduce the bug locally either, and since the server doesn't get the crash report we're pretty much fucked until someone can help us out.

C.Brutail wrote:Simple: I just don't really like all the changes in SVN. Though Samual showed me why he thinks these settings are cool, and I have to admit there's fantasy in it, it's just too far from classic Nexuiz. The electro might deserve the change too, the secondary fire is not so spammy, iirc it was something like this around 1.x too. I might revert the RL too, because it doesn't do enough damage imho.

Yes, it is pretty far from old Nexuiz I suppose... Still deciding whether this is a good idea or a bad idea. Well actually, it's far from recent old Nexuiz Some changes are very similar to OLD versions such as in 1.1

lda17h wrote:RL refire rate is slower than before right? This would be fine if the splash damage would at least stay the same imho. The speed has gone up, too.. So this might make for an interesting change in tactics.. Right now it feels a bit overnerfed..

Well, the reason I lowered damage and radius IS because it's faster. The refire change was to prevent spam of a fast and strong weapon. (It also looked a little weird) Perhaps it is a bit nerfed, still have to tweak it more.. Some people complain about the radius being so low that their accuracy with it is much lower than normal, but this is just because they're not used to using guided rockets. (Which are basically a must with this weapon now) On the idea of guided rockets btw, I agree they're gay)) in 2.5.2 balance.. But it's a whole different idea with my balance, so don't kick it before you actually try it. It's kinda like changing your sensitivity from a high value to a low value, it takes time to get used to and even if you're bad at it at first you could end up better in the end.

Flying Steel wrote:

Samual wrote:I would make it like Halo or Sauer, but they both CHEAT with the projectiles for the shotgun... Cheating sucks.

But what does that have to do with refire rates?

Their shotguns and the way they work are entirely different for the most part, and Nexuiz has had this refire time on the shotgun for a very long time and it has worked effectively in the past. I chose this refire because it feels best with the gun in my opinion (It's also the most balanced, giving a very interesting advantage AND disadvantage to using both secondary and primary), maybe if we had different sounds that would be a different story.

Flying Steel wrote:

Samual wrote:Anyway I disagree with making it a pickup as it is not too strong nor too weak to be a spawn weapon.

But it will be again the next time some other weapon is tweaked, or the code behind the shotgun is tweaked (like the recent hitscan > projectile > hitscan shift). And it will always throw things out of control when that happens because it is a starting weapon. And because it is a starting weapon with ammo consumption, that therefore needs to be reasonably powerful to be fair. Also it's a fucking close range weapon, why is the main starting weapon only good in close? This contributes to ranged weapons like the Nex always ending up so imbalanced. Focusing the starting firepower on something versatile like the laser would help level things out on this issue of spawn camping. Plus the starting shotgun is squatting on the close-ranged-powerhouse slot. Most games have a REAL shotgun, a powerful close-in pickup weapon. Preferably one that looks, feels, sounds and plays like some variant of a real shotgun (with some exaggerated spread). Your balance might end up doing a good job of working around these shotgun problems, but it'll still play like a work around. And the next time the arsenal needs to be rebalanced for whatever reason, the starting shotgun will have to be worked around again. There will be more 2.4 and 2.5.2 shotguns again and again and again. Just eliminate this problem for good so our children won't be posting in threads like these some day.

Let me start off by saying complaining that something might be broken by someone in the future is the dumbest thing you could possibly do. EVERYTHING CAN BE BROKEN BY SOMEONE IN THE FUTURE, this is why when you make changes you test them FIRST before committing and even releasing. I was using my own balance on my server and my clan server was using 2.5.1 balance, so I never noticed before the release of 2.5.2. Also, it doesn't need to be very powerful at all just because it has ammo consumption... You spawn with more than enough ammo to last you a while unless you're only using the shotgun, which is not the best of ideas as one of the main things you want to do when you spawn is find a few weapons and stack up. The idea is for the shotgun to allow you to do that without being entirely raped by someone with map control, even if it's inferior to other weapons it's still very useful. It's close BTW because IT'S A SHOTGUN... Again it's only meant to get you out of tight situations so you can get a real weapon. (Other players use it as a quick finisher too, many weapons are good for this but since the shotgun is almost always available it's a very good weapon for doing so) "And the next time the arsenal needs to be rebalanced for whatever reason, the starting shotgun will have to be worked around again." FYI, this happens with almost every version... Actually, it DOES happen with every version with few exceptions. But not just to the shotgun, most weapons get minor tweaks some times when e.g. a weapon is added or removed.. It's called development. I doubt there will be more 2.5.2 shotguns BTW if the community tries builds before release.. There was good testing before, but we released a bit hastily with 2.5.2 and no one was running a 2.5.2 beta server with 2.5.2 balance.

FruitieX wrote:Idea for the laser: Actually make it a *real* laser, as in shoot a red beam similar to a lightningun (of course weaker than that). Secondary mode could still allow for trickjumps if we really have to have that...

Worst idea i've ever heard :X Seriously. :X

Lee_Stricklin wrote:In my opinion a shotgun close to what was in 2.4.2 would work well. The damage rate was a bit lower than what I would have liked, but I think with a slight increase to that it would be balanced for the current version. *Thinks about many times where he has popped somebody up into the air and finished them with a shotty*

Well, mine is fairly similar to it. -- But what when you say a bit low compared to what you would have liked, this is due to broken antilag.

2.4.2 shotgun has 60 force constant, 2.6 has 0 force constant.

Primary for 2.4.2 is 120dps and the spread is 0.08
Primary for 2.6 is 96dps and the spread is 0.11
Secondary for 2.4.2 is 180dpb and spread is 0.12
Secondary for 2.6 is 144dpb and spread is 0.17

Note: AGAIN most of the damage and spread difference is due to the fact that antilag changed, these really are very similar if you account for that. The only real difference is the force changes, but i'm against bullet weapons having force in this game.. I may do very little force eventually though, just because some people kinda want it.

halogene wrote:I most strongly object to the idea to make the primary laser some weird beam of light. This would be ridiculous. Haven't you seen Star Wars? Laser can be shots that travel like projectiles or they can be sticks in a tube. But NOT a weird beam of light.

Besides that, I personally love the laser the way it is, it has been my all-times favorite weapon. Ever since I learned about laser jumping, which is quite some time ago. Also I love to juggle people around with it, especially on space maps.

Since when the hell is nexuiz meant to be realistic?

And since when the hell are we following starwars?

Laser beam primary (weak weapon) For The Win!

/me pats frutiex