Considering that the previous poll on the subject of whether to keep, or fix the recently induced bug, of weapon switching resetting the refire [the time before a weapon can fire once again] time counter, is significantly old, it may not reflect current viewpoints, this poll was created to tally any changes to the communities' decision.

The bug was created unintentionally as a result of allowing weapon 'combos', but consequently the method of resetting the refire counter on weapon switch also allowed shorting the intended refire time on
most of the weapons [ie any weapon with a combined refire/animation time greater than .3 seconds is affected by this exploit, AKA every weapon with the exception of
the Machine Gun, Hagar, and Electro secondary].

Usage of the exploit in this manner has been labelled a bug by the very developer who implemented it, although marked, the decision of what to do about this lies with the community; thus this poll was created in order to decide what happens.

Your possible voting options are:

Fix, remove weapon switching causing refire resetting
Fix, remove weapon switching causing refire resetting on the same weapon
Keep the bug entirely
Neutral/Undecided

Please copy and Bold one of these voting options into your post; also give a short explanation to why you chose your choice; the votes will be tallied below:

Fix, remove weapon switching causing refire resetting
Ares
tZork

Fix, remove weapon switching causing refire resetting on the same weapon
ai
s3cc0
GreEn`mArine
divVerent
torus
C.Brutail
MisterMeister
HumanRemains
mkzelda
FruitieX
Qantourisc

Keep the bug entirely
Ronan
nifrek

Neutral/Undecided
morfar
Dave
nexbender

Fix, remove weapon switching causing refire resetting

OMG, leave the damn thing alone...Geez

Altobe wrote:OMG, leave the damn thing alone...Geez

No.

Fix, remove weapon switching causing refire setting on the same weapon
I already stated why in many threads, don't wanna repeat myself.

Edit: I had actually no idea what the difference was of those two first setting, but it seems as this is the one I want

I'm guessing the first option means "make it so that when switching you have to wait the first weapon's reload time to fire the second" and the second option "remove the Nex switch bug", right?
if so, then
Fix, remove weapon switching causing refire setting on the same weapon

ai wrote:I already stated why in many threads, don't wanna repeat myself

yeah, same here

I'm not sure why you claim it's a bug. Its not. Esteel made this a feature, he was fully aware that one could switch weapons to reduce the reload time by 0.5 sec.
You should have seen a early 2.3 alpha... then you could switch to zero reload time (I made a funny demo at the time)

Neutral/Undecided

morfar wrote:I'm not sure why you claim it's a bug. Its not. Esteel made this a feature, he was fully aware that one could switch weapons to reduce the reload time by 0.5 sec

ok, whatever... i don't like this FEATURE
































.....still, it looks like a bug

s3cc0 wrote:

morfar wrote:.....still, it looks like a bug

That's cause it is. Morfar just began using this exploit so he doesn't want it to go.
But to be sure, let's make another poll:

"Is this Nex-switch to laser-switch to nex, thing a feature or a bug?"
- Yes
- No

lool

Seems I compeltely lost my english. Remove this bug and lower the nex damage down to 75. Correct? And hands off the classic minstagib settins of course.

YESSSS

This really is ridiculous. How is this any different than the laser jumping post? There is no difference. Leave it as is. They've already changed the time you can switch then fire again. If you all knew about previous 2.3 you'd think the current rate of fire is outstanding. Before you could basically do it instantly.

Oh an Yes this needs to be left alone. Its no bug. Everyone can do this just as the can laser jump. Stop trying to call people rail whores too. I know there are way more rocket whores out there than rail whores. What the hell is the big deal anyway...its a damn weapon that you use to frag people. This is a deathmatch game no? The objective is to kill the opponent, yes? Stop getting so worked up over getting fragged by the hardest weapon to use.

Better yet lets just punish all those who have spent a huge amount of work trying to hone a skill...hell why not just make the damn game CS...then everyone will be happye.

This is utterly pathetic....why is no one bitching about how powerful the RL is? That's the weapon that needs to be re worked...oh you want to know why...because everyone and their brother is a ROCKET WHORE!!

Nah. The firerate isn't outstanding. It sucks actually. Be sure, I know enough about the pre 2.3 versions, if you'd know about my older posts concerning the Nexgun settings you'd know who's bitch I am

By now I think the nexgun just had too much damage all the time, it still has. A faster Nexgun with less damage and the same impact would be much more fun for all...

Mr.Carlyle wrote:This is utterly pathetic....why is no one bitching about how powerful the RL is? That's the weapon that needs to be re worked...oh you want to know why...because everyone and their brother is a ROCKET WHORE!!

I agree on this one too. Would be cool if detonated rockets dealt less damage, spidflisk-style
And i'm a mortarwhore tbh
(and a bitchingwhore of course)

Fix, remove weapon switching causing refire setting on the same weapon

(by making each weapon have its own refire count, so one can rapidly fire two different weapons, but doesn't gain speed by changing back to the first one)

^ agree totally with Div.

fix refire rate bug. possibly add a option to have this behavior for those who want it. i think the nexgun should have less refire time as standard. prehaps a *bit* less dmg, not mutch tho. but more ammo drain (as in 2-3 time teh current) and *way* less force. lower teh mg forcea lot to while at it. its buttles not boulders xD individual gun timers sounds nice indeed. this would allow for longer refiretimes in general and more tactics in using the right gun for the job.

Decidedly Neutral
I use the switch-refire because I don't like the timing of the nex. I just do what I must to win.
also, bug reports sure do get emotional here, you girls

Who you calling a girl? I'll slap you! Then tell my mom

Fix, remove weapon switching causing refire setting on the same weapon

In some ways I agree with Mr.Carlyle, this is a deadmatch game, and it should has strong weapons. But mind it, all games have rules. A basic rule in all games is the refire time. A "feature" that lets a player with the right knowledge to play against the default rules is an exploit.

Better yet lets just punish all those who have spent a huge amount of work trying to hone a skill...

Reflecting to this. Sorry, I can't remember everybody in this great community, that who and when joined us, but those who started with 1.0 might remember, that the laser in the beginning had waaaaay less push power and it refired much more faster too.
Esteel and me were the first ones, who tried trick-jumping in nexuiz, and soon we discovered, that the laser is a very neat tool to move around. I was sitting hours before my pc playing the game, looking around maps where to find some neat spots where to perform a trickjump. And I was so happy when I found some and actually I could do them!
And then came 1.2, and suddenly all my work and knowledge was lost, becouse the laser's power got increased, and all my hard work became suddenly soo easy a baby could perform them. I wasn't happy, in fact I was very angry, but things go this way...

Let's face it: Nexuiz is an open source game with a small developer team, and like many other projects like this, much of the decisions of the "now how?" 's are made by it's fan-base. The game is evolving so rapidly, it almost "lives". Monitoring the forums there are 3 mayor issues right now: the "wtf to do with th crylink", the "we need new models" and this one. This one is similar to the crylink in some views: some would like this way, some in the other. The best thing is to wait what the majority wants, and I'm sure the developers will make their decisions in that regard, and I'm pretty sure, that nobody will get angry abuot it.
If the decision is to keep the exploit, I think it's the best to document it in the readme, and include the script too. Imho it distracts some people to use it (I'm sure it would distract me to use another button to run the script while amiming), so it will be the player's choise to use it or not.

There's another way btw to solve this problem: why not lower the second or third shot's damage, document this, and add an extra button for "Nexgun combo", so this could be a feature?

C.Brutail wrote:There's another way btw to solve this problem: why not lower the second or third shot's damage, document this, and add an extra button for "Nexgun combo", so this could be a feature?

Lool, aren't you creative?

@Altobe
This has to be resolved, as it is a day-to-day issue experienced by both the people in front, and behind the Nex [literally]; this problem is also beginning to fracture the Nexuiz community.

@s3cc0
Correct.

@morfar
I can direct you to an old thread '...perfect weapon balancing...' in the 'Nexuiz, Gameplay' board, it is where esteel accuses [or even frames!] DivVerent of implementing the bug, with a log of an SVN revision IIRC; please reread the 3rd sentence again out loud.

@Urmel
First of all, please make clear of what you're voting for, secondly, this poll is deciding what to do about the bug, the fate of Nex will be determined after this poll; Minstagib was much more popular before ai's successful request to increase the Nex refire time, in order to use Minstagib as 'Nex training'.

@Mr.Carlyle
The previous refire time on the Nex was 1300 milliseconds [including animation time], the current one is 1800 milliseconds; however due to DivVerent's weapon switch resetting refire time, it became possible to lower the refire time to 600 milliseconds; the difference, nonetheless, between this and laser-jumps, is that laser-jumps are an ENJOYABLE part of the game.

@tZork
If so, we'll have to redesign the concept of the Nex, currently it is an heavy antimatter/matter particle railcannon, so any changes reflect on the model, and the background behind the Nex; just as the Machine Gun fires [presumably] 12.7 mm rounds in a bullpup configuration [presumably as well], just remember the developers intention to never cut the balls off a weapon [UT style!].

@Dave
Ah, so you've fallen into the group of professional gamers who play to win, I suppose not having equal refire times would put you at a disadvantage, no?

@C.Brutail
Yes, refire time is a basic restriction that shouldn't be avoided, but your method is a bit haphazard because other weapons are affected by this exploit as well.

After replying to mostly everyone's posts, I suggest this: Giving the Nex an alternate fire-mode to satisfy both it's major uses, light at a 1000 millisecond refire, and ~100 damage, and heavy at a 200 millisecond delay, 1800 millisecond refire, and ~200 damage; possibly with an explosion on impact].

TVR wrote:@Urmel
First of all, please make clear of what you're voting for, secondly, this poll is deciding what to do about the bug, the fate of Nex will be determined after this poll; Minstagib was much more popular before ai's successful request to increase the Nex refire time, in order to use Minstagib as 'Nex training'.

Is that ai by any chance me? Cause if so? What the hell are you talking about? I don't recall being the major factor who turned minstagib into what it is (I'm not even sure what the minstagib is set to).

Pretty confused here as well. What do the Minstagib settings have to do with this poll? Minstagib was (and still is) very popular for it's minimalistic, simple and fast gameplay. At least the minsta servers I know have had the same weapon settings they always used to, for years.

When I claimed for a faster refire rate and less damage, I had the standard DM in mind. Pushing the people around with the Nexgun is extremely funny, while being fragged with it in a 1on1 match is quite frustrating generally. May be off topic of course.

I dont use weapon switch for increasing any weapon's refirerate, on the other hand I think it's quite impressible to watch others using it.

After all, you want to know what I'd vote for? I'm undecided.

divVerent wrote:Fix, remove weapon switching causing refire setting on the same weapon

(by making each weapon have its own refire count, so one can rapidly fire two different weapons, but doesn't gain speed by changing back to the first one)

This is exactly what I have in mind, so please add me to the poll.

However, I don't think there should be two fire modes for the nex. In fact I really liked the way you changed all the guns in 2.3, cause it makes the players combine weapons that have not been combined before. In the prior version it was very easy to do a standard nex-shotgun combo. Now that the shotgun's accuracy is lower, nex-mortar and nex-machinegun are much better - BUT you need to collect these weapons before! With nex-shotgun all you had to do was get hold of the nex, so I think this is a big improvement, making the other guns more important.

I also don't understand the "dm games need strong weapons" argument. The nex already IS a very strong weapon - but the exploit makes it absolutely unneccessary to carry any other gun around. The original refire rate makes it possible for people to get away before the next shot will frag them, as long as there is a corner somewhere around. So there are two scenarios:

1. Nex hit - opponent hides away, tension rises cause he might counteract in an original way.

2. Nex hit - opponent tries to escape - combo with another weapon if available.

This is much more exciting and fun than nex-nex-frag, nex-nex-frag, nex-nex-frag, nex-nex-frag, ...

If there is more than one weapon in a game, the goal of development has to be to ensure that all of them make sense and actually are used for winning.

Fix, remove weapon switching causing refire resetting on the same weapon

Presumably the refire rate for a weapon is there because the weapon needs to reload or recharge. I don't think switching to another weapon and back would make it reload or recharge any faster. So, I don't care if we all call it a bug, a feature, an exploit, whatever but just make weapon design consistent again and get rid of it.

Thanks.

I now implemented separate refire counters, and you can try that out on RBI. So the refire time is now a latency imposed by the WEAPON, not by the PLAYER

I found that the following moves could be especially attractive with this change:

Nex -> MG: hit your enemy well with the Nex, immediately switch to MG and add some more shots to completely kill him. This would also work with most other fast weapons, it may even make the Crylink more useful to have.

Nex -> Laser: Run to some open place, shoot someone with the Nex, switch to laser and immediately laser jump out of the crowd

RL <-> Electro: Hold fire and switch between Electro and rocket launcher repeatedly for faster damage

As for other weapons...

Laser - not really useful in a combo, I'd think.
Shotgun - maybe switch to shotgun when an enemy comes too close.
MG - only really makes sense in conjunction with Hagar or Nex (and Hagar-MG was possible before my change too)
Mortar - no other weapon obeys gravity and is slow, so switching to Mortar isn't really attractive to get a higher fire rate.
Electro - as said, makes a good pair with the RL because its primary is also a rocket-like projectile.
Hagar - maybe useful directly after rockets, but as they travel faster than rockets, you could already do this before (you have to wait so your rocket hits first and then the Hagar projectiles)

Also... it allows you to do a funny RL/Laser combo: shoot a rocket, and hit the floor near it with the laser so it changes direction that actually works, but I doubt it can be aimed well... still, a fun way to get rid of a camper by making the rocket change its direction that way

Hey, that sounds nice

BTW, for all of you "It's a feature" and "Doubler nexer can't aim" guys, check this out:

http://www.fileden.com/files/2007/8/21/ ... nexing.avi

Well... AFTER my change, there are surely similar ways to get faster than "allowed" refire, by changing guns... but: you can't fire the SAME gun more often than it's allowed, and it isn't useful in most combinations. Basically, it makes you gain from owning more weapons (like, the RL+Electro example). And aliases surely won't help with that, as HOW you use that new possibility is up to you - I named two examples of possible uses, and surely the main use is "Hurt someone with Nex, finish him off with something else"... but this is now intentional and not a bug any more, and it actually makes sense - the NEX needs to reload, so pack it away, let it reload while you hold something else, and fetch it when it's done reloading

I welcome this change

divVerent wrote:you can try that out on RBI.

On DCC's public servers (plain, tdm, ctf) too.