Oat wrote:The game ITSELF are unrealistic..

If you want realistic games, leave Nexuiz for good, go and play F1 Championship on PS3

Heh, true, but not everyone wants or haves a PS3

Blµb wrote:

MirceaKitsune wrote:(...)
Second, it's firing type is very unrealistic. It's nice to shoot so many rockets like that but it kind of exaggerates the possibilities of any weapon. While bouncing rockets are totally unrealistic too... how can a rocket bounce? And be fired at that rate at the same time?
(...)

Didn't we abandon realism somewhere between mortar jumps and surviving in-the-face rockets?
Seriously, I don't get how ppl can complain about things being unrealistic...

+1

My only real issue with the Hagar is that the secondary firemode doesn't seem terribly fun or useful.

One of my favorite mods that I haven't seen in a hell of a long time was the laser guided rockets.

Perhaps the Hagar firing a cluster of these would be more fun.

Also, Nexuiz doesn't seem to have any weapons that require charging.

It might be interesting if charging it added additional rockets to the cluster.

MirceaKitsune wrote:I think it's easy for anyone to understand when I say something like "it's too similar" in the given context that I am talking about what I see and my point of view. ... If I say "this forum skin looks nice" it's very obvious that's how I'm seeing it and I am stating what I think. ... anyone reading the sentence without trying to make a in-depth technical analysis would understand exactly what I said and meant ...

Assume nothing, not everyone may think as so.

Context sensitivity is to be eliminated whenever possible, implied connotations necessitate avoidable implications.

MirceaKitsune wrote:I couldn't repeat the word "I believe" and "I think" every statement to clear that up. ...

For this reason are forum posts prewritten, rather than real-time.

A post is too time-insensitive, while the average duration too long, to warrent the lack of explict sentences.

kozak6 wrote:My only real issue with the Hagar is that the secondary firemode doesn't seem terribly fun or useful.

True.

kozak6 wrote:One of my favorite mods that I haven't seen in a hell of a long time was the laser guided rockets

Agreed.

Yeah the realism wasn't probably my best notice on the issue. What I meant to say by that is that even for a game like Nexuiz, a gun shooting rockets like that could be a bit exaggerated... that's the idea I had in mind.

Anyway my basic two issues with this weapon are that it's weapon model looks very bad and it's firing types are too similar to most other weapons. So if others agree here maybe that can be changed first.

MirceaKitsune wrote:Yeah the realism wasn't probably my best notice on the issue. What I meant to say by that is that even for a game like Nexuiz, a gun shooting rockets like that could be a bit exaggerated... that's the idea I had in mind.

Anyway my basic two issues with this weapon are that it's weapon model looks very bad and it's firing types are too similar to most other weapons. So if others agree here maybe that can be changed first.

I actually think the haggar looks pretty good, and is pretty well balanced. The crylink needs to be fixed first, if anything.

I disagree with the replacement of the hagar completely; I believe its a great weapon that can be used very well in close quarters. I really dont understand why its even being discussed over the Crylink.

I really dont think removal of the crylink or the hagar is needed. Merely some rebalancing. The hagar is NOT overpowered, if anything its underpowered. This is due in part to its lack of a useful secondary fire, as mentioned earlier I think that the spread would be a good idea instead of bounced fire. I think the crylink may be overpowered but I dont think its overpowered by that much. To balance it I think merely boosting the refire rate or damage per shot of the machine gun, its main competetor. Another solution is to slow crylink refire and maybe make it less ammo efficient.

I personally think flamethrower would be a nice weapon to have (except for the server killing part, there must be a way around this) and would make an interesting 10th weapon, but I dont think its a replacement for the hagar.


If you think the hagar is overpowered I can explain how to easily beat it, if you think its underpowered I can explain how to use it.


Usage: The hagar requires atleast 60 rounds before you can use it as a main weapon.
When you are using the hagar it is best used as a retreating weapon because of its tendency to disorient people being hit directly by it. No other weapon has this effect.
Your best bet while using the hagar is to be defensive.


Defeating it: The hagar is dangerous because of its visual effects. The amount of smole it releases is hard to see through and can thus make it harder to retaliate. However, the amount of smoke can also be bad for the user. If the user of the hagar is on the attack he will be running through the smoke screen while firing and can impare his vision. So if you are being attacked by somone with a hagar your best bet is to be defensive.



This is just my opinion.




P.S.


I've got some spare songs floating around and if anyone needs them I'd be happy to send them to you.

All GPL.

Vermin wrote:Defeating it: The hagar is dangerous because of its visual effects. The amount of smole it releases is hard to see through and can thus make it harder to retaliate. However, the amount of smoke can also be bad for the user. If the user of the hagar is on the attack he will be running through the smoke screen while firing and can impare his vision. So if you are being attacked by somone with a hagar your best bet is to be defensive.

The amount of smoke is not near enough to impair the vision. At least not for me when running low settings on everything. Haven't checked how it is with high quality settings. If it were releasing a smokescreen then I would understand, but this is not the case here.

If you take a couple hagar rounds to the face you have no idea whats going on anymore. If there isnt as much smoke in lower settings then there IS an imbalance.

What i think about weapons:

1. Laser (alt fire mode needed)
2. Shotgun - maybe decrease the spread / or / increase damage and increase spread. One way it becomes trad. shot, other - flack cannon. People use crylink in very close combat -> shotgun is seldom used -> bad.
3. Crylink - rebalance (sec fire became useless, imo).
4. Electro - 1st mode shots should leave blobs of plasma (I liked that )
5. Hagar (prefer mortar or rl over hagar, never use 2nd fire - seems not effective).
6. Mortar (classic, 2nd is useless, it takes too long for detonation, i can't personally kill anyone with it),
7. RocketLauncher (2nd fire shoudln't be left empty, i would like smth what flack cannon 2nd fire did).
8. Nex (just renamed railgun, classic).

I would like a mellee weapon. It wouldn't be very affective in Nexuiz (mellee weapons were never effective in fps), but some mappers could create airfighting maps. I think it would be fun. Div0 suggested personal teleporter instead of mellee weapon and I also agree with that.

Oh, and i forgot Machinegun. This is good for me except new model is needed. Something more "phuturistic". Same for shot and several others.

Here's what I noticed on the Hagar; If someone skilled enough shoots you with it, you can eventually be down in just a few shots. Of course that's the case with a few other weapons too, but with the Hagar it's much easier. Only thing that keeps you from destroying everything with it is fast dropping ammo. You might also get covered in a cloud of smoke and not see anything any more when shot with it.

The way high damage is done is by shooting the numerous rockets at the opponent's feet on the floor near them, not towards him / her. When you do that the explosion most likely damages the opponent, and there is an explosion guaranteed near the victim rather then shooting the gun directly towards them and having a chance to miss. That's how I manage to take down opponents easily with the Hagar unless the blast throws them somewhere where I loose them before they die.

MirceaKitsune wrote:...

Hooray, you have invented splash damage!

Vermin wrote:If you take a couple hagar rounds to the face you have no idea whats going on anymore. If there isnt as much smoke in lower settings then there IS an imbalance.

The sheer range of computer hardware utilized and the lack of obscurity thusly of the open-source nature of Nexuiz, does not permit the usage visual effects to balance gameplay.

MirceaKitsune wrote:Here's what I noticed on the Hagar; If someone skilled enough shoots you with it, you can eventually be down in just a few shots. Of course that's the case with a few other weapons too, but with the Hagar it's much easier. Only thing that keeps you from destroying everything with it is fast dropping ammo. You might also get covered in a cloud of smoke and not see anything any more when shot with it.

The way high damage is done is by shooting the numerous rockets at the opponent's feet on the floor near them, not towards him / her. When you do that the explosion most likely damages the opponent, and there is an explosion guaranteed near the victim rather then shooting the gun directly towards them and having a chance to miss. That's how I manage to take down opponents easily with the Hagar unless the blast throws them somewhere where I loose them before they die.

TVR wrote:All of Nexuiz' weapons could potentially kill a newly spawned player in at least 3 seconds, if all weapon fire hit the target.

Of course for all weapon fire to hit, the target must be predictable, standing still or moving in straight lines is a very common cause of quick, easy frags.

The Hagar may possess the second highest DPS, but suffers from numerous drawbacks, such as the lowest damage per unit of ammunition, little splash in respect to other rocket weapons, and significant impairment in the engagement of targets not lower than the shooter, or most commonly, laser-jumpers.

Nexuiz is three dimensional, players possess the ability to move on the third [vertical] axis as well, be it by the integrated jump function, or laser-jumps.

Laser-jumps ARE factored into weapon balance, for that reason does the laser hold 'last weapon' as a fire mode, as to ease quick laser-jumps.

If the Hagar is most effective for floor-bound targets... let it be so, there is no need to simplify Nexuiz for anyone who does not use the jump function.

____________________________________________

Alien wrote:What i think about weapons:

1. Laser (alt fire mode needed)

7. RocketLauncher (2nd fire shoudln't be left empty, i would like smth what flack cannon 2nd fire did).

The laser's alt-fire returns you to the gun you were previously using, a very handy ability when you are in the heat of battle, laserjumping and avoiding fire from others.

The Rocket Launcher's alt-fire is used to detonate the rocket in mid-air at any time, also a very useful ability. In laser-guided missile mode, clicking the alt-fire button toggles the laser that the rocket aims for.

For previously used wpn quick key can be used, like in quick weapon switching.
Rl 2nd fire mode does nothing itself, only blows up the rocket AFTER 1st mode was used. Now if you haven't already launched rocket with 1st fire mode, you could use new rl 2nd fire mode.
Laser guided missile mode is a mutator. It's not on on most CTF and (T)DM servers.

One of the threads showing the shotgun problem:
http://forums.alientrap.local/viewtopic.php?t=3375

If we say that Nexuiz wpns are based on Q3, then shotgun in Q3 was very good wpn.

Alien wrote:For previously used wpn quick key can be used, like in quick weapon switching. ...

The assignment of that function to the laser allows it to be context-sensitive, easily accessible when most needed, without dedicating a key toward doing so.

____________________________________________

Alien wrote:Rl 2nd fire mode does nothing itself, only blows up the rocket AFTER 1st mode was used. Now if you haven't already launched rocket with 1st fire mode, you could use new rl 2nd fire mode.

Simplicity is a principle of Nexuiz, assigning two functions to a single attack key would contravene such principle.

____________________________________________

Alien wrote:If we say that Nexuiz wpns are based on Q3, then shotgun in Q3 was very good wpn.

They are not limited to solely Quake 3 Arena, anything suitable to a run-and-gun shooter may be used, namely certain weapon fire modes from the entire Quake & Unreal Tournament series.

Nexuiz' primary shotgun fire mode is of the original Quake shotgun, secondary fire mode is similar to the Quake super shotgun, in terms of damage, spread, refire time, and ammunition consumed.

____________________________________________

Blµb wrote:Didn't we abandon realism somewhere between mortar jumps and surviving in-the-face rockets?

Was that before or after air-control? ^^

MirceaKitsune wrote:Anyway, yesterday in an online game I noticed a 5th issue with this weapon; It can be used to frag people much too quickly and easily (not an insta-frag either of course but still). Someone easily shot towards me and covered me with it and I was down, so it's probably too much of a strong weapon too.

Hmm.. ever been shot with the nex? In most cases, a single hit will kill you.

kozak6 wrote:My only real issue with the Hagar is that the secondary firemode doesn't seem terribly fun or useful.

It's good for shooting around corners.

Of course, Nexuiz has several weapons that can do that.

Alien wrote:What i think about weapons:

1. Laser (alt fire mode needed)

Alt fire mode switches back to prev weapon. I'd hate to lose that. Seriously. The "laser" needs a new name though. What it does has absolutely nothing to do with lasers. I'd like to call it an "impulse gun" or something.

2. Shotgun - maybe decrease the spread / or / increase damage and increase spread. One way it becomes trad. shot, other - flack cannon. People use crylink in very close combat -> shotgun is seldom used -> bad.

How about replacing it with a baseball bat? No range, but packs a huge wallop (one hit = kill?) at very close range — at least from behind. Yes, players get close enough to do that. I know I do. Has to be a relatively slow weapon though.

3. Crylink - rebalance (sec fire became useless, imo).

Bounce made the primary attack useful. Alt fire is useful at a distance. Still not my fav weapon though.

4. Electro - 1st mode shots should leave blobs of plasma (I liked that )

Kinda like it the way it is now.

5. Hagar (prefer mortar or rl over hagar, never use 2nd fire - seems not effective).

Not my favorite weapon, but I don't mind it. It is kinda blah though.

6. Mortar (classic, 2nd is useless, it takes too long for detonation, i can't personally kill anyone with it),

Suggestions for the alt trigger: 1) Fires a dozen bouncy nades at the same time. Beware of lag (and yes, I like spammy weapons ). 2) Fires sticky nade; instead of exploding on impact, it just sits where it hits until enemy gets too close. BOOM. Also detonates up if too close to other sticky nades. Electro bolts also make it blow up. Blow up regardless after x minutes.

7. RocketLauncher (2nd fire shoudln't be left empty, i would like smth what flack cannon 2nd fire did).

Alt fire isn't empty; it makes the rocket blow up. That's a very very useful trigger.

8. Nex (just renamed railgun, classic).

I would like a mellee weapon.

Yeah; like a baseball bat..

IMHO the devs should avoid signature weapons from other games. No light-sabers or BFGs or such. Keep nex unique and develop signature weapons that are unique to this game instead — such as the "laser".

TVR wrote:They are not limited to solely Quake 3 Arena, anything suitable to a run-and-gun shooter may be used, namely certain weapon fire modes from the entire Quake & Unreal Tournament series.

Nexuiz' primary shotgun fire mode is of the original Quake shotgun, secondary fire mode is similar to the Quake super shotgun, in terms of damage, spread, refire time, and ammunition consumed.

Did you Ever try to go with sg versus nex in close combat? Both sg sec and nex should kill you in one successful shot. Still sg user is dead because sg secondary second and third shot takes time to come out, while nex kills you immediately. With sg you could kill people in quake, haven't seen anyone effective with it in Nexuiz. Don't forget that in Nexuiz players have more hp than in Quake + regeneration, so same damage does not work.

Alien wrote:

TVR wrote:They are not limited to solely Quake 3 Arena, anything suitable to a run-and-gun shooter may be used, namely certain weapon fire modes from the entire Quake & Unreal Tournament series.

Nexuiz' primary shotgun fire mode is of the original Quake shotgun, secondary fire mode is similar to the Quake super shotgun, in terms of damage, spread, refire time, and ammunition consumed.

Did you Ever try to go with sg versus nex in close combat? Both sg sec and nex should kill you in one successful shot. Still sg user is dead because sg secondary second and third shot takes time to come out, while nex kills you immediately. With sg you could kill people in quake, haven't seen anyone effective with it in Nexuiz. Don't forget that in Nexuiz players have more hp than in Quake + regeneration, so same damage does not work.

i feel you are missing something here - area of affect. I often kill nex, or even rl wilding players with the shotty. it has enough spread to require little aiming while still doing decent+ dmg. the trick for me is to stay far enough away to allow decent movement (and in the case of rl/electro/gl, enough to avoid most of the splash) and close enough to make precise aim difficult. also firing the primary a few times first then moving in a bit closer and firing the secondary (it has wider spread) will upp your success allot.

The nex OTOH hits or misses on a pinhead sized surface. and it has no alternate fire mode for backup either. ofcourse if you do (get) hit it does a chunk of dmg, but anyone who tried to hit a fast moving target at close range knows that's not exactly easy.

Oh and dont confuse the shottys theoretical maximum dmg with its effective. you have to be at.... "personal distance" to hit with all the pellets. you will have to work for it, but it IS worth it.[/list]

kozak6 wrote:My only real issue with the Hagar is that the secondary firemode doesn't seem terribly fun or useful.

Therefore I suggest that tZork's mod is integrated into Nexuiz.

In his mod the secondary hagar shoots a series of shots and if the first hits a target the following shots will automatically target the victim.

The only chance for the victim to get rid of the other bullets is to let them crash into a wall.

Sigh...

So the Hagar is too powerful because you get killed with it. Well, learn to avoid it and defend yourself. I would say it is the weapon I am killed LEAST by. It also is not a rapid fire rocket launcher. The spash and damage are FAR less than a rocket. Of course some weapons are more powerful than others...that's the point. Do you want them all to be the same power as the laser gun? That would be awful. Some will blow you to bits in one shot, some will take several shots and some are hard to kill anyone with at all (like the shotgun). That's the point of having several weapons. The Hagar is also a visual feast and one of the weapons that is very unique to Nexuiz. Taking it out would suck, to put it lightly IMO.

Like someone else said, if you don't like it, make custom maps without it. If the gameplay without it is truly better as you say it would be, people would surely adopt your maps. I have a feeling that wouldn't happen though.

IMO only two weapon changes need to be made. First, the Crylink needs be be slightly nerfed IMO. I emphasize SLIGHT. Second, the shotgun needs more power. It really is completely useless as it currently stands. All IMO of course.

BTW...I think it would be very cool to add a weapon that can be shot like a rocket, and then when the secondary is hit (while in flight), it spray projectiles in every direction. It would be like a room clearance weapon. Shoot it through a doorway and then detonate. Proximity mines and remote mines would also be a very cool addition.

tZork wrote:
i feel you are missing something here - area of affect. I often kill nex, or even rl wilding players with the shotty. it has enough spread to require little aiming while still doing decent+ dmg. the trick for me is to stay far enough away to allow decent movement (and in the case of rl/electro/gl, enough to avoid most of the splash) and close enough to make precise aim difficult. also firing the primary a few times first then moving in a bit closer and firing the secondary (it has wider spread) will upp your success allot.

The nex OTOH hits or misses on a pinhead sized surface. and it has no alternate fire mode for backup either. ofcourse if you do (get) hit it does a chunk of dmg, but anyone who tried to hit a fast moving target at close range knows that's not exactly easy.

Oh and dont confuse the shottys theoretical maximum dmg with its effective. you have to be at.... "personal distance" to hit with all the pellets. you will have to work for it, but it IS worth it.

Yeah, YOU kill players which are wielding nex. You don't mention the quality of the players. It easy for you cause you KNOW how to play while most of the nexers are new players which camp. Close combat zoom. Now in real close combat you're dead with sg against GOOD nex user. anyway, haven't seen you making 20 kill spree with sg.

tZork has vaporized ^RAlien, tZork has made 20 frags in a row

Now the problem lies there:
If both players shoot at the same time being close to each other. nex user wins. Why? Just because sg sec fire doesn't shoot when you're dead. Both weapons are hitscan weapons.


Back to original question, the problem with hagar and crylink is not that they are powerful or smth, but because you don't need to skill to use them. In addition, they seriously IMPAIR vision and in tightly packed environment like hydronex it becomes annoying to play.
Anyway, div0 fixed crylink and made it less spam weapon. HUGE thanks. I would agree wiht following hagar rockets but they shouldn't be able to change direction very much. Will be a very good weapon against campers.

Alt fire mode switches back to prev weapon. I'd hate to lose that. Seriously. The "laser" needs a new name though. What it does has absolutely nothing to do with lasers. I'd like to call it an "impulse gun" or something.

I'll repeat. You can use additional key on your mouse or keyboard. No need to use sec fire for things, which can be achieved in other ways. Sec fire could be used for more innovative movement, kamikaze, shield, whatever you would want. Personally I find sec laser fire - prev weapon is simply an affection.

Alt fire isn't empty; it makes the rocket blow up. That's a very very useful trigger.

What I've said previously is sec fire without firstly releasing rocket primary fire. Sole sec fire could release huge slow rocket in arc format, similarly to flackcannon sec fire in UT. Nothing will change in sec fire when you've already used prim fire and released a rocket.

How about replacing it with a baseball bat? No range, but packs a huge wallop (one hit = kill?) at very close range — at least from behind. Yes, players get close enough to do that. I know I do. Has to be a relatively slow weapon though.

Melee weapon should be introduced on is own and not replace sg. I don't care how it would look like, more like how it will work in game. Be it baseball bat, saber, ninja sword, tazer. Replacing sg is a bad idea.

Alien wrote:Yeah, YOU kill players which are wielding nex. You don't mention the quality of the players. It easy for you cause you KNOW how to play while most of the nexers are new players which camp. Close combat zoom. Now in real close combat you're dead with sg against GOOD nex user. anyway, haven't seen you making 20 kill spree with sg.

tZork has vaporized ^RAlien, tZork has made 20 frags in a row

Of course it's a lot harder to get a killing spree of 20 with the shotgun compared to the nex. For such obvious reasons that I'm not even gonna bring them up.
Making this statement adds no weight, it has nothing to do with anything, thus rendering it totally useless.

The Crylink is almost but perfect now. Playing on Greens and I believe Lazy Dog too, you notice how well accustomed it has become. It's not too powerful but yet it's still very useful in certain situations.
Before you almost couldn't get away from a Crylinker, and way back you couldn't get stuck in a Crylinker both of those situations are no linger an issue.

Shotgun is also very good. I kill people left and right with it. I'm happy that you're able to spawn with such a good weapon. Unlike Quake 3 spawn weapon.

Im not talking abt clueless nubbz. spend some time and learn to use the shotty, its super for close combat, no bull. if i had the stamina for it i could dig out countless examples from my demos where i kill skilled ppl wilding nex's. also. it IS a starter weapon, the nex is a "power weapon". if anything the nex should be more powerful in comparison

The hagar is a fancy ammo pick-up as far as im concerned. i tried, i really did, to get used to this one but i just cant make effective use of it. nor do i think i ever seen anyone do. sure its dmg/sec is high and you can gib a cornered dood or some poor nub with it fast enough. but in "real combat" the only thing its good for is spamming out a stand-off barrier. And yes it hurts visibility (for both the victim and the would be victor) allot.

Now with that said, next release will be able to support more then the 9 old guns. so there no need to remove one to add another.

Sweet moar gunz!