Nah, i suppose i'll need to record demos to show how sg is a weak wpn. I'll be quiet about it until then.

I like both weapons.

Newbies: please do not come on here demanding the removal of this or that.
This is an opensource game. You can disable them on your OWN SERVER if you hate these weapons so much, or make a mod.

Don't come in here demanding everyone bend to you please.

Clueless Newbie wrote:

MirceaKitsune wrote:Anyway, yesterday in an online game I noticed a 5th issue with this weapon; It can be used to frag people much too quickly and easily (not an insta-frag either of course but still). Someone easily shot towards me and covered me with it and I was down, so it's probably too much of a strong weapon too.

Hmm.. ever been shot with the nex? In most cases, a single hit will kill you.

He's unhappy he got killed. He want's the devs to fix the "bug" that his player isn't immortal.

take_this_cup_of_poison wrote:He's unhappy he got killed. He want's the devs to fix the "bug" that his player isn't immortal.

Honestly, no. This weapon is so rare on most maps that I only remember getting killed with it a few times since I play. If that weapon can kill me easily it means I can also use it to easily kill others (as I stated I have). I simply put up the idea because I thought it may be better off to change it with something else which could be a bit more different.

If such a large part of the community is closed minded to new suggestions and can't listen to someone proposing a change and saying what they believe, I'm sorry for bringing the idea up and feel free to close the topic. I initially thought that like other open projects people like hearing new ideas and debating changes, but I was probably wrong it seems.

Other open projects? Oh you mean GNOME. They love removing things, features, etc there!
I use the crylink in many of the maps I make. In some it's one of only 2 weapons available.

Why do you want to break my maps? That's not very open of you. It's like closed and hatread-ish!

MirceaKitsune wrote:If such a large part of the community is closed minded to new suggestions and can't listen to someone proposing a change and saying what they believe, I'm sorry for bringing the idea up and feel free to close the topic. I initially thought that like other open projects people like hearing new ideas and debating changes, but I was probably wrong it seems.

Well, just because it's 'open' doesn't mean that it should accept every suggestion that comes it's way. That'll only destroy the package.
Besides, if only 1 guy wants to change something, and 10 other are against it, it kinda speaks for itself. Now I'm not saying you're the only one who want to change/remove the Hagar, but I see more people wanting it than removing it.

You can now remove weapons from your server by cvar:

g_weaponreplace_6 "0" - removes the crylink
g_weaponreplace_6 "5 7" - changes crylink into (randomly) electro and nex (make sure you keep them in the same ammo class, as mappers often place ammo near weapons)
g_weaponreplace_6 "" - makes crylink behave normally again

This works with all weapons.

That's all you will get - we will not REMOVE a weapon from the game. Especially now that there are 13 weapon slots free.

I meant "open" to new suggestions, both about putting in something new and / or removing or changing something old. Changing something does not always mean doing a tragedy to that project, some changes often bring in something better then what previously was. I also thought that because the game is still under a development where not everything is added and completely decided yet, things like the weapon set, firing types, etc. can still be discussed and changed.

And yes there are projects where if someone disagrees with an idea they just say it nicely and if a developer disagrees they close the issue ticket saying why the request can't or shouldn't be done (which I find the best way of working on a project and how I try to do it). I didn't suggest this change to ruin or brake anything either, I simply thought a better weapon could be placed and wanted to see if others agree with me on that (though yeah I should have probably rather named the topic "should weapon X be changed"). If not then it's fine and if everyone believes its a bad idea I will listen to their opinion and if they're right I will agree my idea was bad, but theres no need to get that frustrated since no one is going to hack the development and remove it if everyone else doesn't want to.

And thanks divVerent, that's useful to know. Anyway can a mod close this topic since it doesn't seem to be going anywhere pretty much and it only seems to get people more upset.

hmm I do not quite understand why people are so grumpy about ideas to change something in Nexuiz here - where could the community discuss potential improvements if not here?

Anyway, my two cents are that indeed I agree the hagar could use some tweaking. But actually I think this is not because the hagar is too powerful. I rarely get hit with it, I rarely see advanced players making use of it and I myself usually treat it as rocket launcher/mortar ammo only. Of course, if you happen to meet someone cornered it is very VERY handy, but since I very seldom have the luck to meet someone there I didn't even care to assign a specific bind to it.

I really like the idea of the homing projectiles - but somehow there has to be a specific benefit of both primary and alternate firing mode. So simply adding the homing functionality would lead to people using secondary firemode only. Maybe that could be achieved if the homing fire mode used double ammo? On the other hand the primary fire mode uses a lot of ammo already. But then again I feel IF you manage to hit with the hagar, the damage dealt is quite high so that would be ok for me.

A flamethrower would be great too, maybe with a secondary fire that sprays unlit gasoline that you can light afterwards and that burns a short while on the target/wall/floor *dream*

As for the Crylink, don't forget it got reasonably tweaked already in svn version which will develop into the next release.

Yes the crylink got better in one of the latest builds and now the primary fire mode also reflects into the opposite wall making a double chance of damage.

Anyway, maybe the hagar isn't that powerful so that point could go away if my notice on that was exaggerated, though otherwise I still think its one of the strongest weapons in the game if you know how to use it. And yes there is the ammo problem too, it eats the entire ammo very quickly.

I kept thinking more about this so I thought to post here again rather then make another topic. I agree now that the hagar's primary fire is useful and good so far and should stay unchanged, but as I kept playing I noticed no one uses the alternative fire at all including me who hardly even thought about using it. The reflecting rockets are of no use in most cases from what I seen... they may technically help with hitting someone around cornets but that's impossible even for an expert and the crylink has reflecting shots now either way. I personally believe that at least the alt fire should be changed to something else, so I thought to post in another idea for debate:

I was wondering if the alt fire on the hagar would do better off loading multiple rockets when you hold it down, then releasing them when you let go of the button. Nexuiz currently has no weapon with hold-and-load-then-release firing, so maybe one wouldn't be that bad instead of an unused firing type. When pressing and holding the alt fire, 3, 4, 5 or 6 rockets would be loaded into the weapon after a few seconds (the more you'd hold before you release the many rockets it has time to load), then keep them like that as much as you want. Then, when you see an enemy, you release the alt fire and all the rockets spray forward like a shotgun. Just what the primary fire on the rocket launcher in UT classic does, just that they could stay there until you release the alt fire button (or not if its better they auto-release when it loads the max).

So what do you think about that? Maybe a holding-type firing mode for a weapon in the game cold be very nice. And once again I'm not saying "that's how it must be like" just putting the idea up for debate and questions so yeah, what do you think? I personally would really like to see this weapon doing something more useful that can be used more often into the game...

MirceaKitsune wrote:I kept thinking more about this so I thought to post here again rather then make another topic. I agree now that the hagar's primary fire is useful and good so far and should stay unchanged, but as I kept playing I noticed no one uses the alternative fire at all including me who hardly even thought about using it. The reflecting rockets are of no use in most cases from what I seen... they may technically help with hitting someone around cornets but that's impossible even for an expert and the crylink has reflecting shots now either way. I personally believe that at least the alt fire should be changed to something else, so I thought to post in another idea for debate:

I was wondering if the alt fire on the hagar would do better off loading multiple rockets when you hold it down, then releasing them when you let go of the button. Nexuiz currently has no weapon with hold-and-load-then-release firing, so maybe one wouldn't be that bad instead of an unused firing type. When pressing and holding the alt fire, 3, 4, 5 or 6 rockets would be loaded into the weapon after a few seconds (the more you'd hold before you release the many rockets it has time to load), then keep them like that as much as you want. Then, when you see an enemy, you release the alt fire and all the rockets spray forward like a shotgun. Just what the primary fire on the rocket launcher in UT classic does, just that they could stay there until you release the alt fire button (or not if its better they auto-release when it loads the max).

So what do you think about that? Maybe a holding-type firing mode for a weapon in the game cold be very nice. And once again I'm not saying "that's how it must be like" just putting the idea up for debate and questions so yeah, what do you think? I personally would really like to see this weapon doing something more useful that can be used more often into the game...

If they reflected twice they would be more useful. As it stands now, with 1 hagar reflection, unless you are firing into a complete box of a room, the reflection bounces the item 1 more meter and than it hits a wall and blows up.

As it is now, the it's not too useful (though I have used it to destroy people standing behind firing holes in castles)

take_this_cup_of_poison wrote:
If they reflected twice they would be more useful. As it stands now, with 1 hagar reflection, unless you are firing into a complete box of a room, the reflection bounces the item 1 more meter and than it hits a wall and blows up.

As it is now, the it's not too useful (though I have used it to destroy people standing behind firing holes in castles)

I think you are on the right track, but how about if each projectile from the secondary fire Hagar is assigned a random number of bounces from 1 to 5. Some bounce once, some bounce twice, and so on. This would effectively turn it into a room clearance weapon, spraying the whole room with explosives when shot through a doorway for example.

I might have an idea!
I agree Hagar is neat for a while, but it is kinda out of place in a close game. I realize that most mods die out after a while, but I think this might be worth trying.

Well I read that some people were gonna do something about a melee attack, but
I think we all agree the average fps melee weapon won't fit into Nexuiz game-play;
Maybe there is some way to fit melee in if we made it special ( lol @ the word 'special' );
I just can't think of it right now though

Well in the meantime I know that I love blasting people away with the weak little laser, except it kinda sucks because its hard to aim just for one stupid push away.

But the flame thrower ideas you guys said (plus me playing halo 3 for the fourth time ever last weekend) inspired me for this new weapon idea:

a 'Gravity Shotgun'

My idea for the Grav Shotgun is that it blows people away very strongly (like a force push effect) with slightly weaker than average damage
The catch is it is short range. I suppose it should only be effectve up to about 2 players' heights for example.

*It should have a very wide shot, so it is hard to miss at all if somebody is in near you in front of you. Maybe even some peripherial range. But only when up close, ya know?

* Maybe it could double as like a 'super' laser-boost for extra high jumping.

* Maybe the secondary fire could be like the default laser in nexuiz ( a long thin range but a much stronger physical push since it is a pick up ) but again a bit less damage just to make it different.

Anyways, In my opinion this would make the slightly awkward melee range battles in Nexuiz much more fun.

Any suggestions? Volunteers? I would get to work on a beta version, but have no clue where to start, I just know basic blender modeling and some weak HTML lol nothing like scripts for Q3-ish stuff tho.

Well my mom said it was a good idea anyways.
She believes in it
Maybe you will too?

On a smaller and simpler ( but possibly more practical ) note...

I got another idea!
Ok I'm sorry, but once again I was just now inspired both by what some of you guys suggested, and a popular console game. I really feel this one is a must, but feel free to chew me out if you disagree (lol jk)
Lemme c if you get the idea from hints

Megaman

Laser

Charge

Megaman

laser

hold click....

charge....

big shot !!!

full charge

megaman

pacman

Ok ok ok Im jk bout the pacman
But do you get it now?

I think we need to make the starting laser just charge up while you hold down the fire button.
This would definitely add some more dimension to the game, adds a tad more more strategy.
I realize that nexuiz already has some form of strategy other than point and shoot,
but at the same time, first realize that this was employed into a NES game way long ago when video games were still digital mazes with blocky graphics and Japanese midi soundtracks. (Which I still love)

*Maybe it doesnt have to make the laser more harmful, but just give it bigger shot and therefore a bigger collision box to increase hit ratio a bit.

*Or maybe it could stay the same size, and increase in damage. It could just change color or something like that to symbolize some increase in damage.

Most likely the best would be a little of both.

This doesnt have to be some drastic huge elephant-sized ball of energy with a 1-hit-KO damage; I think an almost subtle increase in damage and collision size limited by reasonable maximum charge would satisfy everybody's strategy cravings while keeping game balance intact.

Again I think a charging laser would be a nice simple addition that could be kept without harming the balance of the game, while making it a bit more fun for when you run out of freakin rockets. lol

Once again... any volunteers?

It would make laser jumps work totally different... so most people will hate it.

divVerent wrote:It would make laser jumps work totally different... so most people will hate it.

What? why? They could use the laser jump just the same.
All it would do is give you an opportunity to charge if you want.
Once again, like the megaman laser, only charges if you hold it down.
I still think it would add a lot to the game without harming it.

Lets pretend I'm a baker who makes famous cookies. Chocolate chip are the most renowned but my other cookies are just as good... in their respective flavor areas, You've become my apprentice and before you even learn how or why I bake the cookies the way I do, you try applying your kraft earned baking knowledge to my recipes. Removing the salt from the oatmeal raisin and replacing it with more sugar because ~you think~ the cookies need to be sweeter without first considering why I, the baker have crafted the recipe as such.

As the baker, I would respect the apprentice who learned my practice before trying to alter it based on preconceptions brought with them from previous baking experience. I'm not saying they shouldn't use their skills earned from other experiences but rather learn to understand my 'culture' before trying to impose their believes unto me. A demand and a discussion are two different things.

The apprentice: "I understand what you're going for with the salt but I think they need a little more sweetness. Can we try adding sugar?"
The baker: "Well, I see where you're going with the sugar, but I think that sort of sweet is a little too cold, we need something that'll give that oatmeal warmth. How does brown sugar with a dash of cinnamon sound?"
The apprentice: "Wow, that sounds tasty, I'd say it's worth a shot!"

The cookies have a very delicate balance.

So... ehh where's the cream filling? J/k

Um well I didn't exactly remove any salt from your cookies just yet, Mr. Baker.
Those are your cookies after all.

Its more like I asked all of the baker friends I know what it would be like to try implementing a certain spice in a new cookie that I personally did enjoy growing up. I wanted to know what those cooks thought about it.

When the Baker master found out about this idea, he found it upsetting that the new apprentice thought that he knew better about cookie recipes than he did.

After all, his cookies are world famous.

Under what credentials did the apprentice deliver this suggestion to the baker?

I think a charging laser would be a nice simple addition that could be kept without harming the balance of the game.

This shows me you didn't take the time to learn and understand the recipe. This claim is a false and under-informed opinion.

The laser is the staple of movement in the game. Many maps cater to specific laser jumps (see flag carrier thread about 70% reduction breaking some maps). Timing, force and damage will drastically affect gameplay as we know it.

This is why the apprentice must understand why the famous cookies have salt before adding too much sugar to ~balance them out~. We can be left with little dough in the ratio and sugar isn't what makes these cookies famous.

It is balance. Something an experienced baker knows better than the apprentice.

Asomething: If you want it then code it. This is not a closedcommercial game where you can't change things. It is opensource and built by volenteers. If you want something go and volenteer to code it and code it. It can be then made and option (nexuiz has thousands).

You should take a look at the source. It might be a good option (and option is the key) to have.

Seriously: Nex needs more devs. Nex needs YOU to code.

take_this_cup_of_poison wrote:Asomething: If you want it then code it. This is not a closedcommercial game where you can't change things. It is opensource and built by volenteers. If you want something go and volenteer to code it and code it. It can be then made and option (nexuiz has thousands).

You should take a look at the source. It might be a good option (and option is the key) to have.

Seriously: Nex needs more devs. Nex needs YOU to code.

@ take this cup of poison:
I agree I just dont know how to code. I would take the time to find out if there are no devs for this one but I was just posting this since it seemed like a whole thread of people were interested in trying to change the hagar to something else. Like u said im not forcing this on nexuiz i just was wondering if anyone wanted to try it, cuz i would need to learn how to code n all first.

@ Z:
for the third time, Z, I don't wish to change the primary function of the laser.
I want to add it as an option, so you could still fire laser as normal if u wished to, or charge if you wish. if it made u feel better, we could try it just as a alt fire for laser.
Omg lose yur ego Z i dont care who the heck u think u are were all jus gamers wanting to try crap out on an open engine.

Aldius wrote:@ Z:
for the third time, Z, I don't wish to change the primary function of the laser.

Aldius wrote:I think we need to make the starting laser just charge up while you hold down the fire button.

Sounds like you were trying to "enhance" or change the primary fire. I'm not sure where you're getting the number three from.

Aldius wrote:I want to add it as an option, so you could still fire laser as normal if u wished to, or charge if you wish. if it made u feel better, we could try it just as a alt fire for laser.

The fact of the matter is this change will affect the physics of the game. Patronizing me isn't going to help me agree with your argument.

Aldius wrote:Omg lose yur ego Z i dont care who the heck u think u are were all jus gamers wanting to try crap out on an open engine.

I think you're taking the critique too personal. I as a Nexuiz gamer, am trying to defend the staple of movement in the game. It's like going to the horse track and replacing horses with cheetahs. It might sound cool and look cool but it can break a lot of other things.

When you say "crap out on an engine" I picture a guy taking a dump on the motor of his car, hehe.


Half baked thoughts may very well warrant a discussion but don't think that then will indefinitely make them into the game. If you think I have an ego, you should check yourself. You come in here guns blaring, suggesting ideas from the seat of your pants and failing to take criticism from people who have been involved in this game for a long time.

I'm trying to explain to you how to pitch your ideas to get them into the game and the current downfalls of your laser idea. I never said I didn't like it or it wouldn't be fun. It's important to understand and respect the community if you want your ideas to make it into the game.

I didn't mean to sound like I was getting personal, my bad.
I am just a bit frustrated because I just want to experiment with new things on this game and intended to ask people for their help (if anybody is interested) without getting experts telling me that I don't know about the significance of laser travel and the precision of the game's balance.

Aldius wrote:...but feel free to chew me out if you disagree (lol jk)...

Ooops
Lol, well I was joking; I only intend to talk about what this what this could add to the game
Not that I am ignoring the possibility of its changing of certain aspects of the game, but would like to dare see if they would be good or bad for the game play.
I don't mean to sound like I hate criticism, I know that general ideas like these need criticism. But I understand what this could do and am willing to play around with it.
Maybe other people wanna try it too.

I'm not trying to ruin Nexuiz;
If you truly think that my ideas for the Gravity shotgun or for charging the starting laser or other things like these will hurt the intricate balance of the game as it stands, then you can ignore it all you want:
Just don't vote for it,
don't support it,
don't help it,
don't play servers that might host it, if it ever works out. (God willing)

I don't mind. If everybody that plays Nexuiz agrees with you, then I will get it the message, and the ideas wont ever leave my head or this forum. I promise.
But don't tell me that I don't realize how badly I am going to ruin an open source game. Thats pretty ridiculous.

[-z-] wrote:When you say "crap out on an engine" I picture a guy taking a dump on the motor of his car, hehe.

Ok thats just plain hilarious. Rofl
I didn't mean it to read like that, glad it did tho, lol.

Sorry again if I came off too strongly, since I am only a newb after all.
I just see a bunch of ideas up on this page, and I felt that these ones here were at least as helpful and as well thought out as most of them were.

That all being said, if anyone has any ideas to launch off of this one, or anybody wants to help start working on this stuff, email me at mnproduction[/size]s@mac.com[/size]

I do kinda like the sound of this idea, believe it or not. As Aldius said, this won't break (depending how you see it) the movement with the laser, only 'enhance' or add to it. That itself is left up to speculating if it breaks or not, the laser movement.

Anyway, it does sound like a nice idea, but I don't think if the majority of regular players will ever support it. (I'm a regular and old player myself). But I know nothing of coding or anything like that so I cannot help you out on that front, and I'm too busy with other stuff, personal and even Nexuiz related as well.

Btw, I loved to read the 'Baker' anagram too, really enjoyed reading it

It will severely break laser jumping, as the projectile would be fired when RELEASING the mouse button. Everyone would have to relearn how to use the laser, as, if they used their CURRENT timing, they'd fire the shot too late. Also, as its strength would differ based on how long the button was held, it'd get much more difficult to use in a predictable manner - even more difficult if you are hindered by lag.

If anything, think about putting such functionality on the RIGHT mouse button of the laser. There, it won't break laser jumping...

I too learned from my mistakes in the previous discussion in this topic but yes what I want to suggest now is just what couldn't brake the balance of the game (I like the way [-z-] put up things). Personally I don't believe a laser would be good at all for the alt. fire of the Hagar (if that's what you meant) but a charging laser for the current nr. 1 Laser gun would be awesome rather then the small simple instant one the laser gun currently has.

Anyway I'm still curious what people think about having the alt fire for the hagar work as a "rocket shotgun" that slowly loads rockets while you keep the alt fire pressed then shoots them in front like a shotgun when you release? Wouldn't that be most suitable for it? I think that would rock for the hagar... then I'm thinking that the flamethrower idea (yeah I really wanted one a lot for the game) could be separate if any would be to get implemented, and could be the 10th weapon in the arsenal since currently we don't have one but that is a separate topic either way.

No, the discussion got derailed into CHANGING the primary of the LASER (Nr. 1), which is sure a bad idea, as it breaks ALL existing laser jumps (as they need different timing).

Putting such a thing on the laser's secondary however wouldn't be that bad.

But not on the hagar... hagar indeed can get something else, although the bouncing idea is good and useful. But I tried randomly bouncing 0 to 5 times, and it simply got too weak then... only every 6th shot hit where you wanted it to

Actually I have to say that I also like the idea of a chargeable laser. The problem that charging the laser would require it to fire on the "release" event is indeed something that I didn't think about at first, so thanks for pointing this out, div.

But how about if we have the normal fire on the "press" event. If the "release" event doesn't follow anytime soon (say 2 to 5 secs), the charging starts - firing a second time on "release". In order to make the charged laser not too powerful (esp. for moving), the extra push effect could for example only work on others, not the player himself. This would then not affect maps that are designed for special laser combo-jumps - for example facing worlds, jumping up the tower from the backside, though I personally feel that facing isn't designed for Nexuiz at all to begin with :o/ but that's another story.

In order to prevent people running around with a fully charged laser until they meet somebody, the laser could also automatically fire when it is fully charged. Just an idea, not sure of whether this is a good one :o)

What do you think? I would like to contribute with more than just ideas but up to now this is the most constructive input I can give.

halogene wrote:Actually I have to say that I also like the idea of a chargeable laser. The problem that charging the laser would require it to fire on the "release" event is indeed something that I didn't think about at first, so thanks for pointing this out, div.

Same here, didn't think about that at all. However I didn't think much at all, I just wanted a chargeable laser, I don't care where one puts it, if it is secondary laser or some other secondary function for a weapon or if a new weapon totally.
I didn't even know if we talked Hagar, the actual laser or something else anyway. I just liked the chargeable laser idea
Putting it on the primary laser would be a bad idea though indeed.
Need to go, don't have time typing anymore more later, maybe.