Alien wrote:No!!! Wait. Will be it by default?

That's wrong, totally wrong. I disagree with it with all my heart. Really. That's practically almost ruins CTF. It's not enough that crylinkers stops you with negative force, almost anyone can shot you with nex, now you limit the speed of flag carrier. Why???

If this will be as bad as I think, CTF popularity will go down soon. And CTF is the most popular part of Nexuiz.

Of course it will be by default, and now you see why it is only a reduction to 70%. I won't go any lower. Laser has to stay useful for FCs.

The solution to the problem you mention is teamplay. Have someone help you while you bring home the flag. The whole PURPOSE of CTF...

And as you still have full bunnyhopping and a 70% laser, it shouldn't be impossible to escape. Team mates can still give you full Nex boosts, BTW

I tried it, and it appears it did not get MUCH harder to escape on most maps. Facing and greatwall DID get harder by it, but these maps are exceptions. On e.g. mIKEctf2 the difference is almost nothing.

Nonsense.

You are slower and any DECENT defender will surely catch you. You're just ruining gameplay for more experienced players. That's all. Gw and fw sucked without this, now they will suck even more. It will be miracle if somebody manages to cap.

Yeah, utopian dreams. Where do you see team in public ctf? People don't know shit about gameplay, physics, yet they act as a team. Some don't even know in which team they are playing or don't speak english, yet I should tell them to attack with me and protect the fc and that you need to go back to your base instead of standing in enemy base and shooting around.

Where have all these threads gone which players in your team you hate most? One day they act totally clueless, yet another one they start to play as a team.

Another thing, will you reduce laser force but leave rl boost the same? I suppose 70% will apply to rl too.

BTW, you will destroy some routes for the fc completely. Everyone will know where they will be going because fc won't be able to jump through some gaps which normal players could, so they will need to take other way around.

It seems you need to play public CTF more.

FC speed needs to be dealt with. Even experienced players have no chance in hell stopping a really fast FC, even WITH Nex. I am a rather good aimer with Nex, yet I have a hard time hitting those people who goes Super Sayajin speed. Then think about the newbies or at least other people who aren't as experienced as me or other, they will have 0% at actually stopping the FC.

Open maps is the most problematic, such as Greatwall, Facing Worlds and even Capturecity.
Now, before people actually start complaining about some test settings. It's best to try them out first hand. Meaning playing a bit, a couple o days with those settings, not just 10 min or 1 hour, and see how it goes and what needs to be altered.
People adapt to new things. If the FC's speed is capped, then he will surely figure out a new way to score with new means.

And on another note. If people don't act like a team now then there's something wrong indeed. So why not try to come up with ways to actually make them act like a team subconsciously. Meaning, in a way create a gameplay that depends on it to win. Do people join a CTF server to play some DM/TDM or to play CTF? Make sure that it is team oriented. A player should almost not be able to cap all by himself, unless he's a very good player.
That's at least my opinion.

Without trying to make some changes, the CTF gameplay will never change either. And I bet we all want the same thing in the end anyway, a good team oriented gameplay for the CTF mode.

Alien wrote:BTW, you will destroy some routes for the fc completely. Everyone will know where they will be going because fc won't be able to jump through some gaps which normal players could, so they will need to take other way around.

It seems you need to play public CTF more.

I am playing public CTF only which is the reason for the changes.

And name ONE example of a route on a decent map (as in, map that players actually LIKE) that is no longer possible for the flag carrier...

Easily:

Reservoir. Jumping from nex balcony to your base or from enemy base to nex balcony.

Greatwall taking flag out of lava with rl might become impossible (laser jump even doesn't work there).

Various mikeUSA maps where you get into some sort of deep hole and need to use laser accurately.

In mental space/respaced reaching the upper platform without rl.

Morfar ctf01 reaching those high towers.

Capture city nex tower without using other buildings or jump pads.

PushmeCTF jumping with rl from side platforms to your base.

Dance, castle, sierpinski might not work as intended.

In gasolinepowered you might not be able to jump from one base to another using strength.

I'm not even discussing that this change will ruin such fragfests as succer socks and eggandbacon. Yet, they are not competitive CTF maps as almost all I mentioned but yet they are in map pools and liked by some of the player base.

Alien wrote:Reservoir. Jumping from nex balcony to your base or from enemy base to nex balcony.

Greatwall taking flag out of lava with rl might become impossible (laser jump even doesn't work there).

Various mikeUSA maps where you get into some sort of deep hole and need to use laser accurately.

In mental space/respaced reaching the upper platform without rl.

Morfar ctf01 reaching those high towers.

Capture city nex tower without using other buildings or jump pads.

PushmeCTF jumping with rl from side platforms to your base.

Dance, castle, sierpinski might not work as intended.

In gasolinepowered you might not be able to jump from one base to another using strength.

I'm not even discussing that this change will ruin such fragfests as succer socks and eggandbacon. Yet, they are not competitive CTF maps as almost all I mentioned but yet they are in map pools and liked by some of the player base.

I've been playing with SVN both locally (all by myself) and on public (sup galt?). While at first I was a little shaken by the change, it simply requires a little adjusting. You have to remember that self-damage is 70%. This means, not only do you not go as far but less damage is done to you. Mortars don't hurt as much, neither do rockets. Advance your target with the right amount of speed, fire a rocket at the ground and you'll be fine. Practice your in air rocket saves if you're so worried.

With that said, some of your examples are a bit extreme.

Alien wrote:In gasolinepowered you might not be able to jump from one base to another using strength.

They promote the selfishness I believe this change was aiming to fix. Why wouldn't you just alter your route and touch down in the middle?

Alien wrote:Various mikeUSA maps where you get into some sort of deep hole and need to use laser accurately.

What are you doing in a hole with the flag? You're not a very good flag runner if you're in a hole.


70% really isn't that big of a deal. It's manageable.

The whole point in weakening the laser for the FC is so that he SHOULDN'T be able to jump from the enemy's base to your own with just like two or three laser jumps. It's not fun to play a CTF game where the FC caps in under 3 secs all the time. This is not a race against time, it's a team based game.

Greatwall: I actually have jumped out of the lava on Greatwall with just the laser.

Maps like Sierpenski (if it is the map I'm thinking about, the one with triangles right?) and mikeeUSA maps I don't even consider at all. I have yet to see one map that I actually like that mike has done which has good gameplay. I believe there might be one, which I forgot the name and the actual map, that has decent gameplay at least.

Morfar's map has hook enabled so you wouldn't even need to laser/RL yourself on top of the towers. And even if the hook wasn't enabled, Morfar officially stated to me that you shouldn't even use the laser to get up there (as it's a lot harder), either RL or hook. That was the whole point, he said.

Mentalspace: I see that map more as a time killing map. It doesn't have good gameplay or anything. I don't even care which side wins on that map. To me it was clearly made as a joke more than a serious map.

Caste: Is it CasteDM you mean? I love that map and I also don't think the laser cutting would hurt on that map too much. It's rather close to where you would want to laser jump on.

Alien wrote:Easily:

Reservoir. Jumping from nex balcony to your base or from enemy base to nex balcony.

Use an explosive instead, e.g. mortar.

Greatwall taking flag out of lava with rl might become impossible (laser jump even doesn't work there).

Not relevant.

Various mikeUSA maps where you get into some sort of deep hole and need to use laser accurately.

Even less relevant.

In mental space/respaced reaching the upper platform without rl.

Still working. Tried it.

Morfar ctf01 reaching those high towers.

Still working (hook).

Capture city nex tower without using other buildings or jump pads.

Mortar, or a laser walljump.

PushmeCTF jumping with rl from side platforms to your base.

Not intended by the mapper.

Dance, castle, sierpinski might not work as intended.

Sierpinski was done by me, and I had laser usage in mind at no point of it. The movement tricks on it I found out later all do not involve the laser or any other explosive jumping.

In gasolinepowered you might not be able to jump from one base to another using strength

That is exactly what harms teamplay and SHOULD not be possible. Also, I doubt the mapper intended that to work.

I'm not even discussing that this change will ruin such fragfests as succer socks and eggandbacon. Yet, they are not competitive CTF maps as almost all I mentioned but yet they are in map pools and liked by some of the player base.

Eggandbacon certainly is not impacted by it, as it is very laser climb friendly. succer_socks, maybe, but that would actually make succer_socks MORE enjoyable.

1) Mortar is not always available weapon. Isn't mortar's boost equal to laser boost?
So if you reduce explosion's force for fc, mortar's one will be reduced too. Or will you reduce only laser push?

2) Lots of things were not intented by mappers, but they became innovative features. Bunnyhopping, gliding, strafe jumping, combos were not intended or not thought of, but now they are considered essential.

3)I think you're confusing maps. Eggandbacon is made for laserjumping and quick capping. You can't cap anything here if you're slow.


Remembered another: laser jump from enemy base to central platform in pushmectf. Now you'll probably need to use those jumpads.

The pushmectf jump from base still works.

And capturing in two seconds with no sign of teamplay is NOT an innovative feature we want to keep.

And Mortar has much stronger boost than laser at the edge of its radius, which counts very much for boosting while running. If that is still not enough, use the rocket launcher.

And eggandbacon is a map I MADE. Instead of always trying to capture alone, why not go distract the enemy from your team's flag carrier? Shoot the ones who attack him? They shouldn't be hard to find.

Ok, ok, i'll test it without any prior negative opinion.

Yet, in eggandbacon, it's far more easier for 8 players kill 1, then for 7 kill 8.

Dun have time to read everything that was said here, but this is my view about the CTF game type; It's really good and almost the way if has to be but there are two things that bother me a lot about it;

1 - On the eye candy side, both flags are floating symbols and not flags like they should be. In the end the gametype is called Capture the Flag not Capture the Symbol, so one of the first things on the appearance side I'd like to see are the flags actually being flags. Symbols are perfect for Domination though. Flags could have team symbols painted on them too alongside the team color if needed.

2 - On the scoring now there's one thing that always bothered me; Instead of flag captures having their own scoring system (where each capture gives 1 point to the respective team) capturing the flag only throws 100 frags for that team. In other words, if you shoot 100 players from the enemy team in a CTF game you do exactly the same thing as making a simple flag capture. Of course grabbing the flag is easier then shooting 100 players, but still shouldn't the scoring be based on the flags only and the deathmatch part removed out of CTF? Each player's frag count can just be put in a separate list if how much you frag is important in such a game type. Same for other game types where the objective is not to kill as much as possible and scoring should be done by doing what you must there.

MirceaKitsune wrote:1 - On the eye candy side, both flags are floating symbols and not flags like they should be. In the end the gametype is called Capture the Flag not Capture the Symbol, so one of the first things on the appearance side I'd like to see are the flags actually being flags. Symbols are perfect for Domination though. Flags could have team symbols painted on them too alongside the team color if needed.

Yeah, that's already being made. There was a huge discussion about flag concepts and this link below is the winning concept. This got the most votes. So I'm currently creating textures for it and such and if everything works out hopefully it will become a standard.
Link: http://www.alientrap.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3669

MirceaKitsune wrote:2 - On the scoring now there's one thing that always bothered me; Instead of flag captures having their own scoring system (where each capture gives 1 point to the respective team) capturing the flag only throws 100 frags for that team. In other words, if you shoot 100 players from the enemy team in a CTF game you do exactly the same thing as making a simple flag capture. Of course grabbing the flag is easier then shooting 100 players, but still shouldn't the scoring be based on the flags only and the deathmatch part removed out of CTF? Each player's frag count can just be put in a separate list if how much you frag is important in such a game type. Same for other game types where the objective is not to kill as much as possible and scoring should be done by doing what you must there.

Good, then we have one more on board. Many players do think like that, but some people think that will only hurt CTF (which I actually don't see how). But if enough people actually wants this maybe it will be changed in the future. Let's keep pushing the devs in this direction.

ai wrote:Caste: Is it CasteDM you mean?

dm_castle perhaps?

I think the 70% reduction is good.

I can't wait for new flags, they are looking great.


But I'd like to get this thread back on track.



The scoreboard needs work.

MirceaKitsune wrote:2 - On the scoring now there's one thing that always bothered me; Instead of flag captures having their own scoring system (where each capture gives 1 point to the respective team) capturing the flag only throws 100 frags for that team. Word words words.

Welcome to Nexuiz last year. There is a huge CSQC change to a different system that has just occurred, I believe your 2.4.2 client BY DEFAULT, runs in this mode. You may have downloaded new scoreboards from a server. But yeah... that's how it was.

I'm not positive but I think this might be something you can toggle as a server admin.

[-z-] wrote:Welcome to Nexuiz last year. There is a huge CSQC change to a different system that has just occurred, I believe your 2.4.2 client BY DEFAULT, runs in this mode. You may have downloaded new scoreboards from a server. But yeah... that's how it was.

I'm not positive but I think this might be something you can toggle as a server admin.

So the 2.4.2 client runs like that be default? I did download some mods but I think it was the classic Nexuiz CTF I played. But if it was like that I'd be really glad to see a return of such a scoring type

This is not scoreboard issue. One cap - one point setting is only available in svn servers, imo. Please correct me if i'm wrong. Yet you can use new scoreboard in 2.4.2 but you'll get more detailed statistics not the changed gameplay.

Alien wrote:This is not scoreboard issue. One cap - one point setting is only available in svn servers, imo. Please correct me if i'm wrong. Yet you can use new scoreboard in 2.4.2 but you'll get more detailed statistics not the changed gameplay.

Yeah I checked the latest precompiled SVN build does show Caps and Score so yeah that's much better Though it seems the score is still counted differently and you must make a certain number of points to win, not just 3 or 10 flag captures.

So... now that we've clarified a problem solved by the devs some time ago... how about we go forward with this equation? Can anyone expand upon it?