Mr. Bougo wrote:Thank you

You're welcome. I also just uploaded the "combined-gib" sound (still in full stereo) for your reference to know what those two sounds - come out like when mixed together.

That should settle it, I checked it out. Was it a melon? Who's cleaning up for you?

Looks like we'll not require Tenshihan to sign the legal document I spoke about, and the sounds should be fine.

As for leileilol's arguments on IRC:

[11:08:45] <leilei> that armor1.wav i've heard as a grenade bounce from some game before

Certainly not. armor1 looks like anything but a viable grenade bounce sound. Get real.

[11:29:29] <leilei> i don't think he's aware of the gpl license of nexuiz
[11:29:36] <leilei> i think he thinks it's some freeware game

He obviously is, and did provide valid sources for gib.wav.

[11:29:56] <MrBougo> I read that last line from his last post
[11:30:09] <MrBougo> where he says he holds copyright but permitted use for nexuiz
[11:30:19] <leilei> yeah thats screaming non-Free there
[11:30:22] <MrBougo> if nexuiz uses that, it must be gpl, so anyone else can then use it?
[11:30:27] <leilei> no
[11:30:29] <MrBougo> oh well
[11:30:41] <leilei> i somehow missed reading that line
[11:30:50] <leilei> but yeah that line right there definitely deals the seal
[11:30:54] <leilei> 'permitted' is not committed

Of course he holds copyright. In some legislations, he can't even give it to us if he wanted (e.g. in Germany - copyright is ALWAYS held by the original author, however, many of the sub-rights associated with copyright can be transferred). And he did permit usage under the GPL, which does mean other projects can use them.

[11:36:34] <m0rfar> Yeah, I can remember some of the sounds are similar to sounds in other games...

Of course. There's just so many ways a shotgun can sound, after all. And maybe Tenshihan used a real shotgun, and some other game uses sounds recorded from that same brand and type of shotgun. Sure they'll sound alike. Or, some sounds are made using melons or other fruit being smashed. There's only so many ways to smash a melon.

[11:40:59] <leilei> "Personal requests? (REMEMBER, I RESPOND WELL TO POSITIVE ATTITUDE, AND DO NOT RESPOND AT ALL TO NEGATIVITY) So be polite!"
[11:41:03] <leilei> this guy IS a baby apparently

This is disproved, and Tenshihan DID answer even to leileilol. This line in the txt file very obviously does not reflect Tenshihan's attitude, but the NNs' attitude.

[11:55:42] <MrBougo> isn't it possible to do some filterwork to get a different waveform sounding the same?

EQs change the waveform's hull quite much. However, divide the sounds up in sections of "high frequency" and "low frequency". That should stay invariant when EQing, or chorusing, or doing any other filter that works in frequency space. And about no usable filters work in amplitude space (apart from adding noise, and dynamics/volume changes).

[11:58:10] <leilei> he really didn't do the former
[11:58:20] <leilei> or i'd have .aup files on my desktop by now

Not always do these files contain all data. I have yet to learn how to do image processing without using the "flatten image" operator before doing global operations (like sharpen), as these WILL look different and wrong when applied to the layers one by one. Same goes for audio filters that aren't linear maps (e.g. dynamics compression/expansion) - when using them, you have to "flatten" your sound file first, or it'll turn out wrong.

Therefore, such project files not being available is the usual case, and a flaw of the editing applications, and does not hint to a violation of a license. Basically, I am saying: most applications's formats for storing audio or image "projects" are insufficient to provide full source, especially including Audacity's and GIMP's. However, it would be mad to assume you cannot make free (as in GPL) sound files or textures using Audacity or GIMP. Therefore, the "source requirement" simply does not apply to such files.

Of course, this legal situation of audio and image files "usually simply HAVING no notion of source code" may change when applications adopt file formats that allow FULL non-destructive editing. But that has yet to happen. In case of image editing, it would e.g. require the file format to store information about which part of the image has been filtered in which way. XCF does not store all that! You can't make a layer that "sharpens what is below", which essentially would be the required feature.

[12:06:16] <leilei> anyway if this tenshishan gets away in the end, nexuiz will earn a bad reputation probably

First of all, the sounds are likely genuine, especially with the proof we have now.

Secondly, negative PR is PR too, and it may actually let the player count RISE.

divVerent wrote:That should settle it, I checked it out. Was it a melon? Who's cleaning up for you?

Looks like we'll not require Tenshihan to sign the legal document I spoke about, and the sounds should be fine.

LOL - no melons chief, ...just my mouth full of water.

If you need me to sign anything - send me a PM so we can discuss how to go about it. Anything so I don't have to go through this kind of tribulation again.

I'm going to sleep now, ...i'm still sick with the Flu.

Cheers,

~Tenshihan

Yeah, openarena probably gets LOTS of POSITIVE attitude, smashing ioquake devs and arguing about textures at freegamedev.

Well, in my opinion, Tenshihan's sounds are clean. But if anyone wants to see him sign that thing to clear up the issue, we can arrange that. I am familiar with German law, and although not identical to US law, copyright is very similar across countries which have signed the Berne Convention, so it is very likely that this will be a strong enough "agreement" to stand in cour to defend Alientrap from possible lawsuits and shift the liability to Tenshihan, who is convinced that his sounds are genuine (and he, having made them, should know best).

Here: http://ffmpeg.mplayerhq.hu/shame.html (and nobody happens anyway, this shame page is years old). I can't understand who would make a lawsuit against ALIENTRAP because of sound file. You all are REALLY out of your minds if you think so. At the worst case, you'll be contacted by some corporation attorney with threatening letter ordering to remove the copyright infringening materials. That's all.
Imagine eff headline: open source game company AT was brought into custody because it contained "supposedly" proprietary bleh.wav sound infringing rights of Vomit Limited (remington), who has patented vomitting (shotgun) sound in 2005. Oh, noes. That's ridiculous.
Another example, who would be responsible in community driven project as Inkscape? Infringing content would be removed. End of story.

[18:14:19] <leileilol> looks like i lost this one
[18:14:31] <leileilol> nexuiz will forever be tainted with non-Free-ness
[18:14:37] <leileilol> have fun on my ignore list div0
[18:15:01] <@div0> huh? what did _I_ do to you?
[18:15:05] <@div0> but well, ignore me if you want
[18:15:09] <@div0> Tenshihan had provided proof
[18:15:25] <@div0> what more can you want

Looks like leileilol is nothing but a small child. When he still used the nick CheapAlert, he wasn't THAT childish...

but if leileilol starts speading this on other websites and disregarding the proof by Tenshihan, he'll soon get banned on these sites. So much is sure.

Alien wrote:Here: http://ffmpeg.mplayerhq.hu/shame.html (and nobody happens anyway, this shame page is years old). I can't understand who would make a lawsuit against ALIENTRAP because of sound file. You all are REALLY out of your minds if you think so. At the worst case, you'll be contacted by some corporation attorney with threatening letter ordering to remove the copyright infringening materials. That's all.
Imagine eff headline: open source game company AT was brought into custody because it contained "supposedly" proprietary bleh.wav sound infringing rights of Vomit Limited (remington), who has patented vomitting (shotgun) sound in 2005. Oh, noes. That's ridiculous.
Another example, who would be responsible in community driven project as Inkscape? Infringing content would be removed. End of story.

The thing is that ANYONE using the sounds could get sued for it, not just AT. There's larger projects out there with more potential to "sue money out of", you know.

divVerent wrote:disregarding the proof by Tenshihan

that 'proof' doesn't even relate to the suspicious sounds in question. Also, using visual comparison of altered waveforms has absolutely no basis - it takes an ear to hear it out. For christ's sake, it's a SOUND.

This sounds even more ridiculous (it doesn't mean you are not right). According to you, responsible would be the person who has used copyright infringing materials even they were claimed as GPL. Any source who would confirm the statement you stated above?

This was response to div, not leileilol.

leileilol wrote:

divVerent wrote:disregarding the proof by Tenshihan

that 'proof' doesn't even relate to the suspicious sounds in question. Also, using visual comparison of altered waveforms has absolutely no basis - it takes an ear to hear it out. For christ's sake, it's a SOUND.

Yeah, you probably can recognize shotgun models from the sound. Nice.
As I said nothing can be proved, ffs. Why nobody can understand that? How are you gonna prove? Will you make a search at tenshinhans house?

leileilol wrote:

divVerent wrote:disregarding the proof by Tenshihan

that 'proof' doesn't even relate to the suspicious sounds in question. Also, using visual comparison of altered waveforms has absolutely no basis - it takes an ear to hear it out. For christ's sake, it's a SOUND.

If you insist, what about asking Tenshihan for that signed declaration? A wrong statement in such matters could get very expensive for him, so he wouldn't sign it if it is not true.

Alien wrote:This sounds even more ridiculous (it doesn't mean you are not right). According to you, responsible would be the person who has used copyright infringing materials even they were claimed as GPL. Any source who would confirm the statement you stated above?

Exactly that person IS responsible, as he is (unknowingly, but that does not matter) committing a copyright violation. However, if he has proof that he got the materials under the GPL, the "good faith" construct can be used to defend in the court.

http://www.lectlaw.com/def/d027.htm

And why did you delete *your* "proof"? I can't even verify it, the files are 404.

And Tenshihan: to clear all this up, do you still have the source files of the hit sound leileilol was referring to (no idea which one of the different hit sounds it was)?

divVerent wrote:Exactly that person IS responsible, as he is (unknowingly, but that does not matter) committing a copyright violation.

That's why I asked for source for this particular statement. If some 3rd party enterprise sells you silver disks you can't be punished unless you know that they were illegal from the start.
The most simple example: you have a bike, bike was stolen, a person at the bazaar buys a bike without knowing it was stolen, you notice your bike and the city and call the police, you PROVE that it is your bike (eg. by id on the frame) , bike is confiscated from that person, but he isn't punished and investigation for the real thief begins.

The example, which would work for you: you buy drugs or prostitute (ok, it's legal in your country), but you're punished because you know that these actions are wrong.

Alien wrote:

divVerent wrote:Exactly that person IS responsible, as he is (unknowingly, but that does not matter) committing a copyright violation.

That's why I asked for source for this particular statement. If some 3rd party enterprise sells you silver disks you can't be punished unless you know that they were illegal from the start.

Unless you SELL or DISTRIBUTE them. Of course the USERS can't be sued.

divVerent wrote:And why did you delete *your* "proof"? I can't even verify it, the files are 404.

in an unrelated turn of events, the site hosting OA ran into a billing issue. Also there's going to be a domain renewal issue coming up. The outcome is going to affect the fate of my labors of love. Yay thanks.
i will reupload the evidence elsewhere shortly as a zip file.

divVerent wrote:

Alien wrote:

divVerent wrote:Exactly that person IS responsible, as he is (unknowingly, but that does not matter) committing a copyright violation.

That's why I asked for source for this particular statement. If some 3rd party enterprise sells you silver disks you can't be punished unless you know that they were illegal from the start.

Unless you SELL or DISTRIBUTE them. Of course the USERS can't be sued.

What's the difference. Now some 3rd party enterprise gives them as GPL.

http://www.sendspace.com/file/2uftt0
bing! now they're not a 404 anymore!

elite_fire.wav is about hagexp* btw.

Link was removed.

I will just continue to use the custom sound pack he gave me containing a hit sound where the victim says F*$@ . childish maybe , but it is very humorous to me and i cant recall another game using that specific sound . i have talked with Tenshihan and actually heard him say it the same way the sound wav does in the game . it is actually him in my opinion .

I just hope we dont loose a great influence in the nexuiz community over this . I do not want the old sounds back .

General Public License Version 2 does not contain any indemnification clause, therefore all distributors CAN be deemed responsible.

There still exist plenty of defences IF, and only IF infringement was proved by judiciary process, otherwise compare similarities between alleged Microsoft patent infringement in the GNU/Linux kernel.

Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt.

Because there wasn't such precedent, uncertainty really exists. GNU might not mention who are liable for infringements, but common laws still apply.

I for one, wish to thank Tenshihan for both the contribution of such important assets to Nexuiz, and for the patience to go so far in proving authorship of them.

Sorry about this mess, childish remarks do not do a project any good.

I wish leileilol would present claims of copyright violation in a more mature and coherent way, rather than sounding like a troll again and again. It's valuable information but presented entirely the wrong way, full of opinion and not much substance.

divVerent wrote:if leileilol starts speading this on other websites and disregarding the proof by Tenshihan, he'll soon get banned on these sites. So much is sure.

What I don't understand is - what files can be disputed now after I provided a sample of myself making them?

In the manner of wanting to appease everyone, Hell, ...I will even RE-RECORD sounds that seem TOO similar to other game-sounds, ...as long as the request is reasonable.

I just can't understand why this stubborness hasn't been put aside, considering I even gave an example of HOW I did my verbal 'gib' sound-effect. What else SHOULD I do?

Is the "sound in question", even being USED anymore? Because I have since redone the hit sound in my most recent releases anyway. (Remember my mentioning re-leveling it for volume by 111% and doubling the length?) So what exactly IS the problem here now? The 'hit' sound shouldn't even slightly resemble anything of consequence NOW. (Not that it ever SHOULD have been).

Any OTHER files I should redo just to calm everyone down here? Now all this legal talk is getting crazy for me, ..what the hell is going on?

In Canada, which is where I'm from and reside, CopyRight is automatically placed to me upon my creating any kind of media-artform. In turn, by my own decision, that's why I said publically on the forums that I commit every sound release I make for Nexuiz and that my sounds are made under the GPL. What else do I have to say or do, to make this work so we can MOVE-ON?

I just want RESULTS ...so what can I possibly do to make everyone happy? (Don't say; "Don't use those sounds" either, because they really ARE my sounds.)

I seriously defy ANYONE to provide a sample of MY shotgun sound from any other source. Sure, some shotguns DO sound similar, as 12 gauge buckshot leaving the barrel of a gun at a certain speed is bound to sound similar - however, no one else's sound will be anything like mine because of the way I processed my sound by layering two of MY recording sources.

One shotgun recording we did outside for a sense of natural depth, and the other was done inside, for the maximum bass reflection. It was the latter-recording that was too distorted at first for me and I had to turn DOWN the gain very low so to stop this distortion. Then, later when I got home from the gun-range, I worked on combining these two shotgun blasts until it turned out as you hear in game. I also then had to bring down the bass and the treble so that repeated play woudn't hurt the players ears. (If you heard the original, you would understand why I did this, ...it's painful to listen to because it's such a sharp cracking sound, much like lightning. I had to also dull-down the Nexfire because railguns are dangerously loud and cause permanent ear-damage if heard too often.)

If my gib sound turned out similar to 'other' game sounds, that's because as i've noted, there are only three traditional ways of making a 'gib' sound. I WANTED my recording to sound like a traditional gib sound because that was my goal in the first place. I am purposely using the exact same methods that other professionals are using, ...that doesn't mean that MY sounds are ripping them off, ...it just means i'm good at what I do.

I've been doing this a LONG time, i'm not some amaturish kid who is starting out and completely new to this, so of course my sounds are going to reflect my decades of experience. (I grew up in the entertainment industry for gods sake! I also used to act and do stunt-fighting on TV shows, ...but does this mean I can't ALSO make sounds for a video-game, though?)

LordHavoc wrote:I for one, wish to thank Tenshihan for both the contribution of such important assets to Nexuiz, and for the patience to go so far in proving authorship of them.

Sorry about this mess, childish remarks do not do a project any good.

I wish leileilol would present claims of copyright violation in a more mature and coherent way, rather than sounding like a troll again and again. It's valuable information but presented entirely the wrong way, full of opinion and not much substance.

Hello LordHavoc!

...Thank you VERY much!

Tenshihan wrote:In the manner of wanting to appease everyone, Hell, ...I will even RE-RECORD sounds that seem TOO similar to other game-sounds, ...as long as the request is reasonable.

No, sounds are very good (except maybe wrong volume levels here or there). You better create MORE instead of wasting time.

divVerent wrote:...And Tenshihan: to clear all this up, do you still have the source files of the hit sound leileilol was referring to (no idea which one of the different hit sounds it was)?

Yes, I do, and it sounds nothing alike in my opinion, ...although obviously related because of what I was trying to imitate. The file version in question (I'm guessing) is one of my older files when I had completely changed the hit sound altogether and used my mouth-gib as a replacement (it was a distatrous failure though and I learned from the experience).

No one really liked it so I then 'combined' the two sounds and used that instead for a few months, ...however, due to a lot of reports recently that people STILL couldn't hear the 'hit' sound over the nex-fire, ...I really went overboard and BOOSTED the original hit sound to 111%, and also doubled the length of the file so it could be easily heard. There is still some quiet remnant of my old verbal gib sound in there, though it has been shortened and quietened, quite a lot.

For easy reference, I am labelling these files as the following:

"hit1.wav" is the shorter version of one of my older verbal gib-sounds (edited to be shorter in length for time-of-play), it has absolutely NO original 'hit' sound in it what-so-ever. This was the file that was a failure amongst my peers here.

"hit2.wav" is the combined work of the original hit sound and my verbal gib sound. This file has been used for months, until recently due to people not being able to hear when they were making a hit - so I boosted the original 'hit' part of the sound as I've previously mentioned, and left my verbal gib part to be far quieter.

"Combined-Gib(Mono).wav" is one of my early variations of a gib-sound, ultimately edited for time-length.

Please check my signature for these download examples, located in the .zip file called: "tenshihan_gibs.zip"

Alien wrote:

Tenshihan wrote:In the manner of wanting to appease everyone, Hell, ...I will even RE-RECORD sounds that seem TOO similar to other game-sounds, ...as long as the request is reasonable.

No, sounds are very good (except maybe wrong volume levels here or there). You better create MORE instead of wasting time.

Hahah, thank you Alien, that made me smile bro, ...do you have any particular request of any sounds you want re-leveled? (I'm sooo in the mood to work because of all of this, despite being sick).