very nice work Tenshihan

Quality sound & very profesh

*applause*

I don't have decent heaphones here (i'll test them very carefully when/if I get back my sennheiser headphones). I was thinking about some other people, who might like something leveled down or raised up.

It's a shame someone has caused so much unwarranted stress in your life. Truly your contributions deserve more love than that. This recent spread of hate has plagued these forums and sometimes people forget to be optimistic. Even when faced with evidence, some refuse to believe anything outside their own opinions. Making ignorant, negative and pessimistic claims about someone else's ideas, theories, sounds, models or otherwise contributions HELPS NO ONE.

This negativity is infectious and we should all try and do our part to stop it from spreading. It's important to understand our differences and try to exercise our strengths. We should focus on building community through positive energy.

Much love and respect goes out to you for putting up with this bullshit Tenshihan.

P.S. I don't like having to add this disclaimer but if anyone thinks this post is hypocritical, you clearly don't understand my angle. I hope for the sake of community, you reread my posts with this one in mind.

Alien wrote:I don't have decent heaphones here (i'll test them very carefully when/if I get back my sennheiser headphones). I was thinking about some other people, who might like something leveled down or raised up.

Sennheiser are excellent quality headphones, ...one of my personal favourites. German engineering is fantastic, they really work hard to get the frequency-response PERFECT, and I rarely say that about any other products.

To be honest, I for one never doubted, and still don't doubt Tenshihans sounds. I don't know if it's the magical aura the artists share or something else.
Tenshihan has also proven himself, as far as I'm concerned to be genuine.

I actually have a friend who studied sound engineering and really wants to get into it and work with it, he talks to me sometimes about different sound equipment and the process of how these sounds are made. It sounds really fun to be doing that. Going out and recoding your own sounds. He currently saves money to buy a professional mic which can record vocals as well for one which he can use for surround environment (or something like that).
It's just that sound equipment (good sound equipment) is so expensive

I want to buy his midi keyboard to create music myself. I've always wanted to create my own music but never had the right stuff for it.

Oh and Tenshihan, go get some rest Make that flu go away then you can continue on where you left off. Health is more important

[-z-] wrote:It's a shame someone has caused so much unwarranted stress in your life. Truly your contributions deserve more love than that. This recent spread of hate has plagued these forums and sometimes people forget to be optimistic. Even when faced with evidence, some refuse to believe anything outside their own opinions. Making ignorant, negative and pessimistic claims about someone else's ideas, theories, sounds, models or otherwise contributions HELPS NO ONE.

This negativity is infectious and we should all try and do our part to stop it from spreading. It's important to understand our differences and try to exercise our strengths. We should focus on building community through positive energy.

Much love and respect goes out to you for putting up with this bullshit Tenshihan.

Wow, ...thank you for this -z-!

I agree with everything said here whole-heartedly - especially about needing to stop negativity.

Peace, love and respect back at you, bro!

ai wrote:To be honest, I for one never doubted, and still don't doubt Tenshihans sounds. I don't know if it's the magical aura the artists share or something else.
Tenshihan has also proven himself, as far as I'm concerned to be genuine.

I actually have a friend who studied sound engineering and really wants to get into it and work with it, he talks to me sometimes about different sound equipment and the process of how these sounds are made. It sounds really fun to be doing that. Going out and recoding your own sounds. He currently saves money to buy a professional mic which can record vocals as well for one which he can use for surround environment (or something like that).
It's just that sound equipment (good sound equipment) is so expensive

I want to buy his midi keyboard to create music myself. I've always wanted to create my own music but never had the right stuff for it.

Oh and Tenshihan, go get some rest Make that flu go away then you can continue on where you left off. Health is more important

Wow, ...this is really nice, man, thank you so much 'ai', ...getting all this support when I really needed IS helping me a lot. Admittedly - it really did stress me out and while being sick - that's not a good thing.

Like your friend, I also had a tough time trying to find a good financial solution to having excellent quality recording equipment. I found the solution in my Edirol R-09HR Portable Digital Audio Recorder. http://www.edirol.net/products/en/R-09HR/

It's about $450 (Canadian funds) and is one of the industries best portable digital stereo recording utilities. I highly recommend it to anyone who wants to get into recording sound.

I think you're right, bro, ...I should get back to bed and relax, ...except I just feel I have a duty here and wanted to make sure everything is going to be ok.

Thanks to the positive letters from all you guys, i'm beginning to relax.

Roland rocks (TB-303 forever).

SC0RP wrote:very nice work Tenshihan

Quality sound & very profesh

*applause*

Thank you as well SC0RP, ...and great music on your myspace page man! ...Keep up the great work!

Disputing the origin of the said sounds is the issue here.

This is not a dramatic, personality rap battle pissing contest - I could care less of how many who thinks of me as Hitler. That is not the point.

This is why I have not lowered myself to reply to every insult I have recieved. Try again and try sharing the real source of the suspect audio files rather than an unrelated bunch of 'gib' samples to prove otherwise. I don't think armor1.wav was created by mouth or melon.

I've yet to be proven wrong. Insults are moot.

Alien wrote:Roland rocks (TB-303 forever).

....wow man, ...that goes back a long time, ...to when "I" was new to all of this!

leileilol wrote:Disputing the origin of the said sounds is the issue here.

This is not a dramatic, personality rap battle pissing contest - I could care less of how many who thinks of me as Hitler. That is not the point.

This is why I have not lowered myself to reply to every insult I have recieved. Try again and try sharing the real source of the suspect audio files rather than an unrelated bunch of 'gib' samples to prove otherwise. I don't think armor1.wav was created by mouth or melon.

I've yet to be proven wrong. Insults are moot.

It seems you need to prove, not he. Sorry.

leileilol wrote:Disputing the origin of the said sounds is the issue here.

This is not a dramatic, personality rap battle pissing contest - I could care less of how many who thinks of me as Hitler. That is not the point.

This is why I have not lowered myself to reply to every insult I have recieved. Try again and try sharing the real source of the suspect audio files rather than an unrelated bunch of 'gib' samples to prove otherwise. I don't think armor1.wav was created by mouth or melon.

Armor1.wav was created using my weight-set. Dragging a 5-pound metal weight onto another one and letting them gently collide with each other. I never claimed that 'armor1.wav' was created by my mouth, or by melon.

As for your conclusion that I "haven't shared the original audio sources"? ...if you can't understand by listening and hearing what i've said, ...I no longer care. I'm not wasting anymore time on this subject.

Tenshihan wrote:As for your conclusion that I "haven't shared the original audio sources"? ...if you can't understand by listening and hearing what i've said, ...I no longer care. I'm not wasting anymore time on this subject.

Cool Edit Pro was used, with multi-track editing. There are project files in existence. These are not shared, either. I guess this refusal to share the sources ultimately makes the sounds non-Free and GPL incompatible then, since after all I am being denied the source?

What do you think if another project derives from your sounds? Is it still yours? Do you still claim ownership of it and have all the right to take it away? This is a separate issue from the potential plagiarism, by the way.

What I want is some answers and citations, not slander. I didn't have any intent to slander (though my earlier posts do look that way, my temper can regrettably explode when a GPL data project I like is in danger of possible infringement). This thread is not about me. This thread is about the sounds. This is a valid discussion, and my attitude has nothing to do with it.

leileilol wrote:

Tenshihan wrote:As for your conclusion that I "haven't shared the original audio sources"? ...if you can't understand by listening and hearing what i've said, ...I no longer care. I'm not wasting anymore time on this subject.

Cool Edit Pro was used, with multi-track editing. There are project files in existence. These are not shared, either. I guess this refusal to share the sources ultimately makes the sounds non-Free and GPL incompatible then, since after all I am being denied the source?

What do you think if another project derives from your sounds? Is it still yours? Do you still claim ownership of it and have all the right to take it away? This is a separate issue from the potential plagiarism, by the way.

What I want is some answers and citations, not slander. I didn't have any intent to slander (though my earlier posts do look that way, my temper can regrettably explode when a GPL data project I like is in danger of possible infringement)

The source is wav file (which is lossless pcm modulation - raw file) . What if I use an application which exports to wav only? I have no use of his project file because my app can't read his project file. So how can it be the source?
Those project files won't work neither in reason, nor in ableton, cubase, ardour, whatever.
This is the same ridiculous requirement of psd files as source. Psd file is proprietary photshop file format and isn't the source either cause you can't require other apps to understand it.

Alien wrote:The source is wav file (which is lossless pcm modulation - raw file) . What if I use an application which exports to wav only? I have no use of his project file because my app can't read his project file. So how can it be the source?

There are different variations of the offending hit.wav sound with the familiar fleshy part at various volumes. This clearly shows that a project file exist and the .wavs, albeit lossless, were still rendered from the project file.
This is similar to 3d rendering to a PNG image from a .MAX file (not saying Nexuiz has any of this). I can't open .MAX files either, but hate it or love it, it's still the undeniable source of the PNG image. You can't make variations of the 3d rendering without the said source file; you can only manipulate the picture.
Same for OGG renderings of songs - you can't alter the notations of a song without its project file. (one of the reasons why I encourage tracker music instead of OGGs only back at the OA forums)

So I had no use of your source, because I don't have 3dmax or any other app which can output max. That said I can create stupid app called wagobe garbashop and sell it 10000$ and give my all sources at garbashop format. These aren't sources cause they limit the user choice. And because nobody would be able to buy garbashop, sources would be essentialy closed.

Holy crap leileilol! Are you trying to waste enough of his time so that he creates new sounds to satisfy your ego?

I feel like you won't be satisfied until he makes a video of himself creating sounds... which you'll probably question and ask for the original film for.

Unsuccessful troll is unsuccessful.

That's why ogg is not source cause you can't recreate original lossless format from most of oggs (lossy ones).

Alien wrote:That's why ogg is not source cause you can't recreate original lossless format from most of oggs (lossy ones).

Lossyness isn't part of the issue. Even if a cool song is in a loss-less .WAV format, you still can't change its notes because it's already rendered from a project file from whatever app they used.

Or it's recorded DIRECTLY without any preprocessing done. What can't you do with wav exactly?
And of course, you can't change notes?, because it's stream of samples and not notes.
Similarly why you can't convert wav to sm3, it, mod, whatever files.

She is right. Source are the original files which make up the output. I.e. files for Max, Maya, Blender, Audition, Photoshop etc. Those are the true source files.
Just because someone might not have enough money to buy the specific application doesn't mean they are necessarily closed source, it's still open source for those that has those applications. It's just accepted that sound files and models come as they do as the original files would take too much space and not practical to distribute with the game itself.

Recording directly works as well, but it depends on what application one records in or edit it. That would be the final 'source' definition.

ai wrote:She is right. Source are the original files which make up the output. I.e. files for Max, Maya, Blender, Audition, Photoshop etc. Those are the true source files.
Just because someone might not have enough money to buy the specific application doesn't mean they are necessarily closed source, it's still open source for those that has those applications. It's just accepted that sound files and models come as they do as the original files would take too much space and not practical to distribute with the game itself.

This is where you're wrong. You can have fuckin disassembler, binary is not source. C files theoretically could be compiled independently from the system, cause c reference is open. Now if I give my source in alienfooby language without any reference how it actually works, would it be considered open? No.
As I said I can release a format for my personal use and release the sources under that format. This is not open source, cause format IS CLOSED. Got that?

Another example, microsoft open document format was not accepted as open standard until they fixed such shit as underline, spacing as in word95, cause word95 is not a standard and furthermore not open either.

Alien wrote:This is where you're wrong. You can have fuckin disassembler, binary is not source.
As I said I can release a format for my personal use and release the sources under that format. This is not open source, cause format IS CLOSED. Got that?

Actually, I don't understand this. What does it matter what format you're releasing under? Source is still source. Source is what you use originally to create the work. When I create models I use Maya, so Maya is my source, not the exported model (which true, can be used as source too), but that's not my original source.

This is at least my view on source files. I don't understand the complicated things you're bringing up.

Guess why nexuiz does not use mp3? Because this a patented technology (iirc, fraunhofer) and therefore not really open source. Same goes for aac and it's various kinds (apple, others).

leileilol wrote:

Tenshihan wrote:As for your conclusion that I "haven't shared the original audio sources"? ...if you can't understand by listening and hearing what i've said, ...I no longer care. I'm not wasting anymore time on this subject.

Cool Edit Pro was used, with multi-track editing. There are project files in existence. These are not shared, either. I guess this refusal to share the sources ultimately makes the sounds non-Free and GPL incompatible then, since after all I am being denied the source?

What do you think if another project derives from your sounds? Is it still yours? Do you still claim ownership of it and have all the right to take it away? This is a separate issue from the potential plagiarism, by the way.

What I want is some answers and citations, not slander. I didn't have any intent to slander (though my earlier posts do look that way, my temper can regrettably explode when a GPL data project I like is in danger of possible infringement). This thread is not about me. This thread is about the sounds. This is a valid discussion, and my attitude has nothing to do with it.

First off, there was no multi-track editing, and i'm not even sure why you would bring up such a thing, even if I HAD done so. These sounds are MY own sources, and I thereby have the right to use them any way I see fit. In this case, I release them to AlienTrap for the game 'Nexuiz' under the GPL license.

What 'project files' are you referring to? ...mine? If so, why should I release my unfinished work? Just to please YOU? That's not how an artist works. When i'm working on sound, i'm not thinking to myself, "I better keep an original recording in case no one believes it's mine." That's ridiculous. I'm focused on the work, not possible accusations.

When im done processing a sound, I have built upon the original unpolished file, there is no longer an original unmodified sound (usually) when i'm finished processing. Why would I want to keep it? ...To fill up my hard-drive with an uneccessary mess?

I have shared what I choose to release, which is my right. I do NOT have to publish my original recordings before they are finished being crafted by myself. I already HAVE done that today, and once is more than enough. That's like asking a painter for his paints, brushes and canvas, instead of being satisfied by seeing the finished product.

In short, you have already shown that no amount of proof is enough to satisfy you.

I ask you again, ....WHY, when I have all these tools at my disposal to create my OWN custom soundwork, WOULD I WANT TO merely 'steal' someone elses work?

I have released my work for Nexuiz under the GPL license, this means that if anyone else wants to use my sounds, they ARE free to use them, even outside of Nexuiz. If they want to use them, all the power to them. If they choose them - it's because they obviously LIKE them and can tell they were created with care and professionalism.

What I do NOT understand is how you came to THIS conclusion:
"I guess this refusal to share the sources ultimately makes the sounds non-Free and GPL incompatible then, since after all I am being denied the source?"

How exactly does my not sharing my original source material - equate with my RELEASES not being GPL compatible? This defies logic in all sense.

Do you also ask mappers to provide their early versions of a map when they release their finished product? Should they 'hold-onto' their first drafts, because YOU might later come along demanding the proof they made it?

FYI: I record all my work in ".wav" and then after finishing my work in post-processing, I convert it to ".ogg" for the game to use because the files are smaller.

Alien wrote:Guess why nexuiz does not use mp3? Because this a patented technology (iirc, fraunhofer) and therefore not really open source. Same goes for aac and it's various kinds (apple, others).

Ok, I think now know what you're getting at. Thank you for speaking a rather simple language that I understand
However, can this really be true. I mean, I understand why .mp3 would be patented, but that's because you can use it on most applications that support sound. But with .max or .mb/.ma (Maya) and .aac (if that is Audition), even though they are patented (I bet they are) they can only be used with one application, their application. Or is it because they are patented that they cannot be open source? If so, then I think I'm on the right page.

And you are asking for supposed sources, which do not mean anything for most people and me cause we don't have stupid proprietary app.

ABC

My own parser (gcc backend) converts A to #include <stdio.h>, B to int main(void){ C to printf("This is ridiculous"); return 0;} and then gcc compiles and produces fabulous exe.

Now the question: can ABC be considered source without me giving any information how my parser works? If the answer is yes, think why nobody thought about that before.

ai wrote:

Alien wrote:Guess why nexuiz does not use mp3? Because this a patented technology (iirc, fraunhofer) and therefore not really open source. Same goes for aac and it's various kinds (apple, others).

Ok, I think now know what you're getting at. Thank you for speaking a rather simple language that I understand
However, can this really be true. I mean, I understand why .mp3 would be patented, but that's because you can use it on most applications what support sound. But with .max or .mb/.ma (Maya) and .aac (if that is Audition), even though they are patented (I bet they are) they can only be used with one application, their application. Or is it because they are patented that they cannot be open source? If so, then I think I'm on the right page.

Because you need license to decode and play mp3 (that's why codecs are not by default on most linux distros, cause some stupid countries have stupid laws). And you need license to encode to aac (mpeg4 part2?/mpeg2 part4? specification implementation). Yet, you don't need the license to play them, iirc (may be wrong). That's why faac (aac encoder) is illegal according to some laws. AAC - advanced audio coding, really better than mp3 and competing with OGG.

i made this cool song. Can you tell which samples come from games and which are "hand made"?

Also hmm

"hit1.wav" is the shorter version of my verbal gib-sound (edited to be shorter in length for time-of-play), it has absolutely NO original 'hit' sound in it what-so-ever. This was the file that was a failure amongst my peers here.

these line up pretty well.