divVerent wrote:And I hate PMs in this forum - I never notice them. The forum should somehow tell me that there are some...

I get an email whenever someone sends me a PM. You can check if you have it set up in the preferences.
"Notify on new Private Message"

Just committed.

Awesome, thanks for everything DivVerent.

BTW, does anyone know what happend to the website for downloading the Nexuiz-NEWEST builds? ((http://141.2.16.23/~rpolzer/nexuiz/builds/))

There's only a blasted torrent there now, I DESPISE those things! I really liked having a quick-download with a simple click (I could get the newest version in under 5 minutes), instead of having to commit HOURS to using a damn shareware program. I hate putting excess crap in my AlienWare NoteBook that I DON'T need.

Are there any OTHER links that I can use to simply download the Newest SVN build?

Probably bandwith issues.

You can use svn client:

Code: Select all

svn svn://svn.icculus.org/nexuiz/trunk Nexuiz


I'll offer HTTP in the future again - but limited to 300kb/sec per user.

Well well, I finally had the change to try out the latest SVN version of nexuiz that includes your sounds, Tenshihan

I really like a lot of the sounds you did - good job man. But one thing that really bugs me right now is that there doesn't seem to be ANY balancing of the sound volume levels at all. When playing v2.4.2 I have the feeling of having some kind of 'constant' sound level/loudness. In current Nex SVN, this is absolutely not the case. Especially the mixture of old sounds with new sounds doesn't work at all, and this comes out very clearly when using headphones.

Just to mention examples: I can barely hear the switch-weapon-sound or the weapon-pickup-sound. There are a lot more other things that feel weird but would need more time to figure out what exactly it is. Apaprt from that, almost all of your sounds use very high frequency areas and I feel like I am only having swooshing sounds from a science fiction movie around me, I miss the bass and midtones a bit

This is just my very own critical opinion, so you can also just ignore it . I tried to be as honest as possible.

Oh, one technical note on this one: My volume setting is at 0.2 (in menu this shows: master -7 db, all individual channels are set to MAX). I know that making audio that hushed by using the volume setting can cause weird effects, as the frequencies come out differently then.

i would like to see an option for the player where he can choose which sounds he want to hear..
- the old school Nexuiz sounds
or
- the new "sounds"

changing "awesome did you yoda show you that" into a lame "amazing" is my highlight..
and "flag taken" still sounds for me like "lag taken" and it could say "red/blue flag taken" etc.

OT: a radar On/off button wouldn't bad too.

A sound switching option is too hard to do, but what we do have is a way to turn on/off sound channels.

Radar can be turned on/off in the menu easily.

divVerent wrote:Radar can be turned on/off in the menu easily.

uhm where? i only see an option to change the size

Oh right, I remember. I intentionally made that no option. Radar is there to be used, by turning it off you prove you do not care for teamplay. Configure it to suit you instead of turning it off.

Mirio wrote:changing "awesome did you yoda show you that" into a lame "amazing" is my highlight..
and "flag taken" still sounds for me like "lag taken" and it could say "red/blue flag taken" etc.

I'm not sure I understand the way you phrased that sentence - using the word; "lame" and then saying "highlight"? Are you saying you 'like' or 'dislike' the change? O.o

I tried to explain in detail before as to why I made that change: Too many foreigners don't understand the words in the original, and have no idea who "Yoda" is because not everyone has seen the StarWars saga. That's why I simplified it - because everyone can understand the word "Amazing".

Also, hearing; "Awesome, Did Yoda show you that?" was a very LONG line, and interfered with hearing what else was going-on around the player. In a fast-paced game like Nexuiz, shorter commentry from the announcer is better.

For those who love hearing the original, you simply delete the Yoda file from my soundpack in the following folder:
"sound\announcer\male\yoda.ogg" ...Then the original will play.

I've recently redone "Flag-Taken" to be more clear, however, I cannot make the code to say either "Red-Taken", or "Blue-Taken", ...I wanted to do that as well, but can't until the code is provided to trigger those changes. Maybe Div' will look into that?

My next soundpack should be finished by next week, ...but I have a LOT going on in my personal life right now, so I can't guarantee any dates.

Rest assure that when it's done, I will post here to let you all know.

Cheers,

~Tenshihan

GreEn`mArine wrote:Well well, I finally had the change to try out the latest SVN version of nexuiz that includes your sounds, Tenshihan

I really like a lot of the sounds you did - good job man. But one thing that really bugs me right now is that there doesn't seem to be ANY balancing of the sound volume levels at all. When playing v2.4.2 I have the feeling of having some kind of 'constant' sound level/loudness. In current Nex SVN, this is absolutely not the case. Especially the mixture of old sounds with new sounds doesn't work at all, and this comes out very clearly when using headphones.

Just to mention examples: I can barely hear the switch-weapon-sound or the weapon-pickup-sound. There are a lot more other things that feel weird but would need more time to figure out what exactly it is. Apart from that, almost all of your sounds use very high frequency areas and I feel like I am only having swooshing sounds from a science fiction movie around me, I miss the bass and midtones a bit

Hmmn, ...what model of earphones are you using and what is their frequency-response?

I assure you that my sounds are digitally recorded perfectly flat, therefore your bass, midtones and treble should sound perfect - unless your headphones are out of phase. Please check your computer's equalizer settings and make sure that all frequencies are set to Flat - then try the game again.

Tenshihan wrote:

Mirio wrote:changing "awesome did you yoda show you that" into a lame "amazing" is my highlight..
and "flag taken" still sounds for me like "lag taken" and it could say "red/blue flag taken" etc.

I'm not sure I understand the way you phrased that sentence - using the word; "lame" and then saying "highlight"? Are you saying you 'like' or 'dislike' the change? O.o

I happen to like "amazing", I thought it was a good touch. It's a firm but gentle and confident reassurance that what you just did was in fact "amazing". Whispers in the wind compared to a robot with a very unclear voice. Isn't this a futuristic game? We don't have better computer simulated voices for robot announcers yet?

Johnny 5's voice was clearer.

Tenshihan wrote:I tried to explain in detail before as to why I made that change: Too many foreigners don't understand the words in the original, and have no idea who "Yoda" is because not everyone has seen the StarWars saga. That's why I simplified it - because everyone can understand the word "Amazing".

For a long time I thought it was 'Juda', I was like... errr who the hell is Juda?

divVerent wrote:Oh right, I remember. I intentionally made that no option. Radar is there to be used, by turning it off you prove you do not care for teamplay. Configure it to suit you instead of turning it off.

Oh yes i don't care for gameplay. Thx lol
another player turned it off too:
"nexuiz is too fast for tactic organization within radars"

and he said about the thing with the option if old or new sounds he said
"no way, its just loading a different sound package file"
i don't know..

i like that idea.. :

why the fuck is it so hard to make a brainstorming with pro players from all gametype? the developers should just listen to them, since they know the gameplay much better, they know what nexuiz needs

If we'd listen to the self-proclaimed "pro players", Nexuiz would now have a single player model, which is a huge green box, and all maps would be shades of gray and no textures. We know why we ignore the "pros" and instead try to make a game that tries to be good for EVERYONE, not just these self-proclaimed "pros". Sure that means that changes have to be made that these "pros" don't like, and other things won't be liked by the "others". A balance between them has to be found.

There is always resistance to new things (including Tenshihan's sounds). Still, the radar IS useful in teamplay, as you can use it to choose a good route e.g. when bringing the flag home (namely, one with team mates on it).

Anyway, a "pro" should be clever enough to find out how to turn that feature off. Unexperienced players intentionally should not be able to turn it off, as it DOES improve teamplay when they get used to it.

Actually, there is only one reason why one may think the radar is useless, and that is if you do everything alone and don't let your team help you. But is that really the purpose of a team game? The fun part about the radar is that it is a big help to plan your route (which is a very fast process) without your team mates ACTIVELY helping, and without actually communicating. You simply choose a route where they are, and an enemy which pursues you will have to deal with your team mate too.

And "loading a different sound package" can only be easily done at startup by putting in a pk3 or not, and not by the menu. E.g. because there is no way to add/remove a pk3 from the search path at that point.

Also, being a developer, I try to make a game _I_ like. I am not making it out of pure altruism - and anyone who thinks open source development is altruism is blind. No, one does not make open source to "bring humanity forward", or to "make something good for everyone". Software is NOT made open source so everyone can use it and read the code. That's not the purpose of open source. It is made open source so others take it and extend it, and - directly or indirectly - give back their improvements (or fixes) to the authors (e.g. in form of patches).

Also, I want to play it TOO. So I certainly won't develop anything that brings the game AWAY from how I like it to be, no matter how many "pros" want that. Just like Tenshihan also wants to hear his sounds when playing the game instead of the old ones. If you prefer an annoying beep as walking sound, this may be your personal preference. But Tenshihan is actually DOING the sounds, and it therefore is HIS creative freedom how they come out, and not yours. You can give constructive criticism, but what Tenshihan does with it is his decision. Just like it is AT's decision whether to accept his sounds or not, but that decision has been made already as they are clearly much better as the old ones.

If you want your ideas in, learn how to do it and submit patches, just like Tenshihan does, and like Ronan started to do (BTW, we finally have a demo browser again, thanks to Ronan). Any contributor does nothing else than trying to push the game in the direction in the direction HE prefers. We are not employed by any of these self-proclaimed "pros" who sure play the game much, but do not actively contribute, it is our freedom what we do and what not. However, any "pro" is welcome to learn how the game is developed and edited, and bring in his ideas that way.

Back to the main topic of the thread: Tenshihan: make the sound files, and tell me where they are. I'll code it when the files are there. This also holds for the crylink secondary. If the sound file is there, I can code it without having a "dead link" to some content that is not there yet. Of course, you are free to change the sound later. I don't need final sound versions for that, just ones that sound different from the primary.

Mirio wrote:

divVerent wrote:Oh right, I remember. I intentionally made that no option. Radar is there to be used, by turning it off you prove you do not care for teamplay. Configure it to suit you instead of turning it off.

Oh yes i don't care for gameplay. Thx lol
another player turned it off too:
"nexuiz is too fast for tactic organization within radars"

and he said about the thing with the option if old or new sounds he said
"no way, its just loading a different sound package file"
i don't know..

i like that idea.. :

why the fuck is it so hard to make a brainstorming with pro players from all gametype? the developers should just listen to them, since they know the gameplay much better, they know what nexuiz needs

I actually didn't understand anything of that I'm not sure what you are criticizing, if you are at all.
Oh, and Nexuiz isn't too fast for gameplay, lool. That's just stupid to say.

ai wrote:Oh, and Nexuiz isn't too fast for [radar in] gameplay, lool. That's just stupid to say.

Gonna have to agree with this, lol.

I forgot to add one point. Sure others enjoying the game/software is part of the incentive to development. But it's not all. Main incentive is still making something YOU do like.

Same goes for mappers, BTW, too. Mappers make maps THEY like - even if they have bad gameplay. Mappers tend to prefer visually good environments over "efficient for gameplay" ones. Telling mappers to restrict themselves to improve gameplay of the maps is near impossible (which is part of the problem with CTF we currently have). It simply does not work like that. Mappers want to like their own maps too. Instead, one has to convince them that another approach to creating their environment is better for gameplay. E.g. there sure are ways to make "organic environments" with "terrain" and stuff that are actually closed maps. I just have never seen such a map, but I can't exclude this possibility. But finding a way to do that would greatly help Nexuiz CTF, as mappers may take that path instead of the current "open terrain map" path.

Radar ≠ gameplay. I don't need a radar looking for routes to capture. i know the ways.. and it was just a damn idea. If a player wants to disable it he have to look for a command. Many games have an On/off option. The player still can chose. maybe new players don't like it?

And about the sounds i just post my opinion that the announcer is hard to understand. i wonder who said they are much better.

divVerent wrote:E.g. there sure are ways to make "organic environments" with "terrain" and stuff that are actually closed maps. I just have never seen such a map, but I can't exclude this possibility. But finding a way to do that would greatly help Nexuiz CTF, as mappers may take that path instead of the current "open terrain map" path.

Working on one right now

Mirio wrote:i wonder who said they are much better.

A lot of people said they are better But I also happen to agree with Tenshihan that a lot of people doesn't hear what the original announcer said. I too didn't know what he said before I saw someone spell this out on the forums.

But yeah if you do not like it you can customize it yourself by removing the new announcer sound in the .pk3. And when/if this 'Amazing' sound becomes official with Nexuiz you can just create a .pk3 with the old sound in it. You won't lose anything there, just a minute setting this up.

I would perfectly go along with Green' mArine with the new sounds. In my opinion the announcer voices are erm... "Amazing." BUT for the weapon-sound part there are several issues in different viewpoints: First the rocket explosion sounds might try to imitate a real one as well as possible, but its quality is just not good enough, at least on my headphone it has "scratching" noise. And when I shoot with it, its just... WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHH!!!! And I cant hear any other goddamn thing for a whole second, tho i might be contantly under nex fire or something
Secondly the volumes are not on the same level as Green said too, the newest electro primary sound is just way too silent, you cant even notice when you are contantly under fire from 5-10 meters by it... And the nexes sound surpresses that bipping, what is played when you hit a player. (tho the sound itself is cool)
And the third issue is the frequency, I just wrote esteel perfectly the same this morning about it: if we watch the sounds alltogether, they are too sharp for the ears, and somehow they are just not representing the POWER of the weapons any more (except the shotgun and nex sounds). The best example is the laser: it reminds me of a super mario jump now, I swear Its like the weapons would turn into a techno felling games killing arsenal, I dont even dare to say which game I think about (starts with "W" ) The bass and depht are missing way too much...

Tenshihan wrote:Hmmn, ...what model of earphones are you using and what is their frequency-response?

I assure you that my sounds are digitally recorded perfectly flat, therefore your bass, midtones and treble should sound perfect - unless your headphones are out of phase. Please check your computer's equalizer settings and make sure that all frequencies are set to Flat - then try the game again.

I have the "Speed-Link Medusa 5.1 Pro-Gamer Edition" (of course !!! )

In Nexuiz (and other usual stereo sources) just the 2 front speakers are used. Here are their specs: Ø 40mmx2, 64Ω, 20Hz-20kHz

And as Francotirador said, I don't seem to be the only one with this problem.

Mirio wrote:Radar ≠ gameplay. I don't need a radar looking for routes to capture. i know the ways.. and it was just a damn idea. If a player wants to disable it he have to look for a command. Many games have an On/off option. The player still can chose. maybe new players don't like it?

And about the sounds i just post my opinion that the announcer is hard to understand. i wonder who said they are much better.

You don't get it.

Everyone knows the ways. But you don't know on which path there are team mates that can support you.

Turning the radar off should only be a last resort, and not the first thing "Mr. Noob" does, as he WILL be a better player if he gets used to it. THAT is why there is no menu option to disable it. First try to configure it so you like it, only if that is not possible, disable it.

I know have more time to fully answer this original post:

GreEn`mArine wrote: "...one thing that really bugs me right now is that there doesn't seem to be ANY balancing of the sound volume levels at all. When playing v2.4.2 I have the feeling of having some kind of 'constant' sound level/loudness. In current Nex SVN, this is absolutely not the case. ..."Just to mention examples: I can barely hear the switch-weapon-sound or the weapon-pickup-sound. There are a lot more other things that feel weird but would need more time to figure out what exactly it is. Apart from that, almost all of your sounds use very high frequency..."

On the subject of 'balancing sound-levels': My recordings are recorded professionally using 24-bit digital sampling and are not 8-bit sounds from regular open source like the original Nexuiz sounds were. (That's why they all sounded so similar and 'even'.)

My sounds have variable sound-levels dependant on the situation at hand. For instance, in real life, the sound of you picking up a gun should NOT be 'balanced' to be the same sound-level as a rocket-launching. Why WOULD you want all the sounds in Nexuiz to be the same exact level? (Yes, I purposely turned those two files's sound-volumes down.)

However, when you refer to "too high a frequency", ...are referring to high-pitch 'treble', or the volume? Please keep in mind that exact terminology is very important when talking to an experienced sound-technician like myself, because certain words mean VERY different things.

With more than 20 years in this field, I HAVE to stick-up for myself and tell you that NONE of my sounds have a frequency that is "too high". (I record in 24-bit at 96000 Hz, but I publish my ".wav" sounds for Nexuiz at 44100 samples per second using 16-bit digital sound. Similarily, I publish my .ogg files as; 128Kbps, 44100 Hz with a ratio of 11:1). These are both CD quality releases, whereas the old Nexuiz-sounds were mainly recorded at just 22050 Hz, which is only HALF of my sound quality.

For your reference; I purposely level all the weapons to just 88% of maximum-frequency, so there is never any clipping or distortion, and most of all, so that players are not subjected to constant excessive noise. Because THAT is what burns your ears out and causes deafness. To do any different would be highly irresponsible of me, and I DO care about the players well-being.

You listed your headphone's frequency response, but you didn't list if your PC equalizer was set to flat. This is a MAJOR problem, because that's one-half of a possible solution which you chose not to answer.

Also, after doing comprehensive research on your headphone-model (Medusa), I found they are made of plastic and the internal parts are glued together with epoxy-glue (resin).

Something I politely want you to know; Epoxy-glue eventually loses it's flexibility due to body-heat, time, and usage, it therefore becomes brittle and most commonly breaks-off inside the headphone itself, causing 'rattling'. It may not be how long you've had the headphones, but rather - how long were they sitting on a shelf before you bought them, and what they may have been subjected to (heatwise, and possible collision-damage) even before you purchased them, ...hence, it may not be your fault if they aren't producing clean sound. This is an ever growing problem with most headphones today.

So, if one other person agrees with you here that they're also having 'distortion' problems - that merely means they have the same problem with their headphones, ...not that my sounds are at fault.

GreEn`mArine wrote:This is just my very own critical opinion, so you can also just ignore it . I tried to be as honest as possible.

I will keep that in mind, because until you also have a sound-studio with the equipment available to accurately measure my sound-frequencies and THEN find fault with them, ...I will listen to the majority here - which seem very happy with my sound-quality.
(Particularly - the Developers opinions count most of all to me - because they influence the outcome of Nexuiz's evolution.)

I sincerely hope you have taken all of this in the way I mean it - with my upmost care and kindness towards you, ...and not as brash Counter-criticism of your opinion, which I DO respect completely. I always take positive advice to heart and do my best to accommodate as many as I can, ...unfortunately - I cannot always please everyone. I hope you understand.

Thank you for your honesty,

Cheers,

~Michael 'Tenshihan' Quinn

--FraNcoTirAdoR-- wrote: First the rocket explosion sounds might try to imitate a real one as well as possible, but its quality is just not good enough, at least on my headphone it has "scratching" noise. And when I shoot with it, its just... WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSSSSSSSSSSSHHHHHHHHHH!!!! And I cant hear any other goddamn thing for a whole second, tho i might be contantly under nex fire or something

Your 'scratching noise' is most likey attributed to the same problem I just talked about - loose parts of glue-resin in your headphones.

There's no need for me to 'imitate' a real rocket-launcher, because what you hear IS a REAL rocket-launcher, sampled perfectly using the best digital recording technology available.

As for the launch sound itself; ...Should it be so quiet that you can hear EVERYTHING around you? How about NOT putting yourself in a position to be hit with a Nex? (Seems to me that strategy would be the best solution. Myself? I try to NOT stay still (or visible) while playing Nexuiz. Maybe that's just the Ninja in me?) Whether or not you can hear a Nex shooting at you is irrelevant if you are caught in it's crosshairs, ...because you KNOW without a doubt when you are hit.

--FraNcoTirAdoR-- wrote: And the nexes sound surpresses that bipping, what is played when you hit a player.

Do you NEED to hear the 'hit' sound when you hit someone with a Nex, or aren't the flying-gibs enough of a sign that you "got them"? To put it another way - should the "Hit" sound be LOUDER than the Nex so you can hear it? ...Does anyone really have to answer that question?

--FraNcoTirAdoR-- wrote: And the third issue is the frequency... they are too sharp for the ears

Turn your treble DOWN on your PC's equalizer, my sound-frequencies are NOT 'too high' at all. (Again as explained in my most previous post)

--FraNcoTirAdoR-- wrote: The best example is the laser: it reminds me of a super mario jump now, I swear Its like the weapons would turn into a techno felling games killing arsenal, I dont even dare to say which game I think about (starts with "W" ) The bass and depht are missing way too much...

...Unless you provide positive criticism that could help improve anything, the rest of this post is meaningless to me.

divVerent wrote: Back to the main topic of the thread: Tenshihan: make the sound files, and tell me where they are. I'll code it when the files are there. This also holds for the crylink secondary. If the sound file is there, I can code it without having a "dead link" to some content that is not there yet. Of course, you are free to change the sound later. I don't need final sound versions for that, just ones that sound different from the primary.

Thanks again Div', ...I will continue working on these new ideas and also make them part of the next big release!

Cheers!

@Tenshihan: Thanks for the answer, I don't bother quoting some parts of your posts as this would make the post just much longer.

When I initially said that for me the sounds had no balancing at all, I was at first thinking that you certainly know how to do it, but probably forgot to adjust the sound levels. I now know it better.

Then, thanks for pointing out why the old sounds sounded all equally loud for me - the thing with the low quality recording explains that. As a matter of fact, I don't own a studio myself, but I have quite a bit of knowledge and I was able to fully understand what you were talking about when using the technical terms. If I find time I'll do a frequency analysis of the different sound files to see if I can point out anything else.

To answer your questions: I don't have the equalizer enabled (so the settings are "flat") and what I mean with high frequencies was the high-pitch 'treble', not the volume. I think that this is the case because these sounds DO reflect how the weapons sound in real life, as opposed to how they sounded in the previous nexuiz versions.

About your theory with the glue: I really doubt that this is it, sorry. It seems a little far fetched for me. I will try to get different headphones and try again. But tbh, I think the difference I subjectively experience is because of the major difference of the sounds before (nex v2.4 sonds) and after (your sounds). I am also not saying I am having "distorsion" problems, the sound is very crisp to me, it just feels as if the midtones and bass is too less. And I know my headphones can deliver these frequency ranges from watching DVDs or listening to music with the same headphones.

From what I can see you want to have extreme realism and quality in your sounds. This results in sounds that are not having the same subjective loudness to a person (I know that you explained, they are very realisitic, and are processed to be equally loud by yourself). For me as a player who was previously able to tell where my opponent was on a map based on the sound they do (when shooting or picking up items) this means that now I won't be able to do that anymore, and that I will even need much more time as before because the sounds aren't so equal anymore . This is just a part that explains my resistance about the new sounds .

To conclude: thanks for the efforts, I now understand your intentions and beliefs in high realism and high quality. Personally, I will certainly either alter a few sounds so that they fit into my personal scheme of how loud I like the sounds to be, or replace some the weapon/pickup sounds with the old ones again.

GreEn`mArine wrote: If I find time I'll do a frequency analysis of the different sound files to see if I can point out anything else.

Cool, ...I will have my next sound-release to be leveled even more correctly than previously - thanks to your insightful input - which I greatly appreciate! Please make sure to download my next soundpack, hopefully it will redeem my past efforts in your favour, because I do respect your opinion. Thank you for being kind in your presentation while critiquing my work.

GreEn`mArine wrote: For me as a player who was previously able to tell where my opponent was on a map based on the sound they do (when shooting or picking up items) this means that now I won't be able to do that anymore.

I apologize for my oversight and admit now that I hadn't thought of that aspect - I was only thinking of the loud snapping sound that 'pick-ups' previously had, ...however, thanks to this post of yours - I have now re-leveled the pick-ups by 3db+. That should provide a comfortable middle-range for both concerns.

GreEn`mArine wrote: Personally, I will certainly either alter a few sounds so that they fit into my personal scheme of how loud I like the sounds to be, or replace some the weapon/pickup sounds with the old ones again.

Hopefully my re-leveling of these sound-aspects will satisfy your needs, ...I aim to please as many people as possible and respond well to any positive criticism that helps evolve Nexuiz.

Cheers mate,

With friendship,

~Tenshihan