CTF Gameplay Mechanics

Developer discussion of experimental fixes, changes, and improvements.

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Sat Oct 04, 2008 7:30 pm

  • Considering the previous poll on this subject is confusing, mutually inexclusive, and votes are not explained by nature of phpBB, this new series of polls was created to sidestep all the technical issues.

    Gameplay mechanics [abbreviated as GPMs] are inclusive of both map design, and game settings; Nexuiz CTF is proved to be broken as is, and either majority of the maps, or the game settings will need to change in order to fix standard CTF.

    Quake/UT game settings favour the defender over the attacker on the success scale, with the low relative velocity and distance, engaging an incoming attacker, or outgoing flag carrier, requires less effort than entrance or escape.

    Quake/UT maps have well established flag bases, surrounded by spawns and sufficient pickups to repeal rushing attackers, an effective assault may only be mounted with the more effective pickups in the field between bases, therefore both teams must attempt to control the midfield. The majority of Nexuiz' maps are currently of this flavour

    Tribes game settings favour the attacker over the defender, extremely fast movement velocity paired with difficult weapons to use on the go, allow the attacker to swiftly pierce through any defence and quickly swipe the flag. This encourages concurrent attack on the opposing flag by both teams to steal the opposing flag, therefore prevent the opposing team from scoring. Nexuiz' CTF game settings are currently of this type.

    Tribes maps have very exposed flag bases, granting the attacker even more of an advantage in taking the flag, while all the weapons are concentrated at team bases, separate from the flag base, through the usage of inventory stations. Some of Nexuiz' maps are like so.

    Mixing either Quake/UT game settings and Tribes' maps, or Quake/UT maps and Tribes' game settings, does not work well.


    This specific poll is about whether you would prefer Tribes GPMs [Current game settings with MojoCTF-like maps], or Quake/UT GPMs [flag carrier needs to penalized in some manner to make it harder to escape than for the defender to prevent escape], in order to fix Nexuiz CTF.

    Your possible voting options are:

    Quake/UT Gameplay Mechanics
    Tribes Gameplay Mechanics
    Neutral/Undecided

    Please copy and Bold one of these voting options into your post; also give a short explanation to why you chose your choice; the votes will be tallied below:

    Quake/UT Gameplay Mechanics
    divVerent

    Tribes Gameplay Mechanics

    Neutral/Undecided
    Last edited by TVR on Sat Oct 04, 2008 8:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
    TVR
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Sat Oct 04, 2008 7:38 pm

  • previous vote is omg confusing :/

    anyway, what I want:

    0) FULL FC SPEED with pogostick on
    1) cap=20 pts
    2) return=5 pts
    3) frags do not count
    4) default timelimit = 30
    5) game autoends if difference is fraglimit/2
    6) default fraglimit = 500
    alpha
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Sat Oct 04, 2008 7:57 pm

  • Quake/UT Gameplay Mechanics, as another choice will mean throwing away about all existing maps.

    And I bet lots of people here will vote without knowing what they are voting for.

    To the voters: "Quake/UT" means we have to slow down the flag carrier in SOME way.
    "Tribes" means we have to throw away all existing CTF maps, except for maybe a few, and not change the game otherwise.
    If you want to keep on rocket jumping from base to base with the flag alone on current maps, you cannot vote in this poll.

    Pick your poison.
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    divVerent
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Sat Oct 04, 2008 8:07 pm

  • divVerent wrote:"Tribes" means we have to throw away all existing CTF maps


    harr :)

    MIKEUSA can always make moar maps
    alpha
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Sat Oct 04, 2008 8:21 pm

  • Sure, but his maps are, if anything, of the Quake GPM type.

    (As in, singleplayer Quake - you have to find the switch opening the door first, or "THIS DOOR IS OPENED ELSEWHERE", and there is traps everywhere)
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    divVerent
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Sat Oct 04, 2008 11:55 pm

  • divVerent wrote:Sure, but his maps are, if anything, of the Quake GPM type.

    (As in, singleplayer Quake - you have to find the switch opening the door first, or "THIS DOOR IS OPENED ELSEWHERE", and there is traps everywhere)


    It slows down the flag carriers :). Flag carriers can go to hell :D

    Could we have various modes like we have with physics and everything else?

    And, should I finish my assault map, and are there any "starter" quake C things I could code to learn quake C for nexuiz? (And are there any tuts that are good?)
    take_this_cup_of_poison
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Sun Oct 05, 2008 3:12 am

  • Tribes = Win

    No flag carrier speed decrease, same systen as 2.4.2

    Gimping better players to balance the skills of those who are noobs is not cool in my book.
    Possibly not the worst mapper in the world.

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    Sepelio
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Sun Oct 05, 2008 5:28 am

  • Quake/UT maps with Nexuiz mechanics.
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Sun Oct 05, 2008 10:30 am

  • That is exactly what is BROKEN.
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Sun Oct 05, 2008 4:45 pm

  • This is a poll for the general method of fixing CTF, by changing the maps, or the game settings.

    Sepelio & alpha, please clarify your position, by using one of the follow voting options:

    Quake/UT Gameplay Mechanics
    Tribes Gameplay Mechanics
    Neutral/Undecided
    TVR
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Sun Oct 05, 2008 5:22 pm

  • I vote Nexuiz GPM.

    Slowing down the flag carrier was already voted 2/3 against it, was it not? Seriously, I love the system the way it is right now. With proper teamwork and communication Nexuiz GPM work well enough on the supposedly 'broken maps'. Once in a while in game, yes, you'll have someone score a flag with the laser in a few seconds but they have to plan that window!

    I don't think you're giving enough credit to the minds who create such a situation that they can score that quickly in a well organized match. They'll be flying in open air anyway, you have 3 seconds to hit your target, I hope you fired a rocket at the landing point to bide you more time.

    Punishing people that understand the game deeper than most will stunt creativity in movement. Don't put a governor on my Ferrari (reduce the carrier speed) because you're driving a Mercedes in a bad neighborhood (running around with your rocket launcher out near enemies camping snipers).

    I agree with asserting a liability to the flag but I believe it should be done with points.
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Sun Oct 05, 2008 5:43 pm

  • So do I, which is why I still consider an optiion like "+20 for cap, -5 for getting one's flag lost" good. Caps-only scoring of course makes such a penalty useless.

    But score for frags alone is bad to me.

    BTW, there is yet another idea.

    Let's start with "flag scores only", i.e. no mere frags. Also, make return scores punish the one who lost the flag. Kamikaze cappers should learn their lesson from that.

    Of course, kamikaze capping loses your team a defender, that may or may not outweigh successless runs. But that's nothing the kamikaze capper notices directly. Negative score when he loses flag and it gets returned sounds like exactly a good thing. If he gets a total of -23 points, he should think about what he has done wrong...

    Caps-only scoring and JUST showing personal scores will make them think "who cares, my team still got the cap".

    However, if we start with this proposed system, we can LATER switch to caps-only if people have learnt their lesson.

    Plus, the results of the running REAL poll (as opposed to this discussion thread) already hints to the solution the next release take:

    - Points only (no frags), full speed
    - a .cfg file to do caps only, reduced speed

    If people get used to the new points system, caps only with full speed may be then used in the release after that.
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    divVerent
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Sun Oct 05, 2008 6:03 pm

  • What you've just described is essentially the system I was going for with my scoring mechanics. Except, they lose points for picking it up and the enemy gains points for killing the fc or returning it.

    The solution for the next release sounds like a fair compromise.
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Sun Oct 05, 2008 8:13 pm

  • divVerent wrote:That is exactly what is BROKEN.


    No, it isn't. Where is it broken? It is just because most of the maps made for nexuiz suck. No curves and large open areas.

    Rocky Rampage was designed as a quake map and it is very good example of quake map playable on nexuiz.
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Sun Oct 05, 2008 8:53 pm

  • TVR wrote:This is a poll for the general method of fixing CTF, by changing the maps, or the game settings.

    Sepelio & alpha, please clarify your position, by using one of the follow voting options:

    Quake/UT Gameplay Mechanics
    Tribes Gameplay Mechanics
    Neutral/Undecided


    I have described what I want pretty accurate. If my "vote" does not fit into your poll, then your poll is incomplete and retarded.

    I did not like Quake.
    I did not like Unreal Tournament either.
    I don't have a clue about what the fuck Tribes is, and it's the first time I see this name.

    I like Nexuiz
    alpha
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Mon Oct 06, 2008 6:51 am

  • BTW, I like your suggestion to end the match when fraglimit/2 is reached as difference, but just almost. I would like to have that as a second cvar "fragdifferencelimit" too, so it can be combined with timelimit.
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Mon Oct 06, 2008 1:13 pm

  • Alpha, tribes is a game where you can basically have combat in the air. Its great fun, used to play tribes 2 it was awesome fun.

    And I think my point was clear with the tribes = win being in bold and all.
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    Sepelio
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Mon Oct 06, 2008 2:29 pm

  • Tribes 2 WAS fun, but the poll option also includes different map design, as stated in TVR's post.
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Mon Oct 06, 2008 3:09 pm

  • Played last tribes and didn't like it.
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Tue Oct 21, 2008 4:48 am

  • 
    [-z-] wrote:Slowing down the flag carrier was already voted 2/3 against it ...


    Attacker to Defender success ratio must weigh onto the side of the Defender for Quake/UT maps.

    Penalization of the flag carrier is the simplest method to balance the current maps, and a reduction in velocity is the simplest method to penalize the flag carrier.

    [-z-] wrote:Nexuiz GPM work well enough on the supposedly 'broken maps'.


    Whatever Nexuiz' current CTF GPMs works well upon, it certainly is not balance.

    The current valuation of single person antics is unacceptable for a team based game mode.

    alpha wrote:... If my "vote" does not fit into your poll, then your poll is incomplete and retarded. ...


    This poll is for which of the two most related style of fix one would prefer, should fixing CTF be initiated.

    Alien wrote:... No curves and large open areas. ...


    Curves impede everyone equally, whether it be increasing velocity, or attempting to frag a fleeing flag carrier.

    Alien wrote:... Rocky Rampage was designed as a quake map and it is very good example of quake map playable on nexuiz. ...


    However played in a similar manner to the majority of Nexuiz CTF maps, Quake/UT CTF maps require Quake/UT, not Tribes, game settings for balance.
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Tue Oct 21, 2008 5:20 am

  • I'm sorry, is this game too fast for you? You'll slow down the entire game if you slow down the carrier, I don't understand how you can think this is a good idea.

    Teams can win CTF matches very efficiently by having a skilled flag carrier that can swoop in while THEIR TEAMMATES hold off the enemy and help starve them of items.

    Everyone's not a quarterback, communism doesn't work.
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Tue Oct 21, 2008 5:38 am

  • [-z-] wrote:... You'll slow down the entire game if you slow down the carrier, I don't understand how you can think this is a good idea. ...


    Penalizing the flag carrier velocity is the simplest method to fix CTF, as which would tip the Attacker to Defender success ratio to the side of the Defender, and therefore match the current majority of maps.

    Keyhunt, however, does stand as CTF-like, but is perfectly balanced as is.
    TVR
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Tue Oct 21, 2008 5:44 am

  • TVR wrote:Penalizing the flag carrier velocity is the simplest method to fix CTF

    Citation needed.

    TVR wrote:as which would tip the Attacker to Defender success ratio to the side of the Defender

    Citation needed.

    TVR wrote:and therefore match the current majority of maps.

    Not really sure what this means but citation needed as well.
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Tue Oct 21, 2008 6:31 am

  • Another thing that has been tried and rejected by the players is showing where the flag (or the flag carrier) is through walls, as a penalty for the flag carrier.

    BTW, there will be an on-hand hook soon, that is, a grappling hook that works as a weapon so mappers can place it and not everyone becomes a hook monkey. Sure a nice thing for the FC to have, but just as nice for the pursuers to have.

    But the main addition is a secondary mode on that weapon which drops a low-damage gravity bomb. Anyone nearby (with a large range) is pulled into the explosion, so dropping the bomb while the flag carrier runs past you would impede him. On the other hand, a flag carrier can use it to irritate the defenders while entering the base. Still, it sounds like a nice weapon to impede FCs, or to get fast kills by switching to the nex immediately and firing at the impact point of that bomb. Think of it as a flashbang that also slows down people :)
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Tue Oct 21, 2008 11:00 am

  • divVerent wrote:But the main addition is a secondary mode on that weapon which drops a low-damage gravity bomb. Anyone nearby (with a large range) is pulled into the explosion, so dropping the bomb while the flag carrier runs past you would impede him. On the other hand, a flag carrier can use it to irritate the defenders while entering the base. Still, it sounds like a nice weapon to impede FCs, or to get fast kills by switching to the nex immediately and firing at the impact point of that bomb. Think of it as a flashbang that also slows down people :)


    is there a special bonus when we hang over a player with the primary and use the secondary ? :P
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Wed Oct 22, 2008 6:05 am

  • [-z-] wrote:
    TVR wrote:Penalizing the flag carrier velocity is the simplest method to fix CTF

    Citation needed.


    The majority of flag carrier advantages stem from the constant position ahead of pursuers due to constant acceleration, a reduction in flag carrier acceleration by weapon fire would allow the pursuers to surpass a fleeing flag carrier, and therefore negate the advantages from the lead position.

    [-z-] wrote:
    TVR wrote:as which would tip the Attacker to Defender success ratio to the side of the Defender


    TVR wrote:and therefore match the current majority of maps.


    Citation needed.


    Map design of Quake/UT style stipulates for an advantage to a Defender against a rushing Attacker, which emphasizes the need to control field pickups to mount a successful assault.
    TVR
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Wed Oct 22, 2008 6:21 am

  • I would like to add my 2 cents.

    I THINK, the biggest problem of nexuiz in CTF, is it's strength in DM, which is speed.

    Nexuiz is GREAT in DM because of it's speed. You are the lonely warrior, and you can learn to master the gameworld and take advantage of that speed.

    Now the same thing is the problem with CTF. People don't work together, simply because the game is too fast! Really. I mean, if you really play nexuiz the way it is meant to play with the laserjumping, bunny hopping etc, you are way to fast to have any team based tactics. You can only operate alone. i think this is the MAJOR problem of CTF in nexuiz. To somehow take away some speed, would increase teamplay and the fun factor. But it would not be nexuiz anymore.

    conclusion. I have no idea how to fix it in a way that keeps nexuiz DM the same, because nexuiz DM is the best thing you will ever find in DM, really.
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Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:15 am

  • TVR wrote:
    [-z-] wrote:
    TVR wrote:Penalizing the flag carrier velocity is the simplest method to fix CTF

    Citation needed.


    The majority of flag carrier advantages stem from the constant position ahead of pursuers due to constant acceleration, a reduction in flag carrier acceleration by weapon fire would allow the pursuers to surpass a fleeing flag carrier, and therefore negate the advantages from the lead position.

    Repeating your opinion doesn't count as a citation. Choosing to ignore that fact that your suggested "fix" will slow down the rest of the game only makes your argument stronger in your head. If players are capping flags at 50mph and they are lowered to 40mph, there is no way the can achieve the same amount of captures in the same amount of time.

    Repeating this: slowing down the flag carrier can break some trick jumps.
    TVR wrote:
    [-z-] wrote:
    TVR wrote:as which would tip the Attacker to Defender success ratio to the side of the Defender


    TVR wrote:and therefore match the current majority of maps.


    Citation needed.


    Map design of Quake/UT style stipulates for an advantage to a Defender against a rushing Attacker, which emphasizes the need to control field pickups to mount a successful assault.


    I'm not sure how this is different from Nexuiz. You need to keep collecting health and armor to avoid rot. Optimally, you do this while advancing the enemy.


    I think the problem is more perception than GPM.
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Thu Oct 23, 2008 3:15 am

  • [-z-] wrote:
    TVR wrote:
    [-z-] wrote:
    TVR wrote:Penalizing the flag carrier velocity is the simplest method to fix CTF

    Citation needed.


    The majority of flag carrier advantages stem from the constant position ahead of pursuers due to constant acceleration, a reduction in flag carrier acceleration by weapon fire would allow the pursuers to surpass a fleeing flag carrier, and therefore negate the advantages from the lead position.

    ... Choosing to ignore that fact that your suggested "fix" will slow down the rest of the game only makes your argument stronger in your head. ...


    If it is a fork between balance and pace of gameplay.

    The objective of Gameplay Mechanics is to entertain; granted balance being the most significant contributor, if the pace of gameplay determines whether two, or all of a given player count is entertained, then the choice for which entertains the majority shall be chosen.

    However, Keyhunt does both satisfy the majority and those who prefer quick pace of capture gameplay.

    [-z-] wrote:Repeating this: slowing down the flag carrier can break some trick jumps.


    Which is potential liability in proportion to a potential reward.

    [-z-] wrote:... If players are capping flags at 50mph and they are lowered to 40mph, ...


    For which the difficulty of a successful capture increases, thereby biasing the Attacker to Defender success ratio to the side of the Defender, a requirement of balanced UT/Quake map design concepts.

    [-z-] wrote:
    TVR wrote:Map design of Quake/UT style stipulates for an advantage to a Defender against a rushing Attacker, which emphasizes the need to control field pickups to mount a successful assault.


    ... I'm not sure how this is different from Nexuiz. You need to keep collecting health and armor to avoid rot. Optimally, you do this while advancing the enemy. ...


    The requirement of field pickups is diminished due to an Attacker already able to out-succeed a Defender without field pickups.
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Thu Oct 23, 2008 1:41 pm

  • You and I understand this game in totally different ways. While I'm constantly trying to push the limits, you're trying to dumb it down for everyone to play. I think by dumbing it down, people will do even less than they already do however and players that are challenging themselves will lose interest if you clip their wings.

    I prefer a challenge, not the mainstream hype.
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