Also, we have already seen that reducing the FC's speed, or penalizing him in another way, is not feasible. It's been tried out and met too much resistance. And we certainly won't do such a change against most of the current players. This thread had no reason to exist.

[-z-] wrote:... players that are challenging themselves will lose interest if you clip their wings. ...

There are feasible alternatives for those who prefer high-velocity flag runs with multiple pursuers futilely attempting to retrieve the flag, Warsow CTF, and Nexuiz Keyhunt.

divVerent wrote:... It's been tried out and met too much resistance. And we certainly won't do such a change against most of the current players. ...

As ultimately, the decision of settings is at the discretion of the particular server admin,.

Perhaps the base settings could be balanced for 'mainstream', while 'enthusiast' servers could modify it as seen fit.

Yeah awesome, lets get more fans by discouraging the hardcore guys, they can just go play other games instead. They are ~TOO GOOD FOR NEXUIZ~.

I think a feasible alternative is that you stop believing everyone thinks like you and listen to the statistics that have been repeated to you. People don't like the flag carrier reduction.

For good reasons too! One's that I don't care to repeat. However, I will re-emphasize the fact that we need to change mindsets.

The current solutions that exists are websites, specing, playing the bots and getting your ass kicked on public servers. Website aided (videos, demos, literature) and spectating education is a "pull method", meaning the user must seek to learn beyond regular game play. Leaving only playing bots and public servers.

Bots are not a good way to learn movement. Bots don't bunny hop, bots don't laser themselves, bots run awkward and they have annoyingly good knowledge (beyond awareness) and aim. They are not a very good teacher beyond the basics and target practice.

Play on public servers are thus to best method to advance in learning beyond the basics. The 2.4.2 flag scoring system gives the player 1 points for picking up the flag and does not punish them for dropping it. This translates to some as reaching a goal and doing something positive for the team, when in reality they are hurting their team. This is where the negative pickup acting as a deposit comes into play.

The deposit non-verbally asserts value to this object and much like children learn not to do bad things or they will get spanked, the negative value alerts the player that their "contribution" to the team wasn't really all that much. This forces them to understand beyond the literal translation of the title and into the depths of this game type.

And you're suggesting slowing down the flag carrier... so then new players will just die sooner walking back to base with the flag, even after some of the most respected players in the community have given their opinions against it?

Furthermore, you've fabricated information above that you were unable to defend with a proper citation. If you need to lie to defend your point, I think you already know your solution's whack.

[-z-] wrote:Yeah awesome, lets get more fans by discouraging the hardcore guys, they can just go play other games instead. They are ~TOO GOOD FOR NEXUIZ~.

I think a feasible alternative is that you stop believing everyone thinks like you and listen to the statistics that have been repeated to you. People don't like the flag carrier reduction.

For good reasons too! One's that I don't care to repeat. However, I will re-emphasize the fact that we need to change mindsets.

The current solutions that exists are websites, specing, playing the bots and getting your ass kicked on public servers. Website aided (videos, demos, literature) and spectating education is a "pull method", meaning the user must seek to learn beyond regular game play. Leaving only playing bots and public servers.

Bots are not a good way to learn movement. Bots don't bunny hop, bots don't laser themselves, bots run awkward and they have annoyingly good knowledge (beyond awareness) and aim. They are not a very good teacher beyond the basics and target practice.

Play on public servers are thus to best method to advance in learning beyond the basics. The 2.4.2 flag scoring system gives the player 1 points for picking up the flag and does not punish them for dropping it. This translates to some as reaching a goal and doing something positive for the team, when in reality they are hurting their team. This is where the negative pickup acting as a deposit comes into play.

The deposit non-verbally asserts value to this object and much like children learn not to do bad things or they will get spanked, the negative value alerts the player that their "contribution" to the team wasn't really all that much. This forces them to understand beyond the literal translation of the title and into the depths of this game type.

And you're suggesting slowing down the flag carrier... so then new players will just die sooner walking back to base with the flag, even after some of the most respected players in the community have given their opinions against it?

Furthermore, you've fabricated information above that you were unable to defend with a proper citation. If you need to lie to defend your point, I think you already know your solution's whack.

Z: I like that config that you are suggesting, Do you have a cfg file I can add to my server.cfg so CTF will work like that on my server. It will make flag runners use diffrent paths rather than just going from base to base mindlessly (and getting fragged 100000000000000000 times while doing it). But then again no one will use my server because it doesn't enable hook and they hate my maps (because you often can't go from base to base in a straight line (they're not space floaters):P)

it's in svn as ctfscoring-z.cfg

[-z-] wrote:... This translates to some as reaching a goal and doing something positive for the team, when in reality they are hurting their team. ...

Even with a flag return score of 1/4 the capture score, as the Attacker to Defender ratio is weighted on to the side of the Attacker, which a given attacker is more likely to capture than to fail against an equivalent Defender.

[-z-] wrote:And you're suggesting slowing down the flag carrier... so then new players will just die sooner walking back to base with the flag ...

The given Attacker is already more likely to succeed than to fail at a flag capture, but the current majority of maps cannot accommodate such in a balanced manner, therefore a handicap is required until the given Attacker is more likely to fail than to succeed.

Handicapping flag carrier acceleration is but a fix for a fraction of CTF GPMs, other issues include rewarding inefficiency by granting greater points for engaging an enemy after touching the flag, rather than as soon as possible.

[-z-] wrote:... Furthermore, you've fabricated information above that you were unable to defend with a proper citation. .

If you are to contest the validity of my analysis, I invite you to disprove it.

Relying on the credibility of the source is a logical fallacy, the source does not affect the validity of a statement.

lawl, I have disproved it, you just argue until people stop replying and call it a win.

I know thinking you're always right may work for you in your own world but when you start working with others, we need to find some common ground. The change you're in favor of is not that common ground.

kenji described the fast way to play nexuiz in the most concise way I've heard.

kenji wrote:I kinda like the concept of using a projectile weapon for jumping. It puts a new dynamic onto health, like health becomes fuel. If you want to rocket jump, it will cost you X amount of "fuel"

Understanding and challenging this fundamental movement concept will further your abilities as a Nexuiz player. And yes, it's a fabulous way to overtake even the fastest of flag carriers. 200 health can translate into 2 rocket jumps that'll get you closer than the target.

[-z-] wrote:... However, I will re-emphasize the fact that we need to change mindsets. ...

The mindset suggested is the willingness for every player other than the flag carriers, to accept the current unbalance, and to be entertained while doing so.

___________________________________

[-z-] wrote:... 200 health can translate into 2 rocket jumps that'll get you closer than the target. ...

TVR wrote:Rocket-jumping is required to only MATCH a rocket jumpers' velocity, however much more must be done by the pursuer when contrasted to the pursued.

The pursuer must deal damage with a weapon at an high velocity, while at the same time, using another weapon to boost velocity to match the escapee.

The pursued receives first preference of pickups, an advantage with weapons [as the attacker will have to run directly through a rocket's impact location, losing health & velocity, or directly through a field of electro balls in order to maintain distance with the pursued], and while pursuer loses velocity when fired upon, the pursued gains additional velocity from directed weapon fire.

___________________________________

Okay, well if the flag carrier has more health than you, than you and your team aren't working together very welcome because he just stole all your health and armor while stacking.

If I'm chasing the flag carrier and we run by a 100 armor but it's in a nook, if he's dumb enough to grab it, he'll be eating my 3 rocket sandwich. Otherwise, that's my 100 armor and that's my rocket past his slow ass.

I can think of a million other ways to catch up to the flag carrier. Mortars fly fast an far, aim one in front of him and catch him on a wall. Same with laser, laser them off their path. Alert your team with waypoints or other good communication.

The only thing that's stopping you from catching up with the flag carrier is your attitude that it's impossible. I know plenty of people that can catch a flag carrier, pavlvs, nifrek, gunha, kenji, red dragon, myself and many many more. Low and behold we all think of the health system as kenji detailed above.

[-z-] wrote:... Okay, well if the flag carrier has more health than you ...

The advantages of the flag carrier stem from the lead position in a pursuit, even with equal health, if pickups are not available to the flag carrier on the first pass, neither will pickups be available to the pursuer on the second pass.

___________________________________

[-z-] wrote:... If I'm chasing the flag carrier and we run by a 100 armor but it's in a nook, if he's dumb enough to grab it, he'll be eating my 3 rocket sandwich. ...

divVerent wrote:One point has been missed. ... a rocket the pursued fires to shoot at his pursuer reaches him FASTER than a rocket the pursuer fires at the flag carrier he's pursuing! ...

The flag carrier possesses a weapon advantage, the flag carrier's 'three rockets' will be more effective at halting the pursuer, than the pursuer's 'three rockets' for halting the flag carrier.

___________________________________

[-z-] wrote:... I know plenty of people that can catch a flag carrier, pavlvs, nifrek, gunha, kenji, red dragon, myself and many many more. ...

TVR wrote:An important factor is that the pursuer-pursued relation is reversed, intercepting a flag carrier requires more skill than it is to escape with the flag, simply because pursuit requires more work & effort in Nexuiz. To pursue one that is using a weapon to boost their velocity, one must match the target's velocity by boosting, as well as maintaining a steady aim and satisfactory damage to negate any health related pick-ups while continuing to whittle down their health at a sufficient rate, and optimally, not boosting their velocity far further.

It is about the disproportionate effort required to intercept a flag carrier in comparison to escaping with the flag.
___________________________________

TVR wrote:The advantages of the flag carrier stem from the lead position in a pursuit, even with equal health, if pickups are not available to the flag carrier on the first pass, neither will pickups be available to the pursuer on the second pass.

False, items respawn. It's very possibly that item can respawn after the flag carrier passes before the purser gets there.

TVR wrote:

[-z-] wrote:... If I'm chasing the flag carrier and we run by a 100 armor but it's in a nook, if he's dumb enough to grab it, he'll be eating my 3 rocket sandwich. ...

divVerent wrote:One point has been missed. ... a rocket the pursued fires to shoot at his pursuer reaches him FASTER than a rocket the pursuer fires at the flag carrier he's pursuing! ...

The flag carrier possesses a weapon advantage, the flag carrier's 'three rockets' will be more effective at halting the pursuer, than the pursuer's 'three rockets' for halting the flag carrier.

Yeah... but he'd have to be running backwards... so... disadvantage for that advantage.

TVR wrote:

[-z-] wrote:... I know plenty of people that can catch a flag carrier, pavlvs, nifrek, gunha, kenji, red dragon, myself and many many more. ...

TVR wrote:An important factor is that the pursuer-pursued relation is reversed, intercepting a flag carrier requires more skill than it is to escape with the flag, simply because pursuit requires more work & effort in Nexuiz. To pursue one that is using a weapon to boost their velocity, one must match the target's velocity by boosting, as well as maintaining a steady aim and satisfactory damage to negate any health related pick-ups while continuing to whittle down their health at a sufficient rate, and optimally, not boosting their velocity far further.

It is about the disproportionate effort required to intercept a flag carrier in comparison to escaping with the flag.
___________________________________

God forbid losing the flag I'm supposed to protect takes effort to return.

[-z-] wrote:... It's very possibly that item can respawn after the flag carrier passes before the purser gets there. ...

Given a 15 second pickup respawn time, a pursuit velocity of 800 QU/second, and the distance between pursued and pursuer of 1000 QU, there is a 1/12 chance an item will respawn in time for the pursuer after the pursued has passed.

[-z-] wrote:... God forbid losing the flag I'm supposed to protect takes effort to return. ...

Given defence is more difficult than attack [Tribes CTF], and given it takes more effort to retrieve the flag than it is to escape with the flag, it weighs the Attacker to Defender success ratio onto the side of the Attacker, which doesn't match up to the current majority of CTF maps [Quake/UT style] well.

TVR wrote:

[-z-] wrote:... It's very possibly that item can respawn after the flag carrier passes before the purser gets there. ...

Given a 15 second pickup respawn time, a pursuit velocity of 800 QU/second, and the distance between pursued and pursuer of 1000 QU, there is a 1/12 chance an item will respawn in time for the pursuer after the pursued has passed.

Really, density, number of teammates and the varying pickup times don't factor into your equation yet you say with the utmost pride "1/12 a chance".

Shinanigans.

[-z-] wrote:... God forbid losing the flag I'm supposed to protect takes effort to return. ...

Given defence is more difficult than attack [Tribes CTF], and given it takes more effort to retrieve the flag than it is to escape with the flag, it weighs the Attacker to Defender success ratio onto the side of the Attacker, which doesn't match up to the current majority of CTF maps [Quake/UT style] well.[/quote]

Other games didn't allow you to pack up 999/999 and use 3 different weapons to project yourself around the map. And Nexuiz is faster.

It comes down to creating the smallest, fastest patterns, shorting the time for 1) your armor/health to rot, 2) your enemies to get weapons or otherwise items.

I out run enemy flag carriers all the time to put the game in a stalemate until I or my teammates can kill him. I know I'm not the only one who does this either. Don't mistake this for the selfish flag sitters, this a strategic attack used as a last resort.

"I can't find the flag carrier, I'll race him back to the base"

[-z-] wrote:

TVR wrote:

[-z-] wrote:... It's very possibly that item can respawn after the flag carrier passes before the purser gets there. ...

Given a 15 second pickup respawn time, a pursuit velocity of 800 QU/second, and the distance between pursued and pursuer of 1000 QU, there is a 1/12 chance an item will respawn in time for the pursuer after the pursued has passed.

Really, density, number of teammates and the varying pickup times don't factor into your equation yet you say with the utmost pride "1/12 a chance".

15 * 800 = 12000

1000 / 12000 = 1/12

1/12 a chance at best, for a non-megahealth, 100 armour, or powerup [longer respawn times are more improbable] pickup to respawn immediately in the time between the flag carrier pass, and the pursuers' pass.

[-z-] wrote:I out run enemy flag carriers all the time to put the game in a stalemate until I or my teammates can kill him. I know I'm not the only one who does this either. Don't mistake this for the selfish flag sitters, this a strategic attack used as a last resort.

A Tribes CTF tactic, but significantly less effective on non-Tribes CTF maps.

Tribes-style CTF maps separate the flag and base, both bases are equivalent in distance to both flags, therefore a flag carrier sheltering in the team base 'turret area' during cross-capture is slightly disadvantaged to the opposing team, in time to reach flag when the flag is returned [proportional to the location within the base]. The opposing team is easily able retake the flag if the flag stand isn't controlled.

Quake/UT maps, however, situate the flag at the base, which grants impeccable advantage for the flag carrier to withstand retrieval attempts AND to score after the flag is returned, in comparison to the opposing team from the opposing base.

This relegates almost all action from the entire game, on to the flag carriers.

Which is unacceptable for team-based gameplay mechanics purposed to entertain.

TVR wrote:

[-z-] wrote:

TVR wrote:

[-z-] wrote:... It's very possibly that item can respawn after the flag carrier passes before the purser gets there. ...

Given a 15 second pickup respawn time, a pursuit velocity of 800 QU/second, and the distance between pursued and pursuer of 1000 QU, there is a 1/12 chance an item will respawn in time for the pursuer after the pursued has passed.

Really, density, number of teammates and the varying pickup times don't factor into your equation yet you say with the utmost pride "1/12 a chance".

15 * 800 = 12000

1000 / 12000 = 1/12

1/12 a chance at best, for a non-megahealth, 100 armour, or powerup [longer respawn times are more improbable] pickup to respawn immediately in the time between the flag carrier pass, and the pursuers' pass.

You've obviously never take a statistics class because your argument is completely skewed. You're looking at a single item and assuming a constant speed. You can't oversimplify it like that. There are many items that get picked up at different times and there's even the chance the flag carrier willingly won't pick it up. If you're hopping around the map doing item strings this isn't a problem anyway, you just plan a route around the flag carrier to cut him off.

TVR wrote:

[-z-] wrote:I out run enemy flag carriers all the time to put the game in a stalemate until I or my teammates can kill him. I know I'm not the only one who does this either. Don't mistake this for the selfish flag sitters, this a strategic attack used as a last resort.

A Tribes CTF tactic, but significantly less effective on non-Tribes CTF maps.

Tribes-style CTF maps separate the flag and base, both bases are equivalent in distance to both flags, therefore a flag carrier sheltering in the team base 'turret area' during cross-capture is slightly disadvantaged to the opposing team, in time to reach flag when the flag is returned [proportional to the location within the base]. The opposing team is easily able retake the flag if the flag stand isn't controlled.

Quake/UT maps, however, situate the flag at the base, which grants impeccable advantage for the flag carrier to withstand retrieval attempts AND to score after the flag is returned, in comparison to the opposing team from the opposing base.

This relegates almost all action from the entire game, on to the flag carriers.

Which is unacceptable for team-based gameplay mechanics purposed to entertain.

You like to underline random words to emphasize the fact that you're trying to treat the physics of Nexuiz like you do in other games. That doesn't give your argument more substance, it just further proves you aren't trying to understand the way you can push the limits in Nexuiz.

Play smarter not harder.

[-z-] wrote:... You're looking at a single item and assuming a constant speed. You can't oversimplify it like that. ...

Is the averaged speed reasonable?

[-z-] wrote:... There are many items that get picked up at different times ...

1/12 for every item, is it not?

[-z-] wrote:... and there's even the chance the flag carrier willingly won't pick it up ...

If there is a chance the flag carrier may avoid a specific pickup, consequently there is also an equal chance the pursuer may avoid a specific pickup.

[-z-] wrote:... you just plan a route around the flag carrier to cut him off ...

Given a constant acceleration rate shared by both the pursued and pursuer, any lead the flag carrier has will be maintained through different routes.

[-z-] wrote:... you're trying to treat the physics of Nexuiz like you do in other games. ...

The particular manner of movement is merely an abstract concept of increasing acceleration, both games share this concept, but the map design differs.

[-z-] wrote:... you aren't trying to understand the way you can push the limits in Nexuiz.

Regardless, it is not but the abstract concept of travelling quicker & quicker, which is permitted to both the pursuer and pursued, thus constant pursuit distance, hence constant advantages to the pursued.

I'm not even going to bother arguing this anymore because you refuse to believe the flag carrier can ever lose speed or make a mistake and that he'll withhold his advantage even when opportunities arise for the purser to overtake him.

As I said before, we think about the game differently. Your style will work against others playing your style but play against some of the players I've named above and your techniques will fail.

If I'm holding an average of 200/200 health/armor because of the way I move and stack, I'm at a clear advantage over your slow moving 100/100.


I have hundreds of demos that prove your logic wrong.

This argument is going nowhere.

You both, TVR and [-z-], are totally incapable to accept others having a different opinion than yours. Both of you do have valid points, but both of you refuse to accept anything the other writes. Both of you consider yourselves the most intelligent person on the world, and everyone having a different view than yours must consequently be stupid - according to you two.

Can you please stop with that? This so much looks like Usenet now.

For the record I don't think I'm always right nor the most intelligent person in the world. I listen to critique but when someone's telling me something is not possible when I have evidence that proves otherwise, I will not let them spread such untruths without a fight.

I welcome anyone to play Nexuiz however they please. The Ninjaz exist for players to push the limits of the game. While I don't expect all players to play this way, I'd like people to be informed on the possibilities. Pretending such possibilities don't or shouldn't exist is narrow minded and it pisses me off that TVR would tell such players to "go to Warsow".

Theory is largely responsible for improvement in my skills. I'm just trying to dispel the myths in this thread backed up by said theory. These tactics are only hard because it's easy. This theory allows you to create smaller patterns with less variables, meaning less chances of failure.

The thing you fail to see: there is more than one way to "push the limits".

And not every way that "pushes the limits" should be appreciated, as some of these ways may simply defeat the purpose of the game, or may be outright unfair.

I won't write publicly WHAT exactly we were talking about on IRC, but you did say it is perfectly valid to use means to improve your playing that are illegal in many countries, while I am of the opinion that playing fair means not taking advantages that are not feasible for everyone to use.

Quoting Kant's Categorical Imperative: "Act only according to that maxim whereby you can at the same time will that it should become a universal law."

Now applying this to using means that are illegal in some (not necessarily including your) country. If you do that, you must will that it should become "common" to do that. Do you really want more than half of the Nexuiz players to become criminals for what you were advocating? Or do you finally realize that what you were advocating is NOT the same as "using a bigger mouse pad", quoting you?

Now back to the topic. Being insanely fast, running home alone with the FC. Is that really the purpose of a TEAM game? I don't care that YOU can do it. But if that became "universal law", it'd mean everyone just plays for himself. Do you really want that?

No, you actually don't, as you proposed a scoring system to drive players away from that, albeit very successful, path. If players get irritated by negative scores and change their behaviour, your solution works. If players think a step further, they'll see that only captures count, and start playing the same way as before, ignoring their negative score, and bringing home every 10th flag. To minimize that, you count on peer pressure, as in, players vote kicking players who have a bad negative score, EVEN IF THEY ACTUALLY CAPPED OFTEN. That's a mighty negative force you are toying with, and one I don't want to see on my server.

The last thing I want to happen to Nexuiz is kick votes becoming the norm for the smallest "offences" like, just being not a good player. I want the Nexuiz community stay friendly, and not as harsh as the Warsow or - even worse - the Tremulous one. Kick votes have their place, but should be used only for "strong offenses" like ACTUALLY harming your team more than just by taking up a player slot and throwing off team balance (note that team balance can be still good if the other team has a noob TOO), e.g. by team killing, chatting all the time and REFUSING TO BECOME A SPECTATOR AFTER BEING WARNED (yes, warnings still have to be spoken out, immediate kick vote is the wrong way to go), or kick votes can be used against really bad offences like hurting the atmosphere on the server by insulting everyone on the server, or abusing the vote system for selfish purposes.

However, kick votes should NEVER be used to punish someone who has another view on the game than you do. If he does not care for personal score but brings team score home (i.e. captures), let him do that.

So hereby announce that I will kickban people who start kick votes against others for merely having a bad score. Yes, even if it is you (although you do not play on my servers, so this is no issue). And I recommend any server admin to do the same.

Back to the main topic of this thread: [-z-]'s suggestion to fix CTF mostly does work, and is being tried on my server for weeks now. Teamplay did improve, without doing harsh things like kick votes for large negative scores. If it stays that way, fine. But let's see what happens if players get used to the system more.

Therefore, [-z-]'s way to fix the CTF problem should be considered another option to fix CTF, and be included in TVR's poll.

Therefore, the third variant is:

[-z-]'s way: keep gameplay mechanics as is, keep maps as is, but use a per-player scoring system that "looks" like it punishes sole successless capture runs.

divVerent wrote:The last thing I want to happen to Nexuiz is kick votes becoming the norm for the smallest "offences" like, just being not a good player

If I knew more about quakec, I would circumvent this with a:

Code: Select all

PSEUDO CODE

$scorelimit_to_force_spec = -20;

if ($score < $scorelimit_to_force_spec) {
   force_spec($nick)
}

function force_spec($nick) {
   set $nick spec
   msg $nick "You're actions are negatively affecting your team, please spectate for 5 minutes and try to get a better understanding of how to play this game type."
}


That's just as harsh. Against.

divVerent wrote:That's just as harsh. Against.

You should watch more animal planet.

I think it's far less punishment than getting votekick banned. If the player's refusing to learn, guide them. 5 minutes ANNND a message that tells them why they were forced to spec is much kinder than a group of people teaming up to say "GTFO".

It sure IS less, but it is still wrong. Also, every normal player would simply DISCONNECT when such a message comes. Not being allowed to play for 5 whole minutes is far too much (and IMHO also why arena and LMS are not played).

Ok, it seems that after one month of arguing nexuiz mo...asterminds can't still stop. There is no need to change anything. Personally I could even go for ONLY CAPS count NO BOOST reduce for 3.0 as default mode if map makers will make ctf maps which fit nexuiz (3.0 because good maps need time to be made). Trying to adapt nexuiz to current maps is WRONG.

Trying to build a basic map design concept is much better way than this arguing bs. Actually, it only shows how stupid it is that you can't stop after one month of useless typing.

Ok, several principles of probably good CTF map design:

1) Symmetry
2) No one large open area without obstacles, you can't shoot/fly from one base to the other
3) Flag should be deep inside the base (current example mikectf).
4) Each base should have multiple routes inside, yet the ways out of them should be well known and merge in the centre of the map, that the both teams could know where to deploy their forces instantly(moonstone, ctctf6, mikectf)
5) Spawn points should be distributed equally around the base and not in one specific area (so that even recently respawned player could have a chance to kill the fc).
6) Maps should always have roofs to prevent running over buildings - speedcapping.
7) Instead of 90 degrees corners, all turns should be curved. This would let you keep the speed of bunnyhopping or use new hook.
8) Space maps shouldn't be made as two floating bases across each other. Good example would be mentalrespaced with central platform and floating one removed and gasoline_powered style bunkers between each of the side platforms, which (bunkers) would block vision and prevent camping.
9) Map layout which would be easy to remember also helps (moving through various pipes, secret rooms, dark chambers or labyrinths doesn't make map good and annoy most of the new players who find it hard to play, remember, find the exit).
10) Trick-jumping should not be made as the only way to get somewhere or take smth. All things should be reached on foot. These could be reached quicker using trickjumps so it will provide incentive to learn tricks, while still letting new players take items in the old fashioned way.
11) Push pads shouln't be abused.

Considering all these points I mentioned, there is no point in boost reducing for fc.

Banning, kicking, not allowing to play for other players because they don't know how to play is lame. It's definitely better to have a password system then.

Personal scores should be counted as I suggested previously long time ago or similar way (I'm not saying that you need to have MY score system, but similar one would work the best way). This would work like q3 system, where personal score is shown, but it doesn't decide the winner of the game.

Have you ever wondered why q3 didn't have one large open area CTF map designs? Because people would abuse rl like laser and rl are abused now in nexuiz.

There is no need to invent bike when it is already invented. I suppose epic and idsoftware actually invested in researching which game mode works the best (having large army of betatesters, collecting statistics, while you think that your new untested game mode will make a REVOLUTION).

EDIT: I would call all this thread the f&$#@ theatre of brainwashing SOPHISM, where you argue not for the sake of truth, but to be the f#$#@# winners, the last posters.

I agree to most of your points, but:

mappers want to make open maps, with terrain.

I hate such maps, but mappers want to make them, and they WILL make them, no matter if gameplay on them is good or not.

No, good mappers won't. Bad mappers would, but does anyone care about bad maps?

Firstly, dp sucks at open maps. It's not dp fault but dp was not designed for this. If you can't make good open map (good are sev's or cluefull newbs maps), why bother at all.
These open maps are the state of ART, but not very useful for actual gameplay. You tend to lose focus looking at the pretiness and of course they tend to drop fps alot on slower pcs.

Secondly, nexuiz community has a lot of very good mappers. Currently they were focusing into dm, but maybe everything will change, cause nexuiz already has a lot of good dm maps. Maybe organizing contest like ctf map of the month would help and somehow awarding the winners. Look how good morphed contest went (even lurking I read everything).

Thirdly, pure terrain maps are borring. Why? I'm not going to cite mikeusa. His post should be somewhere around.

Nice open maps should be much bigger than they are now. Consequently, they would require some convenient means of transportation. All games having nice large open maps had some means of transportation (far cry 1-2, hl2, >= ut2004, bhd, halo).

Finally, and the most important thing nexuiz is (was?) old school shooter. Of course, it can change, but old school means came, saw, made a pile of gibs and not picked up a tank or camped while hidden in the bushes.

I know you felt passionate about your post but I don't appreciate being called "stupid" for defending my view on CTF and trying to dispel the myth that slowing the flag carrier down will "fix ctf".

Everyone's entitled to their own opinion, yourself included but if you start off with an insult and back it up with some uniformed bullshit you pull out of your ass, you sir are the one who's looking "stupid".

I did a lot of research on my scoring system, a lot of theory and TESTING, even divVerent has contested it has had results. So why not shove your "idSoftware didn't do it, so it can't be good" comment back up your ass and contemplate for yourself how it would affect gameplay.

I hate that "the top guy in the market didn't do it so it can't be good" attitude. I worked at a world wide corporation that built their IT infrastructure based off their competitors choices and they were losing thousands of dollars a day because of this poor decision. A little in-house R&R goes a long way. Especially when it's done by people who live and breath the products they represent...

That's a wonderful list about maps but this thread isn't labeled "how to make good ctf maps" and we aren't arguing about the maps (at least not any more).

Personal scores should be counted as I suggested previously long time ago or similar way (I'm not saying that you need to have MY score system, but similar one would work the best way). This would work like q3 system, where personal score is shown, but it doesn't decide the winner of the game.

WOW, agreeing with my scoring system!

Have you ever wondered why q3 didn't have one large open area CTF map designs? Because people would abuse rl like laser and rl are abused now in nexuiz.

Space maps...?

EDIT: I would call all this thread the f&$#@ theatre of brainwashing SOPHISM, where you argue not for the sake of truth, but to be the f#$#@# winners, the last posters.

How the hell have my arguments not been truth? I've simply been trying to open the unbudging TVR to the idea that playing smarter by utilizing projectiles is a solution.

I have agreed with TVR before, just not on this.

FPS shooters are played 20 years, CTF is 10 years old. Do you really think that your idea or TVR's ideas are somehow innovative? If you dig up various quake mods for various versions you'll see lots of CTF improvement mods. Somehow, none of them become popular and made to next retail version of game and... maybe there is a reason for this, don't you think so?

I've called this thread stupid and not aimed at anyone personally. Haven't you both noticed that you argue for all month alone? Like two children who could not share the same toy.

About q3 ctf maps:
http://planetquake.gamespy.com/View.php ... etail&id=5

The only ONE space map which is called SPACE CTF. Of course, Nexuiz has a remade, which is basically run and cap. This only shows that Nexuiz needs are special and not all q3 rips work.

I don't remember whether TA added more space maps. Maybe.

How the hell have my arguments not been truth? I've simply been trying to open the unbudging TVR to the idea that playing smarter by utilizing projectiles is a solution.

This is not related to CTF at all. Go back to the previous thread and argue again (about that rl jump thing). Being so sure about own righteousness can easily lead to blind arrogance.