That's an over-simplified pessimistic view on the situation. Sure there are plenty of people in here offering help just to say they offered but on the flip-side there are capable people lurking, trying to understand and learn more about what's involved before volunteering.

Mute Print wrote:I have expressed an interest in designing website graphics, promo art, etc.
_________________
annoying, flashy banners! buy stuff you don't need! and the new pollution.

How well the signature fits to the text. But not really sure if we need annoying, flashy banners...

take_this_cup_of_poison wrote:So to recap this discussion:

Div: I'm the sole code dev, everyone else has left, I can't do this by myself, if more people don't dev I'll leave.

EveryoneElse: I would LIKE to dev, Some of us are even CAPABLE of deving... but nexuiz is not on any radars of importance and can go to hell and die. Oh and here's a list of DEMANDS for "the devs" (Div0) to implement! Thank's for the free beer!!!111

What will likely be next?
Maybe "I see that no one cares about nexuiz enough to take any time to help develope it, so I will not develop it further either, good by KIDDIES. Enjoy desecrating the corpse as you couldn't RESPECT the living."

Being a dick about things isn't going to help the situation any.

Shoe wrote:

take_this_cup_of_poison wrote:So to recap this discussion:

Div: I'm the sole code dev, everyone else has left, I can't do this by myself, if more people don't dev I'll leave.

EveryoneElse: I would LIKE to dev, Some of us are even CAPABLE of deving... but nexuiz is not on any radars of importance and can go to hell and die. Oh and here's a list of DEMANDS for "the devs" (Div0) to implement! Thank's for the free beer!!!111

What will likely be next?
Maybe "I see that no one cares about nexuiz enough to take any time to help develope it, so I will not develop it further either, good by KIDDIES. Enjoy desecrating the corpse as you couldn't RESPECT the living."

Being a dick about things isn't going to help the situation any.

That's correct. Only the 'community' helping Div and friends out will help the situation. The 'community' has shown no _interest__ nor ability to help (including me). Those who can help have come onto this thread to inform eveyone of all the things that are more important to them in life then helping out nexuiz for some reason (if the answer is "yes I could help.... but nexuiz is not something I will __WastE__ time on"... well what was the point of even answering the request other than to discorage Div even more?.

Weather one lies, or one tells the truth in a recap of the discussion will not make the 'community' help the game it 'loves'. Nothing will. The community is not interested in assisting nexuiz or Div or anyone else. Once nexuiz is dead they will just move on to the next game.

It's sad. Other OSS vid games have helpful communities. Why can't nexuiz have such? Why do we just have players? We, the Nexuiz community only demand features, post idiotic "first to 1000th piss" threads on the general forum, and complain when a server isn't using hook... oh and make "concept art"...
...
None of that helps nexuiz. We are leaches (I include myself, and almost every nexuiz player save a handful that have contributed).

I don't know if you know it but real life IS more important than helping out a free game. You don't gain too much out of making stuff for free without getting paid back properly. If you can help out that's great. I'm trying to help out the best I can with models. This month have not been good to me in that regard as I had a LOT of work beside. However, next month I'll get more time.
But badmouthing the community for not helping out just because they have more important stuff to do is NOT the way to go about it.
This might come as a surprise to you but, most people like more to play a game than making a game. Cause even people who are totally uninterested in game creation still play games.

Please be nice and stop talking bad about the community and the players.

divVerent wrote:

Mute Print wrote:I have expressed an interest in designing website graphics, promo art, etc.
_________________
annoying, flashy banners! buy stuff you don't need! and the new pollution.

How well the signature fits to the text. But not really sure if we need annoying, flashy banners...

Oh no div, my signature's text is satirical. My skills are in the area of graphic design and I am willing to contribute in that department. Unfortunately, I do not know enough about coding--nor does my current situation allow me the time to learn--to be useful as a developer.

ai wrote:I don't know if you know it but real life IS more important than helping out a free game. You don't gain too much out of making stuff for free without getting paid back properly. If you can help out that's great. I'm trying to help out the best I can with models. This month have not been good to me in that regard as I had a LOT of work beside. However, next month I'll get more time.
But badmouthing the community for not helping out just because they have more important stuff to do is NOT the way to go about it.
This might come as a surprise to you but, most people like more to play a game than making a game. Cause even people who are totally uninterested in game creation still play games.

Please be nice and stop talking bad about the community and the players.

It does come as a suprise to me. I like making maps FAR more than playing any game. Same with coding in perl.

Not to say playing isn't fun when you have a group of people who communicate.
Best if you have phone chat with them.

I don't see why "real life" is so much more important. Building things have always been higher priority than whatever else is "real". Oh and as for wanting to get paied... you didn't have to pay to PLAY the game... so why complain when you don't PAYED when you contrib to the game. That's taking without giving (not including you and a few others)C, you do some things). It IS unfortunate that that is all the nexuiz community is capable of.

That's what I see from the outside looking in anyway.
Most people just can't find the time to "waste" on nexuiz...
so why should Div waste HIS time implementing what the players want when NO ONE even those capable will help code nexuiz? Why shouldn't Div go and do REAL LIFE(TM) like most of the rest here do?

Why should he wast his time on people who won't waste their time? Maybe he shouldn't...

You know that people have different tastes and different opinions. Some people like to play games, other like to create them. That's the same thing with 'real life'. Some people just might not care about their 'real life' or value it as much as anything else. If people have a kid(s) and a wife, I bet most of them would like to spend time with them and not play games or do stuff for games all the time. So for them real life would be more important.
I don't really know what to say as it should be common sense that all people don't think and prioritize alike.
Div work with Nexuiz cause obviously he likes doing it, but not if everything falls on him though.

And about being payed. Some people are greedy and some people don't want to spend much time doing work for free. The whole world circles around money, so it's just obvious that people want that and need that to make a living. If you do stuff for free all the time you're soon out in the forest eating roots and berries.

ai wrote:You know that people have different tastes and different opinions. Some people like to play games, other like to create them. That's the same thing with 'real life'. Some people just might not care about their 'real life' or value it as much as anything else. If people have a kid(s) and a wife, I bet most of them would like to spend time with them and not play games or do stuff for games all the time. So for them real life would be more important.
I don't really know what to say as it should be common sense that all people don't think and prioritize alike.
Div work with Nexuiz cause obviously he likes doing it, but not if everything falls on him though.

And about being payed. Some people are greedy and some people don't want to spend much time doing work for free. The whole world circles around money, so it's just obvious that people want that and need that to make a living. If you do stuff for free all the time you're soon out in the forest eating roots and berries.

I don't live in a forest eating berries. I also only use and contrib to OSS projects. The money saved is greater than the money "lost".

take_this_cup_of_poison wrote:I don't live in a forest eating berries.

That was a joke.

take_this_cup_of_poison wrote:I also only use and contrib to OSS projects. The money saved is greater than the money "lost".

This is where greed and/or other factors come into play. Some people like to contribute, others don't (for various reasons).

EDIT: From the other thread:

take_this_cup_of_poison wrote:When the community takes without giving this "fun" happens. Same with development of the game and engine. No one ever has "time". The original devs had "time"... why cant the peeps here have "time"?.

To be perfectly honest, it's not the community's responsibility to keep the project going. Just because I use Linux, Windows, various applications, play various games, doesn't mean I have the responsibility to keep it going and contribute with work.
Now I'm not saying the community SHOULDN'T help out. Everyone would love for people to help out, I'm just saying it's not their responsibility. So stop badmouthing the community. Your negativity doesn't help and in fact may work in the opposite way, pushing volunteers away as you blame them for the "possible doom of Nexuiz".
You should inspire people to help out, not trying to make them feel like they have to.

In the opensource world there is no diffrence between a dev and a user except what they have contributed. Div etc were once players but then got into coding, media creation, etc... so to say that the community is not resposible for the development of the game is a lie. The game is developed by the community, since the community does not wish to contribute to nexuiz nexuiz will no longer be developed.

To be perfectly honest, it's not the community's responsibility to keep the project going.

You echo the opinion of the vast majority of nexuiz users it seems.
Nexuiz will die by that.

But again, scare tactics aren't what build communities. You're attitude is aiding the problem, not the solution.

You campaigned for a week which is quite helpful but don't get so discourage if it doesn't result in instant gratification. Open source is about building relationships, with your users, with the devs, with other projects and potentials.

No one's going to want to build a relationship with a person that consistently attacks the community out of a lack of patience.

There are better ways to motivate people. Lighten up.

take_this_cup_of_poison wrote:In the opensource world there is no diffrence between a dev and a user except what they have contributed. Div etc were once players but then got into coding, media creation, etc... so to say that the community is not resposible for the development of the game is a lie. The game is developed by the community, since the community does not wish to contribute to nexuiz nexuiz will no longer be developed.

To be perfectly honest, it's not the community's responsibility to keep the project going.

You echo the opinion of the vast majority of nexuiz users it seems.
Nexuiz will die by that.

No, what I said is the truth. It's not the community's responsibility to help out. Open source projects allow and invite people to help out but not force a responsibility to the user to contribute, that wouldn't be 'open' anymore in such case. Does Linux force me to contribute to their projects just cause I use their OS:es? If the answer is 'Yes' then I have TOTALLY misunderstood the open source community.
I have yet to receive an email from the devs over at Ubuntu and Linux Mint that says: "It has come to our attention that you use our product that of which we develop. You are as of this moment obliged to help out and contribute. If you do not oblige you must seize to use the product immediately!"

I'll say it again just to make it clear: Open source projects ALLOW and INVITE the community to help out, NOT force responsibility. That is also one of the reasons why there are words such as 'developers' and 'community' in the open source world. If you do not agree with this then I'm a developer of every open source project out there without me knowing it.
I hope you understand this a bit better now.

You obviously are misunderstanding it, or phrasing it wrongly.

"True" open source projects are projects developed BY THE COMMUNITY. And Nexuiz should be like that.

Linux is different, it is developed by big companies like IBM or Red Hat. Only a minor fraction of the kernel developers does NOT contribute as part of their employment. So Linux CAN survive without help from the "community" of users, simply because it is still backed by multiple big companies.

Nexuiz is NOT that way, but it is a true community project which is backed by no company. I am getting no single cent for my involvement, while most kernel, Firefox, OpenOffice etc. developers do. Without support of the community, it'd simply die out.

Actually, it is the other way round - Nexuiz is actually PAID FOR by some of the developers, e.g. hosting costs money, and the donations far from suffice to pay for that - and we don't even have unlimited traffic, so we can't post beta builds or releases directly on alientrap.org but have to use the (nowadays) ad-ridden nagsite Sourceforge or my server standing at university for that.

Yeah, I know all that, and we're basically saying the same thing there Div, or at least mean it. And I know the community develops Nexuiz (that's a given). All I'm saying is that, even though it is the community who develops these (open source) games, there is no responsibility to the community to contribute. Thus talking bad about the community, blaming them and getting angry at them is not the right way to go. (That's actually at the same level as that one guy coming here and demanding that Alientrap should create an MMORPG for him and dissing Alientrap when they don't want to do that.)

Btw, Linux was just one example which I knew was far away from what Nexuiz is (and possibly a bad one), that's why I also mentioned other open source games, such as Warsow, Open Arena etc. As they are more to the path of Nexuiz. So I change it instead to this: If you download and play Warsow (and enjoy playing it), are you obliged to contribute?

You did not understand. The COMMUNITY (seen as a single entity) is obligated to contribute - the INDIVIDUALS are not.

In the end it means that it suffices of SOME of the community contribute.

And yes, Warsow is much more active in development, mainly because they have good artists which does spark more interest in coders too. They really gain a lot of support because their artwork is not licensed under a free license, because most artists refuse to give content under a license that allows others to take their art without asking such as the GPL.

In my head, as I see it, a community are the individuals. When I hear community I see people, not a single entity. That's just me though and it may differ from the actual 'technical' term. But an individual that comprises of the community not contributing is still part of the community.

Lool, oh well. I think we've not only killed the horse but we've also beaten the dead horse a couple of times too, with this conversation. There's nothing more to be gained from it.
The bottom line:
We all want people to help out with Nexuiz.
Mike's way to go about and trying to get people involved is wrong
I'm hungry and
I'm going to the store to buy some stuff.

If the community helps then Nexuiz continues in development and lives.
If the community refuses to help then Nexuiz does not continue in development and dies.
.: The community is responsible for the fate of Nexuiz.

ai wrote:In my head, as I see it, a community are the individuals. When I hear community I see people, not a single entity. That's just me though and it may differ from the actual 'technical' term. But an individual that comprises of the community not contributing is still part of the community.

Lool, oh well. I think we've not only killed the horse but we've also beaten the dead horse a couple of times too, with this conversation. There's nothing more to be gained from it.

Copping out of the conversation by declaring "Mission Accomplished".

The bottom line:
We all want people to help out with Nexuiz.

We all say we want people to help out with Nexuiz. Very few of us decide to be those people. That is the problem. We all want things but most of us _Refuse_ to lend a hand. We have One One ONE ___ONE___ code dev. ONE!!!!

Mike's way to go about and trying to get people involved is wrong

Ah, Emailing people in the field informing them about Nexuiz is the wrong way to go aboot it? I agree, it hasn't done much. It would be better if I made something for nexuiz like code or models, but I'm similar to the rest of the players... no contributions but tons of suggestions! (and demands).

I'm hungry and
I'm going to the store to buy some stuff.

You could buy some soda, let it process, and then contribute to one of the wonderful community driven threads in the general forum. One about "1000 something about liquid expulsion countdown".

I hope they don't make a thread about processing solid foods next.


Div: I've collected up, modified, and made a bunch of GPL textures (aswell as other opensource (real opensource, not "non commercial" stuff the artists elsewhere in other projects "contribute**") textures under https://cat2.optus.nu/cat2/media.html#NEXUIZMAPS . I've started to make some bumpmaps for some of the textures I created. There's really an OSS texture for anything one would need now I think... and since the egyptian textures were GPLd... well nexuiz will certainly be on par with UT one atleast in terms of variety.

The more textures are GPLd the more variants of them there are... and the more they are used for the basis of other textures and textures for models etc... I think we're pulling ahead of warsow and alien arena in the texture department. The maps of nexuiz certainly are better in quality.

**I don't think if someone contributes proprietary, non-commercial, class-based-warfare-licensed media... well how is that contributing?

If the community helps then Nexuiz continues in development and lives.
If the community refuses to help then Nexuiz does not continue in development and dies.
.: The community is responsible for the fate of Nexuiz.

ai wrote:In my head, as I see it, a community are the individuals. When I hear community I see people, not a single entity. That's just me though and it may differ from the actual 'technical' term. But an individual that comprises of the community not contributing is still part of the community.

Lool, oh well. I think we've not only killed the horse but we've also beaten the dead horse a couple of times too, with this conversation. There's nothing more to be gained from it.

Copping out of the conversation by declaring "Mission Accomplished".

The bottom line:
We all want people to help out with Nexuiz.

We all say we want people to help out with Nexuiz. Very few of us decide to be those people. That is the problem. We all want things but most of us _Refuse_ to lend a hand. We have One One ONE ___ONE___ code dev. ONE!!!!

Mike's way to go about and trying to get people involved is wrong

Ah, Emailing people in the field informing them about Nexuiz is the wrong way to go aboot it? I agree, it hasn't done much. It would be better if I made something for nexuiz like code or models, but I'm similar to the rest of the players... no contributions but tons of suggestions! (and demands).

I'm hungry and
I'm going to the store to buy some stuff.

You could buy some soda, let it process, and then contribute to one of the wonderful community driven threads in the general forum. One about "1000 something about liquid expulsion countdown".

I hope they don't make a thread about processing solid foods next.


Div: I've collected up, modified, and made a bunch of GPL textures (aswell as other opensource (real opensource, not "non commercial" stuff the artists elsewhere in other projects "contribute**") textures under https://cat2.optus.nu/cat2/media.html#NEXUIZMAPS . I've started to make some bumpmaps for some of the textures I created. There's really an OSS texture for anything one would need now I think... and since the egyptian textures were GPLd... well nexuiz will certainly be on par with UT one atleast in terms of variety.

The more textures are GPLd the more variants of them there are... and the more they are used for the basis of other textures and textures for models etc... I think we're pulling ahead of warsow and alien arena in the texture department. The maps of nexuiz certainly are better in quality.

**I don't think if someone contributes proprietary, non-commercial, class-based-warfare-licensed media... well how is that contributing?

1st, you might remove your double post.
2nd, what ai meant with "Mike's way to go about and trying to get people involved is wrong" wasn't you sending the emails (that was a good thing regardless how much success it has/had) but you griping all the time. For me you start repeating yourself, and you even started to spread that negative attitude among other threads which gets annoying. Please no more posts from you that the individuals are so lazy and (thats how it reads) want nexuiz to die. We all know that you think this, no need to repeat anymore. However, I think you will repeat it anyway.

take_this_cup_of_poison wrote:Copping out of the conversation by declaring "Mission Accomplished".

I have no idea what you just said. But I stand by my comment

take_this_cup_of_poison wrote:We all say we want people to help out with Nexuiz. Very few of us decide to be those people. That is the problem. We all want things but most of us _Refuse_ to lend a hand.

Yeah?

take_this_cup_of_poison wrote:We have One One ONE ___ONE___ code dev. ONE!!!!

I'm sorry, how many did we have? 4 - I.e. Four?

take_this_cup_of_poison wrote:Ah, Emailing people in the field informing them about Nexuiz is the wrong way to go aboot it? I agree, it hasn't done much. It would be better if I made something for nexuiz like code or models, but I'm similar to the rest of the players... no contributions but tons of suggestions! (and demands).

Now you assume things. I didn't mean the email thing. I meant the thing that I have been talking about most recently, you badmouthing the community, hating, cursing and attacking them (verbally) for not helping out. That's the kind of "help" I was referring to that we do not need or want. So PLEASE stop that!

take_this_cup_of_poison wrote:You could buy some soda, let it process, and then contribute to one of the wonderful community driven threads in the general forum. One about "1000 something about liquid expulsion countdown".

I hope they don't make a thread about processing solid foods next.

I actually did buy soda, a coke. And also chips along with a donut/muffin thingie with raspberry cream inside. Was quite nice. Also bought a fried, warm chicken. Yeah, today was a good day.

fatty

lol:)

I can help by Modelling levels and weapons and by using Photoshop to create some effective textures. Just let me know if you need anything for me to do and i'll give it my best shot.

Look at the current weapons (some are really primitive). If you can do better ones, please do it. Doc-python was doing some nice weapons, but haven't finished and released them.

Some of the things said here are pretty sad, and it's even worrying that this game could risk dieing this way which would be really sad I see Nexuiz as one of the best open-source games and I think everyone would love seeing it get even better then that. I for one believe it's rude to say here "I don't care about this useless game because I have more important things to do"... of course people have more important things and troubles to take care of first in their lives, but still there's no need to see it that way and look down at this game just because it's free. Not everything that's free is useless. Not everything you put some effort on without being paid is a waste of time.

Currently I hang around two open source projects. One is Nexuiz and the other a server-side for a 3D virtual space platform. While here I see many people being careless about the game, the other project (which is also open source and doesn't bring any money) is developed with a lot of care and dedication and we are all amazed at how fast it's growing and how well it's going. We hold two weekly meetings to discuss and test dev stuff (on our server in-world) and things are so active and happy there it's a joy being around and working on it. New things come in every day and people always get excited about it when it happens... I remember when I read "X has been implemented" from the IRC bot and quickly rushed to log in and test it. And they have been like that for over a year now and it keeps getting better.

So I wonder, why can't the developers of this game (or other people who are interested to help) see things the same way? Sure, if people got paid it would be better and faster, but even if not there is still a lot we can do. I don't consider myself a dev since I hardly understand code (although I do make patches where I know how but mainly handle bug reporting and testing) but I do know how a dev feels like. When I do what I do even for open-source I like it and if I want I can do big efforts to improve something and try to make it as best as I can. Dunno... I'm probably not that great with many things but maybe I can give this as an example to other people?

Also, if you want more reasons to want to help on such a game I can give out a few other small reasons to:

1 - As I said I believe this to be one of the best free & open-source FPS games out there, even better then some brother / sister projects I seen like Alien Arena (which I also like but I personally believe Nexuiz is better). So maybe just working on it knowing what you do is appreciated and considered a great game by quite a lot of people is something to be happy about.

2 - Good projects in the category of free software receive awards if people believe that certain project is impressive. Alien Arena that I just spoke about earlier won an award for the "best free game" last year for example... read it from their web site. Of course most of these awards don't mean getting money but still it's another thing to be happy about right?

3 - When you work on a project that many people like and are attracted to it becomes popular, and many people appreciate you and you also become more known with it. Not on a very big scale of course but still. The way I actually found Nexuiz was from an online newspaper. My mother was browsing the news and left her laptop open and when I seen it peeked in out of curiosity I seen a page saying "Now you can play shooter games for free". I clicked it and there was a list with a few free games, Nexuiz being around them at the top. That's how I actually got into it and found this project, so this game even got mentioned in the newspapers / media in my country.

So yeah I hope people get my point. I believe we can try to find more enjoyment in working on this game and improving it. Once again, no one forces anyone here to work when they don't want to or do something they don't want so just relax, take care of any other problems you have before this then whenever you have some time or just when you're even bored, take a few hours and try to make or improve a model, texture, some code, etc. Don't feel constrained to do this or ever consider contribution to this game a waste of time, that's the worst thing to do. Just think of the changes that you make to the game and don't give attention to the feeling of wasting time to do nothing (just what I can say from my own experience with modding stuff). Everything you build on gives back a reward one way or another even if not money, and this game isn't an exception So I hope that helps any way.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Now to post what I initially came here to say before coming across the more dramatic part of the discussion. I am interested in helping more with building on this game and would actually love to try and do something that I can take care of. My main advantage is that I don't currently have either a job nor go to school so I sit home all day at my computer and find stuff to kill boredom (time which I could use to make something useful like here).

What I'm mainly good at is testing stuff and reporting it, but can also do building on the game. I have Adobe Photoshop and adobe Audition so textures and a little bit on sounds are things I can make (although in the case of sounds I'm best at modifying or improving them since I don't really have many methods to simulate some). I'm interested in working on simpler code that is easy to understand and modify, although here I would require someone to teach me a bit on how to edit the Nexuiz code and what editor must be used to edit it.

So if anyone has something of that type that needs to be done (mainly on testing and textures) feel free to PPM me here although the best way would be on IRC where I'm online almost all the time (I use the nickname Taoki and can be found on irc.freenode.org #nexuiz).

You go here and get the fteqcc.exe. Now go to nexuiz_from_svn/data/qcsrc and copy fteqcc.exe to server, client and menu. qc (quakec) files are the source code of nexuiz. Basic quakec reference is here and functions are listed here. Nexuiz itself is not documented. You modify files and run fteqcc.exe. It will compile and spit out errors (if any). You'll get menu, cprogs, progs .dat and .lno files in data folder. Now you run Nexuiz/Darkplaces.exe and see how the game changes. If you want to sumbit a patch, you'll need a diff (get from gnuwin32 or msys projects).

Alien wrote:You go here and get the fteqcc.exe. Now go to nexuiz_from_svn/data/qcsrc and copy fteqcc.exe to server, client and menu. qc (quakec) files are the source code of nexuiz. Basic quakec reference is here and functions are listed here. Nexuiz itself is not documented. You modify files and run fteqcc.exe. It will compile and spit out errors (if any). You'll get menu, cprogs, progs .dat and .lno files in data folder. Now you run Nexuiz/Darkplaces.exe and see how the game changes. If you want to sumbit a patch, you'll need a diff (get from gnuwin32 or msys projects).

Thank you. I have fteqcc already which I use to compile the game code after each SVN update. The problem is I don't have the software to modify the SVN myself (tried opening files in notepad but I came across code so that clearly wasn't the way). QuakeC seems good but I can't seem to find any download locations for it (googled but I only got descriptions, no download locations). So if it's ok to ask that here, where can I download the QuakeC code editor from?

There is no quakec code editor (frikac is developing one, iirc). Set highlighter to C and you'll be ok. It seems that tZork also made quakec highlighter for codeblocks ide. And, I said, you can't modify svn yourself. You need to make patches and post/send them to div.

Thank you MirceaKitsune. With your post you actually have inspired me to work harder with Nexuiz projects. I know what's at stake but I just got more fuel from you. I think if you see how much people dedicate their time for something you get inspired as well and hopefully want to work harder to improve yourself
At least, when I see hardworking people I get jealous and wish I could be like them. So, I'm too gonna try to work harder from now on.