Hello,

I've recently found out that the machine gun and shot gun have been changed to be not instant hit weapons anymore, but ballistic weapons (without the technical possibility to get the old behaviour back using a cvar). Ballistic weapon means, that the bullets are now projectiles that actually will need time to travel.

First of all, I'd like to know what the unit and meaning of the variables _speed and _bulletconstant is (basically I'm wondering how to get the meter/sec velocity of the bullet).

Then, as I felt that I wasn't hitting much anymore (not even at close range!) with MG (I tried MG since it is the weapon that is more useful for me) I tried it in another environment:

- I asked mkzela to walk in a straight line. I was walking as well (parallel to his path) and was about 5 meters away. I did not hit anything at all with MG, only if I started to lead my aim by the width of his playermodel (so about 2cm on my screen), then I started to hit.

- As I couldn't believe that the bullets were that slow I checked my demo. In fact I found out that when watching the demo, my crosshair was behind mkzelda, which means that simply my usual lag to the server (on the internet) caused this aiming issue, and in the moment I was leading my aim by 2 cm while playing, the crosshair was infact ON his model in the demo. This means that, at least at close range, the bullets' speed wasn't directly the problem.

HOWEVER, what caused me to not hit him anymore at all was likely the lack of the good-new antilag-mechanism, which has been removed for SG and MG in the process. The lack of it makes the MG and SG weapon useless, even already at short range (at least to me, and I have a 20ms ping to the server when using ping command in the shell, go figure how it works out for normal DSL people who have pings 3-5 times bigger).

I would like to
- Get a statement why such a big change was made without asking the community
- know why the change was being made anyway, why couldn't it stay a instant hit weapon
- know why the tendency exists to make nexuiz more and more realistic although this not necessary (just my opinion)
- know whether antilag could be added again for these 2 weapons

Let the discussion begin!

The change was being tested on my servers for OVER A MONTH, and nobody complained.

It had to be, to:

- not make the MG secondary stronger than the camping rifle at long range use
- because hitscan looks absolutely retarded (smoke appears before the tracer)
- because the MG was abused as long-range hole-punch weapon while intended for short range only

That's what you get for not testing on the servers where development is done.

Now, suggest something to fix this. There can't be ANY antilag for projectiles (well, what use is adjusting the shot to "appear" to hit the target, when the target will move till the bullet gets there)?

BTW, I also ran weapon strength statistics (kill/death ratio for all combinations of weapons), and the MG got no weaker there.

Simply learn to lead your shot with the MG. What is the problem with that?

BTW: in turn, the damage of the MG could be increased.

divVerent wrote:The change was being tested on my servers for OVER A MONTH, and nobody complained.

It had to be, to:

- not make the MG secondary stronger than the camping rifle at long range use
- because hitscan looks absolutely retarded (smoke appears before the tracer)
- because the MG was abused as long-range hole-punch weapon while intended for short range only

That's what you get for not testing on the servers where development is done.

Now, suggest something to fix this. There can't be ANY antilag for projectiles (well, what use is adjusting the shot to "appear" to hit the target, when the target will move till the bullet gets there)?

BTW, I also ran weapon strength statistics (kill/death ratio for all combinations of weapons), and the MG got no weaker there.

Simply learn to lead your shot with the MG. What is the problem with that?

First of all, I play on .de PlanetNexuiz.de server frequently in order to test new changes. Who can know that you are secretly doing stuff on ONLY your servers alone and then decide that this is the best for the game ahd the will of the community to do it that way!?

The MG was abused as long range weapon or the MG secondary stronger than the camping rifle argument is weak, since there are enough other methods to make the secondary fire mode weaker, using spread or lowering damage for example.

Apart from that I haven't quite figured out the "smoke appears before the tracer" part (you know me and my particle settings, I never see MG shots, their smoke or anything except for my muzzle flash), so could you perhaps explain what you mean with that and why there haven't been hordes of players since v2.4 complaining how retarded the MG looks since antilag exists?

GreEn`mArine wrote:I tried MG since it is the weapon that is more useful for me

Another post which proves sg thing.

English please

When I shoot the machine gun or the shotgun, I see the impact on the wall when the tracer just starts to leave the gun. At longer range, this would look pretty funny when you see a splash on a wall then watch your bullet fly through the air. I am guessing that this is what they are talking about when they say that the smoke appears before the tracer.

I would say that restricting the mg usage to short range like this is a good idea, but the problem is that with the current settings machinegun and shotgun are way too weak, it feels like both weapon are falling out of the weapon repertoire. The problem is not the removal of antilag, but the combination of these things that come up with the new settings:
-You need to predict the movement/direction of the target
-You need to count with the speed of the target
-You need to count with the distance of the target
-You need to add the effect of lag to it
- Even if you the both above are done you will certainly hit very few by default because of the spread.

I think these are just too much to keep in head, and this is the same "sickness" of camping rifle too, and why many people don't prefer that weapon at all, and finding it way too weak. Shotgun (especially with antilag on) was a beautifully balanced weapon in my opinion, now its really feels to be messed up, giving the freshly spawned player practically no chance for immediate self-defence.
In my recommendation the machinegun's bullet/sec should be raised by much, so it would be more efficent if you can track the target with these hard circumstances. This would also solve the big problem that mg is too spammable, it comes with TONS off ammo, with that you can shoot for hours...
For shotgun i have no idea what to do, maybe the earlier settings were just fine, because its used for short distance anyways, so its certainly not causing those uncomfortable issues as the mg does on long range.

Ahh something I would like to rapidly add to the end of this post: mortar is overpowered now with all these new weapon-setups! (and its logic since ALL weapon are have gotten much weaker except that)

Mortar is NOT overpowered, but far weaker than the RL.

As for MG - yes, fire rate can be increased (but damage per bullet lowered then). Would also look better.

As for SG - heck, this doesn't even CHANGE the shotgun at all! It gets the very same hit/miss ratio before and after this change. At short range, nothing changes for the SG at all, due to its high spread!

Anyway. Too late. It has been tried on my SVN servers before commit. On the SVN servers that were there SPECIFICALLY for the purpose of trying such stuff before commit. For over a month. If you complain NOW, you're proving that you're stupid idiots.

Or, you're proving that non-developers hosting SVN servers is harmful to development, as it removes an important part of the feedback loop to the developers.

francotirador wrote:but the problem is that with the current settings machinegun and shotgun are way too weak, it feels like both weapon are falling out of the weapon repertoire

sg always did.

SG is a freaking starting weapon. If everyone started with a Nex or a RL, what point would there be of the pickups?

Same reason why the MG sucked in Q3A.

Anyway, MG now has higher dps, comparable dps value to hagar. Done by reducing the damage per bullet, but increasing the bullet rate:

Previous: primary = 15 damage, 0.1 refire -> 150dps
Now: primary = 13 damage, 0.05 refire -> 260dps

Previous: secondary = 30 damage, 0.2 refire -> 150dps
Now: secondary = 30 damage, 0.15 refire -> 200dps

Might be too strong now, even with the ballistic bullets.

Also note that MG and SG share one advantage over all other guns: huge damage in an ammo pickup, and long spamming from a single pickup. If you compare:

SG: 15 shots per pickup, = 900 units of damage
MG: 80 shots per pickup, = 2400 units of damage
GL: 7.5 shots per pickup, = 487.5 units of damage
Electro: 12.5 shots per pickup, = 750 units of damage (1000 if all are combos)
Crylink: 12.5 shots per pickup, = 1575 units of damage
Nex: 5 shots per pickup, = 650 units of damage
Hagar: 15 shots per pickup, = 570 units of damage
RL: 5 shots per pickup, = 600 units of damage
HLAC: 25 shots per pickup, = 575 units of damage
Seeker: 2.777 shots per pickup, = 444.444 units of damage
CR: 8 shots per pickup, = 640 units of damage (1600 if all are head shots)

As you see, the MG is the cheapest weapon of all. Most bang for the buck. The other guns that are high in this metric - CR, Crylink, Electro combo, SG - are balanced by it being hard to actually pull off this damage amount.

There is also an optional "antilag bullets" mode that lets all bullets hit immediately. This however is a heavy weapaon balance breaker, as it makes the Uzi stronger than the rifle at long range.

Thanks for adding an option to make MG, SG (and CR) bullets antilagged again. Also thanks to Komier who just explained the "smoke before tracer" problem, I guess he means a similar effect to what you see in UT99 for example for the shock rifle. The splash of it comes first, then comes a slow beam

Anyways, my biggest concern really is the missing antilag problem with these 3 weapons. From another perspective (if I wasn't a developer) the game changed in a way that you suddenly have to lead your aim for these weapons for which you didn't have to lead your aim before. I guess this is rather a step back than forward. Sure, I can also understand div0's motive to make it "look right", so that impact smoke comes after the tracer reached it target (so you avoid the silly effect we used to have before), but this is basically the only valid argument for me to disable hitscan (EDIT: and thus antilag as well) for these two weapons.

About all other arguments similar to "MG secondary too strong" etc are not valid for me:
- When deciding the make CR bullets antilagged as well, the mentioned MG secondary fire accuracy advantage compared to the CR is gone

- as antilag makes the weapons easier to use, of course, the damage and/or rounds per seconds values need be lowered, as well as the spread needs to be raised, probably even quite a bit. I am not interested in throwing off weapon balance either by making the bullet weapons antilagged by default but not changing the dmg/spread values back to a sane default

- I now understand why I always thought the CR was so crappy ... it wasn't antilagged in the first place - it would have made sense to me to antilag it as well. Sorry, I can understand your argument why CR or other weapons should have projectiles, for the looks, more realism(?), and being able to give them higher damage at the cost of harder usage, but still, making the weapon harder to use is not fair to the players

I'm strongly suggesting to create a poll soon where players can decide here whether they prefer the weapons to be antilagged or not (means: whether g_antilag_bullets gets default 1 or not). Of course, if that was the case, all bullet weapons should get a rebalance. Maybe we should wait a few more days so that the players can get used to their poor performance they now have on SVN servers other than your own with MG and SG and get a little heated up (they will, hehe) so that the poll goes even more in the direction I am proposing...

I think terms antilag and autoscan became confused in this thread. CR was never autoscan, MG and SG were. Now they are not. It does not affect SG cause it's even more useless at far range than at close, but affects MG, where you need to lead the target to compensate for ballistic bullets.

No, the terms are not confused. g_antilag_bullets enables BOTH antilag and hitscan for bullets. But leads to weapon balance of the MG being way off, and removes the tracer effects (as they look stupid then).

Well the tracer might look stupid when its hitscan but people are used to it (from older Nexuiz versions and other games like UT) and without them its really hard to see who is shooting at you. And i think this fact alone warrents to keep the tracer in the hitscan case.

Right now I cant use the mg or the shotty (close range or not) maybe ill learn, but I doubt it. Also I think its screwed up reasoning that these guns have to change because of the camper gun which haven't even been in any official release yet (and its function is somewhat questionable for normal game play imo). it like saying rl has to track the target because the tag does.

For the visual part, one can use instant and accurate smoke trails instead of those silly half invisible little tracer models.

I don't think making a gun harder to use by adding the random network latency of the client to it is the right way to balance things.

Now I'm NOT saying "OMG BRING HITSCAN BACK!!!1one", but I want a solid replacement for it in terms of function. I'm not sure how this can be done yet, but I'm sure there a way. So maybe we can talk ideas on how to unlag weapons at large instead of squabbling over it?

Also, you cant simply compare leading bullets to the other weapons because they all have splash and radius.

It is not random network latency.

As for unlagging projectiles like bullets - any ideas HOW that could work?

And I still don't get how this even AFFECTS the shotgun at all. It has a wide spread, after all.

Smoke trails would be cool indeed, but how to do that? The problem is that the path of a bullet is a curve (thanks to gravity). Only slightly bent downwards, so maybe straight lines or like 8 segments wouldn't even look that bad.

Anyway, I have no time for this. Anyone who thinks he's found a SOLUTION is free to submit it. Not that this will happen anytime soon.

And no, no forum polls for this. They don't work anyway, see the CTF case.

I also did not notice a change to the shotgun, after all its effective range is rather small so the need to lead is much less. The camping rifle was 'always hard to use' and i have not yet had a change to test todays balancing changes to the machinegun..

Komier wrote:When I shoot the machine gun or the shotgun, I see the impact on the wall when the tracer just starts to leave the gun. At longer range, this would look pretty funny when you see a splash on a wall then watch your bullet fly through the air. I am guessing that this is what they are talking about when they say that the smoke appears before the tracer.

That is the bad visual effect we are talking about when using hitscan and tracers! The damage and the impact decal is drawn the moment you press fire (or rather then the info that you pressed the button reaches the server) while the tracer needs some time to travel and be visible. This also made a few people try to hit with the tracers.. which will just not work

This was changed in the development version by turning the shots into 'real' bullets which take time to travel so the visuals are just right.. are affected by gravity
AND due to their nature can not be antilagged. Which is what this whole thread is about.

People seem to have a hard time to hit with those NOT antilagged bullets.. However the machinegun settings were changed today to compensate for this by increasing the damage. And also people need to get used to this..

BTW has anyone here an idea how ETQW uses antilag? I think it also uses 'real' bullets but also sports antilag. But i'm not totally sure there.

divVerent wrote:And no, no forum polls for this. They don't work anyway, see the CTF case.

yay democracy (translates to one man show)!!
EDIT:well, I don't want to sound too aggressive here. All I'm saying is that you, div0, had the feature enabled on your servers for some time and since no1 complained you concluded that the general public likes (or doesn't have objections to) that change. Now I don't know what kind of clients play on your server. If it's mainly the "i like to play computer games" people, they probably won't have complained because they don't hit a tree in the woods anyway. But I'm not here to make blunt statements, but mainly want to figure out that the decision to convert SG and MG into a non-hitscan/non-antilagged weapon (I've talked about the reasons why imo this is not neccessary already) should not remain to be done just because of a one month period of random players on your server. I know that polls can be somewhat tricky and not working, but the general idea is, imo, that when enough respected community members reflect their objections to this change here, a reconsideration should be done.

@esteel: sure, doing such changes and ignoring any input of the community will make the community get used to as they have no other choice.

However, I'll test the new balance settings that were mentioned to compensate the uselessness. And I'll test again how it "does not affect the shotgun" in my usual testcase. I'm quite sure it DOES affect it, but anyway.

GreEn`mArine wrote:I know that polls can be somewhat tricky and not working, but the general idea is, imo, that when enough respected community members reflect their objections to this change here, a reconsideration should be done.

We have seen how that works with the CTF scoring case.

And again - you had the CHANCE to try it out before. If you missed it, it's your own fault and nobody else's. It is a well known fact that changes are often done on my servers before they become default, so they can be tried out. That's the main reason why I am running this server, after all. If you miss your chance of giving feedback at an APPROPRIATE time, and then complain later, it's your very own problem.

Were is that part about input being ignored? A f*cking stormfront of complains being ignored for the sake of ones state of mind.. yeah i can see that.

Lets face the fact, this change was active on the MAIN development server of almost a month, noone complained, now that this change got into svn and is also on my server people complain? Well that should have been enough time to talk about this change in a kind way.

Besides, as good as svn is, i think we have too many SVN server that do NOT give feedback to the developers... which result in stuff like this. For example i have never seen the admin of the ToT server anywere in contact with developers.. The svn buld scripts in the forum were MOSTLY intended for people to test the client! How are the devs supposed to find out what people like and what not with out such active feedback?

And even more, people are working on solving this issue right now... again, were is that ignoring part? I really think some people (including developers) should try a mind-check.. The way this went off was just totally wrong.. You can't expect a change in half a day.. but you can expect people to get angry with the way i heared demands and shittalk regarding this ballistic change like on irc... even more so if the change was tested and has good reasons like improved visuals and being more cheat prone. And weapon stats were collected before this change made it into svn which revealed no big changes.

But some people act like the deverlopers want to screw this game up on purpose.... Oh come on, really, whats wrong with you guys? Though we are close the the code freeze Nexuiz is still in development and we have better things to do then get into a bad mood or talk down on anyone. Everyone wants the next release to be big and good and get people to play with joy. Try to show some of that joy even if you want to criticise stuff!

to "prove" that antilagged bullets are being worked on, and that they will have the full feature set of ballistic ones (can also go through walls, and gravity affects them) even though they hit instantly. All they still need is a particle effect that doesn't look like this one, but is barely visible and thin. Maybe sparks flying in the shot direction would be a good start.

esteel wrote:Were is that part about input being ignored? A f*cking stormfront of complains being ignored for the sake of ones state of mind.. yeah i can see that.

Lets face the fact, this change was active on the MAIN development server of almost a month, noone complained, now that this change got into svn and is also on my server people complain? Well that should have been enough time to talk about this change in a kind way.

Besides, as good as svn is, i think we have too many SVN server that do NOT give feedback to the developers... which result in stuff like this. For example i have never seen the admin of the ToT server anywere in contact with developers.. The svn buld scripts in the forum were MOSTLY intended for people to test the client! How are the devs supposed to find out what people like and what not with out such active feedback?

And even more, people are working on solving this issue right now... again, were is that ignoring part? I really think some people (including developers) should try a mind-check.. The way this went off was just totally wrong.. You can't expect a change in half a day.. but you can expect people to get angry with the way i heared demands and shittalk regarding this ballistic change like on irc... even more so if the change was tested and has good reasons like improved visuals and being more cheat prone. And weapon stats were collected before this change made it into svn which revealed no big changes.

But some people act like the deverlopers want to screw this game up on purpose.... Oh come on, really, whats wrong with you guys? Though we are close the the code freeze Nexuiz is still in development and we have better things to do then get into a bad mood or talk down on anyone. Everyone wants the next release to be big and good and get people to play with joy. Try to show some of that joy even if you want to criticise stuff!

Well, even though I am an active community member for years it didn't occur to me that divverents servers were meant to contain changes that are NOT in SVN. This is even a change that is actually HIDDEN and not obvious, unless he states it in his MOTD which I didn't check. If I had played on his server, I would jsut have thought: "hell, he jsut disabled antilag (in general)" and would have left after 5 minutes due to "FFA gaming quality". Whether this change is on his server for a year or a day doesn't make a difference if you don't know about that, but think that you are supposed to test committed SVN changes.

The way it looks to me (not saying that it IS that way) is indeed that devs want to ruin their (their != our) game. I can remember times where devs thought that antilag is the pure evil and developers introduced sv_clmovement_minping and other horrible ideas, and if I hadn't participated in the fight for changes back then like I am now, I would probably have left the scene a long time ago. And the "you had one month time for testing" is indeed a good excuse to use - at least for this case anyway (I know about this principle in general, but though it applied to "what is in svn is supposed to be tested).

However, I am trying to keep objective here, hell that costs energy
No dev has given a statement about my counter-arguments. They provided arguments such as
- "CR had disadvantage to MG": couter-argument: make CR hitscan too

- MG was too strong: my counter-argument: raise spread, raise ammo costs (already done to MG), lower damage or rounds per second

- "learn how to lead your aim" << *me inserts coin into lol-o-mat and pushes button* ...I dare not even further commenting on that ... players shall now lead their aim for weapons where they didn't have to do it before? For what benefit?

- bad looks due to impact is seen before the tracer << fine, the only real good argument from your side. But it has been that way in Nexuiz for ages, and also in other games for ages. It is simply the cost of instant hit weapons.

This is why I say the community (ok, me in this case) is ignored, since my arguments are ignored.

Apart from my arguments, I am arguing here all the time, because I am a player who was able to actually use SG and MG very efficiently so far. With this change this is gonna change, and I am hot happy looking forward to this. This change stays in Nexuiz? -> Nexuiz will be less fun for me

EDIT: one more note: I am not against projectile/ballistic properties of the shots in general. I am just against removing antilag for these weapons.

GreEn`mArine wrote:However, I am trying to keep objective here, hell that costs energy
No dev has given a statement about my counter-arguments. They provided arguments such as
- "CR had disadvantage to MG": couter-argument: make CR hitscan too

Then CR becomes just as annoying as the Nex.

- MG was too strong: my counter-argument: raise spread, raise ammo costs (already done to MG), lower damage or rounds per second

Won't help.

- "learn how to lead your aim" << *me inserts coin into lol-o-mat and pushes button* ...I dare not even further commenting on that ... players shall now lead their aim for weapons where they didn't have to do it before? For what benefit?

Think of it as removing the old MG, and adding a new weapon.

- bad looks due to impact is seen before the tracer << fine, the only real good argument from your side. But it has been that way in Nexuiz for ages, and also in other games for ages. It is simply the cost of instant hit weapons.

Then I'd rather have no instant hit weapons.

Anyway, a solution for this (with not very good effect) is in svn.

EDIT: one more note: I am not against projectile/ballistic properties of the shots in general. I am just against removing antilag for these weapons.

But as it would be retarded to penalize the "strong" rifle by ballistics, and have the "weak" uzi stay hitscan, this means you are totally against ballistics.

Anyway, try the "antilagged" ballistic projectiles. g_antilag_projectiles 1 in svn.

Well was just playing a little there.

The higher fire rate MG seems absolutely nuts I think. Not had much chance to use it but it seemed pretty powerful at close range but I suppose thats what the aim was.

Assuming the SG on that server is still set to projectile, its totally useless. I cant seem to hit a damn thing.

esteel wrote:But some people act like the deverlopers want to screw this game up on purpose.... Oh come on, really, whats wrong with you guys? Though we are close the the code freeze Nexuiz is still in development and we have better things to do then get into a bad mood or talk down on anyone. Everyone wants the next release to be big and good and get people to play with joy. Try to show some of that joy even if you want to criticise stuff!

Perfectly agree with this statement, it's BOTH the developers and the community's responsibility to raise this great game to an even higher level, and that can only be happen with the mutual respect of eachother.

The source of the problem was I think, that the casual/experienced players who were willing to test the newest SVN setting in action all went to Planetnexuiz.de testserver (just like me), because it's the most common testserver currently (we gotta face it...), and it wasnt implemented yet there. As you see, as soon as it got applied, you got immediate response from the community about the balance problems freshly occured. From my viewpoint: I immediately noticed it after the first mouseclick, that something was changed, asked it from esteel, he confirmed. Then i was testing it for 4 hours in CTF so I could have some thoughts how it works on open and wide-spaced maps. After that I went to play 3 hours of 1on1 too how it works on close range DM maps, and wether it still fits into the repertoire. So it wasnt like: *Connecting to de green*... *Shooting with mg*... *WHAT THE F**K??? It's a sh*t!!!!*.......*Posting immediate comment on it on the forum*...

Thank you divVerent for your fast reaction with the machinegun-balance change, I'm going to test it right now, these numbers seem to be quite correct for a first look, lets see how they work in practice

However there are two notes I wish to share with you and recommend to think about:

- The shotgun balance problem DOES occur in close range without antilag! You just need to take account that players have on average 90-100 ping. So, why its important? Because on close range the distance that someone travels in 0.1 second (from bunnyhopp and laserjump) is REALLY relevalent. Lets say its 1 meter for example. (I know Nexuiz has difference in metric system thats why someone can bunnyhopp with 100 km/h... Just making distances up by perception) A moderate player can be that fast when running for/with flags. Because shotgun is a close ranged weapon, its highly possible that that 1 meter travel will happen about 1-2 meters in front of you. Now it means that you don't just need to correspond it with aiming 1 meter in front of him, but also note that on the monitor it can mean even 5-8 centimeters on really close range and moderate lag!

- Another thing I would like to add: the current speed of both the machinegun and shotgun bullets are way too low. In real life the speed of the bullets is about 5-900 meters per second, that means if you shoot with machinegun on facing worlds for example (coz everyone knows its base-to-base size), the travel time of the bullet should be around 0.1-2 second, at least i measure the distance like around 150-200 meters. So why im telling this? Because if we are talking about realistic implementation if bullets, you shouldn't see them at all because of their extreme speed, ESPECIALLY on close range! Soo, that can result the turnoff of the visible shotgun shells, as 1 solution, because its currently NOT realistic. This could solve the balance issues for sure, and it wouldn't have any drawback, because you always know from the sound what direction you are shot at on very close range (even with a 2.1 sound system). Shotgun wouldn't loose anything from realism, whatmore, could make more realistic! Also like this antilag on shotgun could come back

Well that's all my thought about this whole issue, time to test the new machinegun, you could read my ideas with the explanations, so now comes the testing part

EDIT: after a fast test I realized that the machinegun's bullet speed maybe shouldnt be changed, but what i wrote about the shotgun is still valid i think

I followed the discussion here with a lot of interest. My two cents in a nutshell:

To me, the MG was important for long range combat whenever I did not have a nex. No matter if that was not intended, I liked this function of the MG. It seemed natural to me that there is more than one reliable and effective long range weapon. Otherwise you always would have to run for the nex, no alternative.

Now, I haven't yet figured out how to use any of the new weapons reliably and effectively at long range. So unless somebody tells me there is a good way to hunt down a strafe-moving camper from the distance, I feel making the MG ballistic shifts the weapon balance.

@div: you may or may not remember, but I was playing on your server some time ago and after I said something strange is going on here you explained the changes to me (thx for that!). I remember saying that I hope there will be a compensation for the loss of the MG as long-range weapon...

but then again I feel I am maybe not an experienced enough player to criticize development decisions. So I go with what goes anyway.

divVerent wrote:

GreEn`mArine wrote:- "CR had disadvantage to MG": couter-argument: make CR hitscan too

Then CR becomes just as annoying as the Nex.

Fine. I didn't understand the need of another hitscan weapon in the first place anyway. And as it is not placed on any official maps it doesn't matter how CR works (for me).

- MG was too strong: my counter-argument: raise spread, raise ammo costs (already done to MG), lower damage or rounds per second

Won't help.

List reasons please...

- "learn how to lead your aim" << *me inserts coin into lol-o-mat and pushes button* ...I dare not even further commenting on that ... players shall now lead their aim for weapons where they didn't have to do it before? For what benefit?

Think of it as removing the old MG, and adding a new weapon.

So this means a official weapon has been removed that I and other players I like -> great. This perspective is not really considerate...
In my perspective, handicap was added to the weapon so that additional skill is needed to circumvent it.

- bad looks due to impact is seen before the tracer << fine, the only real good argument from your side. But it has been that way in Nexuiz for ages, and also in other games for ages. It is simply the cost of instant hit weapons.

Then I'd rather have no instant hit weapons.

I know you don't like hitscans like MG and SG.

Anyways, I'll try the g_antilag_bullets setting tonight. Thanks for putting efforts into this!

Can't weapons be antilagged but not hitscan? Or maybe I don't understand what antilag for WEAPONS means. Antilag moves players backwards in time for the lag value and checks if somebody was hit. Therefore you need to compensate only for ballistics and not lag.

Hmm. and it seems alpha rants affected nex.

I mostly agree with Green here.
I see both pros and cons with ballistics bullets (most cons). My opinion may change later who knows.

I've must also try g_antilag_bullets later. I just tried it locally but that isn't ideal I think

when playing locally you can simulate ping via cl_netlocal_ping (iirc) i guess then you can compare how ping affects both modes the best