Speaking f weapons... am I the only one, who has some odd memories... ?

C.Brutail wrote:Speaking f weapons... am I the only one, who has some odd memories... ?

yes you are.

Xeno wrote:(It would be interesting too if weapon models could have "attachments" that enabled modes, but that's probably more complicated than anyone would be willing to code right now.)

I was interested in doing this (super shotgun attachment) when div suggested me to code an upgrade for shotgun if I want it to act as a proper one. But I doubt he'll agree with the weapon system replacement cause in some article even lordhavoc said that nexuiz weapon system has been rewritten at least three times and current one is thought as the most robust. For me it seems impossible to add new weapons over old ones as upgrades cause each new weapon should be registered, have it's own slot, etc...

More insight welcome.

Is that the edge?

--FraNcoTirAdoR-- wrote:Well, i would dare to personally come up with the idea of merging the hagar and tag, and the reason is because we have 2 underused models, with 1-1 technically not too usable secondary fire mode. So they could be merged into a new hagar, thats primary is the current TAGs primary, and the secondary is the old hagars primary. And the model could be the 2.5s new hagar. It could shoot 3 (stronger) homing rockets from the 3 barrel it has, so it could also make sense. This would result a strong and very usable weapon for close and midle range. Im not sure it worth to have another weapon reasoning 2 semi used weapons, it would also be more newbie friendly to get know fewer weapons. Just compare current hagars primary with hlac primary, and also with TAGs secondary. The difference is not too big. Maybe its time for some weapon optimization. that would result a weapon deserving the placement of #8 in the arsenal

I agree. The best thing to do. the tag secondary it's only good to scare the player coming to you so he feels pain and kills you with a precise nex shot. The hagar secondary... I think I used it less than 10 times in game. This suffices to say: remove it.

No. Don't remove it. Make it bounce one more time mabe. Don't merge the two weapons.
Just because YOU do not use it, Just because YOU do not put it in your maps doesn't mean other peeps don't. I put the hagar in my maps alot, also the seeker. The hagar for medium weapon that is somewhat accurate, and the tag for a defence or heavy hitting weapon is great. They are both diffrent and it is GOOD to have variety.

There is no reason to remove weapons anymore. If you do not want to use a weapon in your map than don't use that weapon... but don't screw things up for other mappers.

The TAGs secondary is also a feature that i think noone would miss, it is meant to work as an anti-rocket, but the problem is that on a NORMAL map (not a giga-mega-huge, relatively empty one) you just take a close corner and you already escaped TAGs primary rockets. If its shot from distance you terminate them with rocketlauncher before they reach you. And it doesnt protect against rocket missiles either.

I respectfully disagree and would like to point out that more weapon choice enables more thoughtfully balanced maps (edited by SavageX)

--FraNcoTirAdoR-- wrote:Well, i would dare to personally come up with the idea of merging the hagar and tag, and the reason is because we have 2 underused models, with 1-1 technically not too usable secondary fire mode.

I disagree.

First of all, the hybrid hagar+seeker would be just too strong. Hagar already is one of the top weapons (for its high damage per second), and this would make it just insanely powerful (probably more than the nex, even). To balance that hybrid again, you'd have to reduce the damage of the hagar, and of the seeker missiles, which will lose the most important point of the hagar: its high dps value, which makes it the perfect choice for destroying objectives or turrets (camping rifle secondary exceeds hagar's dps, but only in short bursts, and it eats bullets like hell, which makes CR secondary a bad choice to destroy high health objectives).

Secondly, hagar secondary is very useful, but you need to learn it. Mainly good for blocking entrances, or for surprising campers (it's easier to aim than the electro secondary or grenades if you know where the camper is, but don't see him). For wide scale destruction, it often is good to alternate between primary and secondary.

Thirdly, seeker secondary is even more useful. It is not just a rocket shield, but also is a very cheap and safe damage inflictor e.g. for objectives in assault and onslaught. It has more damage per second than the RL and the mortar, and is quite safe to use on objectives. Only the hagar has more damage per second. Also, I found out that it often is a nice shotgun alternative in close fights.

BTW, it IS working even against rocket launcher rockets. You ought to walk backwards while using it as a shield.

tundramagi wrote:Just because YOU do not use it, Just because YOU do not put it in your maps doesn't mean other peeps don't.

Its not about me not using it, it about noone using it, especially not using it effectively at all. You need to know the exect position of the enemy behind the corner, and also need to hit the wall in a proper angle while standing on a proper place. Making this little mathematical calculation (with gigantic miss factor since you never know the exact position of an enemy behind a corner, if there is enemy at all) makes it impossible to maintain fluid and effective game. Its working very well with electro because it has huge splash radious, and it working with mortar because it bounces multiple times, so it has more chance to hit the opponent.

There is no reason to remove weapons anymore. If you do not want to use a weapon in your map than don't use that weapon... but don't screw things up for other mappers.

Seems like you are really missing the point, I could only repeat the first sentence what I said. There is no selfishness, like "ohh noobs pwning me with hagar pleeeeease remove it", but I see 2 completely useless functions for all, and not just for me. I NEVER saw a hagar secondary frag during this 1,5 year of time i played this game.
Also it wouldnt break 99% of the maps since they are still containing shared hagar/tag spawnpoints.

divVerent wrote:First of all, the hybrid hagar+seeker would be just too strong. Hagar already is one of the top weapons (for its high damage per second), and this would make it just insanely powerful (probably more than the nex, even)..

I agree with that divVerent, but then dont put TAG in the weapon queue to the #8th place, OVER nex and mortar, because looking at the weapon order with a newbie-eye i would think that the lowest ranked weapons in number are weaker than highest. Thats why nex and rocketlauncher is so high, am I right? So #8 indicates a REAL pwnage weapon. Well this is kinda strong to say on the current TAG. Put TAG to #4 accompanied with mortar (lol mortar should be on #8 instead because of its extremely wide-usability) to make it looks somewhat real. Also the function of hagar is to be a confusing weapon as it was said many times, a hybrid TAG + hagar really would be that by using both fire mode in combination.

You counted mathematically the strenght of hagar secondary, but I would like to suggest to add much more factors depending on usablility so it would reflect the usage of weapons much better. Just look at the weapon matrix and you will see that TAG is at the bottom, tho' you said it has huge damage per sec. And im sure that those frags were mostly made by the primary mode.
These factors should be multipliers like:
- spread (dont know if you count with it, if not its a HUGE problem then)
- bounce or not
- speed of the bullet
- antilagged or not
- can be effected when to explode (like RL, electro)
- size of the effective range
- push (/negative push) of the hit

Count with these on TAG:
- HUGE spread, very low multiplicater
- It doesnt bounce, also bad multiplicator
- speed of the bullet: well its okey
- antilagged: this case it doesnt count
- cant be effected when to explode, bad multiplicator
- size of the effective range is VERY small, so bad multiplicator
- the push isnt so significant, and when it pushes, it pushes out of its range often lol

This would give out that the usablity of TAG secondary is very very low, as it is reflected properly on the damage matrix you already showed. I tested wether it deflects rockets but it doesnt change their angle much enough so they still dont damage big after the opponent blows it up with secondary.

*admin-edit* merged two posts

I kill peeps with the hagar secondary all the time, you're just a poor player and a rail-bitch.

"OMG t3h math!" Yea that's what a brain is for, which you don't use. If you do the calcs often enough it's easy as the brain is used to it.

"Take this out because ------> I <------ THINK it's useless"
Yea, that's not "selfish" at all.

How about this, you do something useful like make something (map, model, code, anything) rather than begging for the removal of weapons. GUESS WHAT: there are MORE than nine weapon spots now. We don't NEED to REMOVE weapons YOU don't like to make room for weapons YOU do like.. we can just add the new weapon. How about not being a selfish git for once?

Na, will never happen, you'll always be demanding that whatever game you're using be tailored to you and damn all others, PURELY because you want it that way and NOT because other things need to be removed to add the things you would like.

If you're just going to complain about garbage could you please complain to a concrete wall instead? And don't give garbage about "constructive criticism" the __ONLY__ constructive criticism in an OPEN SOURCE project IS YOU CONSTRUCTING SOMETHING (the thing you want).

That's how OSS works: you want something... make it.
And if you want to REMOVE something someone else made and enjoys because YOU don't like it... well go run off a cliff.

First of, Franco. Don't bother arguing with MikeeUSA/Tundramagi/100+Nicks. There's really no point in it, he just spews out the same things over and over.

Anyway, I happen to agree with Franco. I do like his idea to merge the Hagar and the TAG. If it do get too powerful then it could easily be adjusted. Not only lowering damage but lowering the refire rate of the multi-rocket and/or remove one TAG rocket, increase spread and many other things could be done. Yes, this probably would take away much of the two current weapons, but instead of having two hardly used weapons, why not have one that could be used more? Of course, this would be up for tests and see if people would actually use it.
Me personally basically pick up these weapons only to feed more rocket ammo for the other rocket consuming weapons.

To those who wonder (mike included), it's not such a good idea to add another weapon which basically is Hagar and TAG merged as it will be too similar to the current Hagar and TAG. Why have two weapons with TAG ability, or two weapons with the exact same Hagar rocket spam?
One last thing, nothing said about this have I considered a 'demand'. I see these as suggestions and comments. No one is saying 'Do this naow!!11one!!"

PS. I do actually like the secondary of the TAG, but you rarely ever use it. I did try it as an alternative shotgun but it's a bit unpredictable and doesn't make as much damage (now I don't know it's damage compared to the shotty, but when I used it I got many hits without the people dying. I on the other hand seem to die rather quickly from this ). Also, if the enemy gets outside the range of that rocket inferno you'd lose precious time when switching to a longer range weapon as you hardly try to hit with the TAG and even if you do successfully hit him, in a closed off map they'd be rendered useless. You pretty much have to switch to another weapon unless you want to play with lady of luck.

This is my take on these/this weapon(s).

AI is just agreeing with Frac because Franc's opinion is the opposite of mine and AI will take any position that is the opposite. Previously he had no opinion surely.

AI: if there's a weapon you want then you go and make it, don't call for the screwing up of weapons other people made. The hagar and the TAG are diffrent weapons and used for diffrent fighting styles. Your opinions against the weapons are without merit.

but instead of having two hardly used weapons, why not have one that could be used more? Of course, this would be up for tests and see if people would actually use it.

For the SAME REASON that nexuiz consists of MORE THAN ONLY THE NEX AND LASER.

Some people don't want to be constrained by your "lets merge weapons, get rid of functionality, get rid of variety" ideas. Ofcourse you will keep pushing and pushing untill you get your way of REMOVING things from the game so there's almost no point arguing this because you WILL get your way. It's most unfortunate that there is an impetus to cave to such desires. The only thing that should be done is additions to the game, not removals... but some people who must "refine" everything (of the same class who must create and try to enforce naming conventions on pk3s) just NEED to have their way or else this "sculpture" they think they're making of nexuiz will be imperfect in their minds eye.

How about, AI and Frac, you code things you want (not removing things). If you do that you will find that you no longer need perfection and no longer will desire to remove other peoples contributions.

You two are selfish for wanting to remove/merge these weapons JUST because YOU DON'T USE THEM / It doesn't fit your LOWEST COMMON DENOMINATOR playing style.

And you will push and push untill it is done. Maybe you will even feign disintrest in making any more contributions to the project untill your demands are met. Maybe you will bring up your ideas of removal every chance you can edge them into a discussion.

Infact... wasn't this discussion about morph's nice new weapon models... and then it turned into "lets remove other people's weapons!!!".

PS: any game designed by committie sucks because it becomes all middle-of-the road lowest-common-denomiator-pandering crap... which is what YOU AND FRAC what nexuiz to be.

"Oh the idiot players don't use the Tag seeker secondary too much because they perfer the nex or rocket laucher.... so remove it!!!11ONE ONE"

Screw you.
If YOU have an idea for a weapon of your own, Frac, AI, how about you go into the code and create it rather than trying to whittle down other people's weapons. How about you do that? Why don't you do that... ah because you don't have the "time" to "learn".

Because you'd rather "suggest" things to other people and make them do it.
You don't even think about how the new weapons help mappers.

The TAG is a great strong + defensive weapon which one can put in map areas you want a defender to have an advantage.

The hagar is a nice mid to far range weapon where you want a defender to beable to fend off far ranging attackers or have an attacker "bomb snipe" defenders.

But no you'd take both of those away from the mapper and merge them into one.
How about you make a weapon, by yourself, that will fill whatever role your thinking about rather than corrupting the functions of other people's weapons because YOU cannot think of anything other than WHAT IS SHOWN TO YOU. You can't come up with an original idea for a nexuiz weapon that would fill the role you think is unfilled...
...
...
Instead the idea you come up with is to remove and merge...

Oh and you admid you're a rocket whore so why should anyone listen to your "idea"?
(Because you'll promote it at every turn and the only way to get you to stop doing so will be to implement it... that's how other people get what they want aswell...)

I'm not sure what you're getting at. You say my opinion isn't worth anything or is as heavy as anybody else's?
But, as soon as I read Franco's idea I liked it but I didn't say anything. Mainly because I wanted to see if other people reacted to that. I didn't think it would have gone into a deeper discussion (which it did that's why I stated my opinion). This has nothing to do with you or my opinion of you, never had. (Of course, no matter what I say will actually make you believe me so let's drop it.)

For the weapons, I just stated my views, people may take them as they want. Ignore them, work with them, change them, whatever. I do not have the skills to create a new weapon, the time to learn how to create new weapons nor the will to create new weapons. That just isn't interesting to me, I'd rather just create models. I don't like coding nor have any brains for that.

No mikeeusa (tundramagi), AI is denouncing your credibility because of your history of trolling.

[-z-] wrote:No mikeeusa (tundramagi), AI is denouncing your credibility because of your history of trolling.

I have never trolled. I have said that I was against women's rights and infavor of men's liberty. Just because people react, in a pre-programed illogical and stupid way to things that are in their favor (meaning: they oppose that which is supportive of them) does not mean it is a troll: it means that they react as they were taught to react and have thought-over nothing... they just accept that what they were taught was good is good.

AI: Use lamoot's model to make a new weapon for nexuiz that fits the nitche you believe is curretly vacant. Remeber: each time you add a new weapon functionality you increase the variety of "combos" that can be achieved in Nexuiz... many people love combos.

I won't use Lamoot's model for anything. Firstly, I already stated, I will not create any weapons as I don't like that part and I also do not know how nor do I wish to learn.
Secondly, Lamoot's model is Lamoot's model. If he wished for it to exist in Nexuiz he first must create a low poly version, I've only seen the high poly version. I also haven't seen any source files he might have released for others to finish.
Thirdly, I don't think Lamoot's model would fit the Hagar-TAG hybrid.

I'm not following the flames, sorry, but somehow my question was lost.

Div, how viable would it be to code the weapon upgrade system? Would it require many changes to the existing code base?

ai wrote:I won't use Lamoot's model for anything. Firstly, I already stated, I will not create any weapons as I don't like that part and I also do not know how nor do I wish to learn.
Secondly, Lamoot's model is Lamoot's model. If he wished for it to exist in Nexuiz he first must create a low poly version, I've only seen the high poly version. I also haven't seen any source files he might have released for others to finish.
Thirdly, I don't think Lamoot's model would fit the Hagar-TAG hybrid.

I also suggested you drop the hybrid idea and instead think of what niche you are trying to fill.
You could make an energy weapon that fills that niche rather than an explosive one for instance. Or maybe you might see that shells need a second weapon to be used in (or bullets a third).
Lamoot said he'd be happy if someone made a weapon of his model; ask him for the source and make one.

I will not create any weapons as I don't like that part and I also do not know how nor do I wish to learn.

Many of us don't like that part, but we wanted some weapon to exist... so we put aside our dislike or unfamiliarity with certain creative processes of nexuiz and made what we wanted. That is how the weapons that exist got started.

Oh, you don't wish to learn... ok so you need to pull down what other people have made instead? Nice

Aaanyway. I'm gonna drop this now, I've stated my opinion and no more needs to be said from me on this matter.
Cheers.

Ahhh tundramagi is mikeeusa, I didnt know that, thats why his reply to my idea instantly turned into a personal attack trying to use all the expressions and attack from as many aspect as possible (you know, stating someone a non-reliable, selfish, brainless, monoweaponist noob who has nothing to do with this game, I mean WOW )

I kill peeps with the hagar secondary all the time, you're just a poor player and a rail-bitch.

Gonna be testing hagar secondary-only for hours tonight, and see wether its capable making mass destruction, as you stated

The TAG is a great strong + defensive weapon which one can put in map areas you want a defender to have an advantage.

Check out the position of the great strong TAG, its not mine but the statistic of hundreds of players, providing thousands of kills, that is a good statistcal base. Maybe its just my eyes but its at the bottom of all pickable weapons (that can cause damage), the first negetive one, with a quite decent, 0.07 gap between this and the prevorious one over it. So it means that its more likely to die with tag against any weapons.

Code: Select all

Code:

  Nex                             0.57479 |   .    +0.203 +0.307 +0.397 +0.336 +0.583 +0.233 +0.644 +0.632 +0.493 +0.527 +0.854 +1.000   .   
  Mortar                          0.34255 | -0.203   .    +0.278 +0.143 +0.068 +0.133 +0.067 +0.297 +0.125 +0.455 +0.546 +0.500   .      .   
  Camping Rifle                   0.30819 | -0.307 -0.278   .    +0.360 +0.200 +0.333 -0.200 +0.222 +0.226 +0.522 +0.253 +0.710 +1.000   .   
  Hagar                           0.25297 | -0.397 -0.143 -0.360   .    +0.041 -0.083 +0.351 +0.167 +0.273 +0.405 +0.500 +0.520   .      .   
  Rocket Launcher                 0.23945 | -0.336 -0.068 -0.200 -0.041   .    +0.035 +0.097 +0.083 +0.254 +0.288 +0.395 +0.606 +1.000   .   
  Heavy Laser Assault Cannon      0.18601 | -0.583 -0.133 -0.333 +0.083 -0.035   .    +0.278 -0.083 +0.120 +0.312 +0.444 +0.429   .      .   
  Uzi                             0.15160 | -0.233 -0.067 +0.200 -0.351 -0.097 -0.278   .    -0.231 -0.071 +0.256 +0.220 +0.618   .      .   
  Crylink                         0.11499 | -0.644 -0.297 -0.222 -0.167 -0.083 +0.083 +0.231   .    +0.222 -0.158 +0.158 +0.565   .      .   
  Electro                         0.05249 | -0.632 -0.125 -0.226 -0.273 -0.254 -0.120 +0.071 -0.222   .    +0.111 +0.118 +0.429   .      .   
  T.A.G. Seeker                  -0.02923 | -0.493 -0.455 -0.522 -0.405 -0.288 -0.312 -0.256 +0.158 -0.111   .    +0.099 +0.538   .      .   
  Shotgun                        -0.10689 | -0.527 -0.546 -0.253 -0.500 -0.395 -0.444 -0.220 -0.158 -0.118 -0.099   .    +0.237   .    +1.000
  Laser                          -0.35418 | -0.854 -0.500 -0.710 -0.520 -0.606 -0.429 -0.618 -0.565 -0.429 -0.538 -0.237   .      .      .   
  Port-O-Launch                  -0.62586 | -1.000   .    -1.000   .    -1.000   .      .      .      .      .      .      .      .      .   
  Grappling Hook                 -1.10689 |   .      .      .      .      .      .      .      .      .      .    -1.000   .      .      .   

divVerent, are there any updates on this statistic, and if yes, could you refresh the post you made about weapon balance please? These were so interesting facts to look at.

I also perfectly agree with anyone if he comes up with: "Its too late to make such a sudden and quite big change, that has certainly much influence on maps", thats why I wouldnt open a thread on this idea, but i think it worth a deep discussion later with many tests.

Anyway, I just wanted to point out this fact with some mathematical proof that the TAG in its current state is quite ineffective. Seems like it can be done without a half-page-long cursing-spam

monoweaponist

Triweaponist: laser, nex, rocketlaucher.

I also perfectly agree with anyone if he comes up with: "Its too late to make such a sudden and quite big change, that has certainly much influence on maps", thats why I wouldnt open a thread on this idea, but i think it worth a deep discussion later with many tests.

Translation: "It is acceptable that my desired change not make it into 2.5 because there is no time, but it will make it into svn after that, I will push and push and push and post and post and post untill my WILL triumphs over all. I will then make a nexuiz movie about this and will have Uwe Boll narrate it in his native tounge. It will be inspiring"

He's not going to stop till he gets his way.

Mike USA can you pls stop talking about the NOTHING?

It is not only his desire. Try to read again this thread and u will notice that many players here agree with franco's idea. Simply because it is an idea that makes Nexuiz better!

1 useful weapon is better than 2 unuseful weapons. This is the point.

And i push me too for this change beacause it is a thing perfectly reasonable. Not because it's my will, but because the game could be really better!

Summary:
You all suck and force your will on this game. Players are retarded as is this community however the developers rules.

Other stuff was removed due to possible future provocation and spam.

I think we should remove ALL weapon options if the player selects a female character model. FUCK what the players want, women shouldn't play with men's toys.

Shoe wrote:I think we should remove ALL weapon options if the player selects a female character model. FUCK what the players want, women shouldn't play with men's toys.

Given that Terrance would like to remove a weapon from the game... he might agree to something like that... though I'm sure he and others would like to keep just the RL the Nex and the laser. Terrance, AI, and Faustsomething do not want you to have the option of having a TAG seeker or a hagar in your maps, they also are too lazy to make their own server mod with their combination... so they NEED for your options to become alittle more limited so that they can get what they want (and force it on everyone else... you know otherwise they would have to roll their own little weapon mod for their servers... they don't want to have to do THAT (work)).

First of all. The TAG is so far on the bottom because mostly noobs use it at the moment. It is VERY strong, but requires good aim. All 4 rockets together kill a player (total damage: 160).

However, the coolness factor of the homing missiles just can't be denied, and it is that that makes players use it in situations for which it simply does not work. Also, it makes every noob attracted to this weapon.

Anyway, why I am totally against merging these two weapons is that this would require weakening the Hagar mode a LOT - so much that it isn't anything special any more, and you'd rather use the Uzi in about any case. So by this merge, you'd basically end up with the TAG, and another useless fire mode (so we'd be back at square one). The TAG would stay as is, and the Hagar would simply be eliminated for its uselessness after the merge.

If you insist on merging the TAG with another weapon, suggest another one than the already insanely strong Hagar.

A better suggestion would be inventing a new secondary mode for the Hagar. We had "fast thrown grenades" and now we have "bouncing missiles". Other stuff to try might be, for example, sticky mines that go off when someone gets near them (or after a timeout, or when too many are spammed/clustered together). As long as this secondary mode isn't too strong, it wouldn't wreck weapon balance.

By the way, LordHavoc is absolutely against the Seeker, and would indeed like to see it removed (or rather, never having been added at all). The problem is that a homing missile simply should not be in a first person shooter that's based on skill. However, he found out about the weapon way after tZork committed it, so it will stay.

Other stuff to try might be, for example, sticky mines that go off when someone gets near them (or after a timeout, or when too many are spammed/clustered together).

That's a really good idea .

The problem is that a homing missile simply should not be in a first person shooter that's based on skill. However, he found out about the weapon way after tZork committed it, so it will stay.

It transfers the requirement for skill to the adversary . I really love going up against the TAG: it makes me have to doge, jump behind things, get through doors before the rockets hit... really gets the heart going and makes that part of the match fun. I love difficulty, especily that kind of delayed difficulty (as in, OH HERE THEY COME!!).

One thing we must always remeber is that no one has to place all of the weapons in his map (and if he does, they can be easily switched out with the swap commands). The mapper can really control the strategy of the map to an extent based on his selection of weapons and where he puts them. This makes having a variety of diffrent working weapons a great thing for the mapper.

I already suggested the sticky proximity mines for the hagar secondary, and the answer was that we already have electro, thats one of the reasons why I came up with weapon merging................... Their lifetime will be really cruscial to be set well: too short doesnt have so much point i think.
Proxy mines would redefine the playing tactics in every game-type, in CTF you could spam the known camping places before even campers would arrive there for example. (lol in 1on1 mines waiting for you on every spawnspot )

--FraNcoTirAdoR-- wrote:I already suggested the sticky proximity mines for the hagar secondary, and the answer was that we already have electro, thats one of the reasons why I came up with weapon merging................... Their lifetime will be really cruscial to be set well: too short doesnt have so much point i think.
Proxy mines would redefine the playing tactics in every game-type, in CTF you could spam the known camping places before even campers would arrive there for example. (lol in 1on1 mines waiting for you on every spawnspot )

Long timeout-mine would be cool I think aswell. On my server, I'm sure I'd set it to very long .

Oh, and of course totally unrelated to this thread: I would *really* appreciate if people could refrain from asking other people to perform self-centric sexual intercourse or to demand other people to pass away.

In general it *is* possible to communicate an opinion without resorting to verbal violence and I'd like to encourage everyone to check this out.

One strong use of the tag is to take out turrets or other stationary objects. Pop out from cover, tag the target and take cover again. rockets usually hit anyway. Its also meant to be a bit of a tactical nuke - when you see that someone is laying down fire with it you think twice abt getting to close since the rockets hurt and are hard to shake (or at least intended to be..).

I don't mind removing the TAG if LordHavoc thinks its too off character for this game. I didn't know he felt this strongly against it or that he even follow/care with what's going on in Nexuiz these days.

Just abt every suggestion here have been tried to some extent in mods i made in the past. for the most part they where either useless, to disruptive or hard to use. Of course there are proly better ways to do it then the way i did. One feature of tmod (later zany) that did work, and i kinda liked, where mines. The way i did it it was not a weapon mode, but worked like q2's hand grenades (if you have rocket ammo, hit a key and you drop a mine) Another thing i loved, but again a bit disruptive , where exploding ammo. shoot ammo pick-ups for a big boom =)

Anyone who doesn't like the tag can very easily remove it with the server side weapon swap command. This is not a problem. Those who like the tag get to use the tag, those who don't can remove it. Choice is good in these instances.

tZork: your features sound great, could you make mutators of them? (xplode ammo mutator, mine mutator.) That way servers who like those features could enable them. Choice is good.

I love the tag btw: it really allows some difficulty in the game . Before it came along nexuiz was becoming pretty boring on the playing front (but still fun to design for).