I know that changing a bunch of models was a last minute 'surprise' to the community but releasing them and freezing at the same time only means that nexuiz in only truly 'open' to the 4 or 5 'core' developers. IMHO. Until the SVN build 4 noobs i never bothered with the svn version and most people still don't. We can test things thoroughly in an open way and still have people awed by all the new stuff in the releases. Only a minority builds the svn version. I don't think enough feedback (no revisions afaik) were allowed to occur preceding this major change. The fact that they are awesome is irrelevant. It's just like the changes to the machinegun (ballistic) physics, which i'll also have to live with.

I would settle for even a community of testers. At least it would mean that enough feedback is there.
Put nexuiz in front of someone who never played it before and you'll be surprised what they say about it.

PS. Morfar, tZork and div are still most awesome.

ihsan wrote:I know that changing a bunch of models was a last minute 'surprise' to the community but releasing them and freezing at the same time only means that nexuiz in only truly 'open' to the 4 or 5 'core' developers. IMHO. Until the SVN build 4 noobs i never bothered with the svn version and most people still don't. We can test things thoroughly in an open way and still have people awed by all the new stuff in the releases. Only a minority builds the svn version. I don't think enough feedback (no revisions afaik) were allowed to occur preceding this major change.

I told morphed the same. But he wanted it to be a "surprise" for the next release, and is already disappointed enough that it now got "leaked" prior to the release by the beta build.

We'll probably need another modeler - one who DOES care for open source. I doubt we can change morphed.

It's just like the changes to the machinegun (ballistic) physics, which i'll also have to live with.

No, it's already changed back (only the curve is ballistic now, it still hits instantly). Only a visual change, except you have to slightly adjust for gravity at long distances.

Tnx for the zeal of awesomeness ihsan, but im afraid my reply may change that opinion.

First off I don't see what the heck sharing your work before you see fit to do so has to do with open source. For me OSS is sharing the source of your work so ppl can thinker with and improve it.

And if you don't bother to build from source yourself, how does it even matter? How can you possibly test a half finished model? There are tons of changes in svn most ppl don't know abt, and there's no common plan for what to add or change.

Yeh they got in more or less at the same time as the freeze, but what else should a freeze be for? Now there is a bit of time to test how well it works and in worse case revert some. Its not like the the last release ever either.

Since there's no common plan for what to add or change in each release ppl work on the things they enjoy or see necessary. I don't agree with this ideological borderline fanatical attitude that ppl committing their free time to developing something has to do this in total disclosure. I do this development because I enjoy it, i think that's what motivates most ppl to work on something like this. Flaming someone for contributing a massive price of work like redoing most of the weapons, their textures and animation will surely remove a good chunk of that fun factor.

I could go on with this rant for a long time and in much stronger words, but it would serve little purpose.

I would like a official standpoint from this on behalf of the project management, if everything is to be testable by everyone beforehand there needs to be a clear statement that says so. and proly a development plan to follow.

divVerent wrote:I told morphed the same. But he wanted it to be a "surprise" for the next release, and is already disappointed enough that it now got "leaked" prior to the release by the beta build.

We'll probably need another modeler - one who DOES care for open source. I doubt we can change morphed.
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very wise words from creator of hidden developer channel and someone who says that discussing stuff on the forum is entirely pointless.

after nice tZorks post, there is nothing really to add, he said everything I wanted to say

Yes, this is what this community creates.

morphed's motivation was so he doesn't get annoyed by people who complain about it all the time.

The hidden developer channel had to be because you guys put too much load on me. Whatever's done and you don't like it, you make it seem like MY fault. That was simply too much for me. It simply was an attempt to get away from all your demanding and complaining and general annoyance, and focus on the GAME. I simply wanted to stop being free first level support for everyone, and there was no other way to do that (other than kickbanning like half of #alientrap).

OMG i'm an annoying-forum-noob-programmer.
Just keep the TODO page on the Dev Wiki up to date, and maybe put major things officially being worked on as "in progress" or something. If you guys need a secretary let me know.

I didn't really mean to flame anyone. Sounded worse than i intended now that i re-read the post. Seriously, if I had a million dollars i'd pay you guys to just do this all day, and maybe another guy to make the mods i want.

The "you guys" didn't include you, sorry, but the major flamers on, e.g., the CTF thread. You're more like one of the poor guys who has to suffer for the three loud guys who make life hell for the developers.

ihsan wrote:OMG i'm an annoying-forum-noob-programmer.
Just keep the TODO page on the Dev Wiki up to date, and maybe put major things officially being worked on as "in progress" or something. If you guys need a secretary let me know.

I didn't really mean to flame anyone. Sounded worse than i intended now that i re-read the post. Seriously, if I had a million dollars i'd pay you guys to just do this all day, and maybe another guy to make the mods i want.

Do you have time for updating the TODO list on the Wiki ? We already have feature request tracker on sourceforge.net, but I think that keeping this list updated with the major goals or areas where help is needed should be really great. Specially for redirecting there whoever wants to contribute with the project.

Maybe a task for the nexuiz news guys?

Both div and morphed have good reasons to do some things in a more private context, as already stated above. Given that any change to the game is visible as soon as it enters SVN this isn't an evil plot of a secret underground organization - plus there are beta releases anyway before things go official. If morphed would have to ask for community permission for every polygon during modelling and div for every single feature and gameplay change, things would be moving nowhere. Both div and morphed are really devoted to improve the game (thanks a lot for that) and give the community something enjoyable, but you can only discuss things with a limited number of people, especially if a vocal *minority* of the community suffers from ADNCWPA (Annoying and Disruptive Nagging Complete With Personal Attacks) Syndrome.

As for morphed's "surprise element" - I wonder if the SVN build system should be intentionally broken in svn trunk, and then everyone forced to redownload. The new SVN build system will then check out from the stable branch, so temporary SVN brokenness won't affect it.

looking forward to the surprise.

developing secret features is totaly ok in open source. sure, it should not be the usual way, because early feedback is important. but for certain things like models, thats totaly ok and not in conflict with open source.

and i wont download the "beta", so i will have the surprise. 90% of the nexuiz gamers probably will see the surprise only in the final version anyway, so no worries there.

keep up the good work